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Would Biden's decisions as President be different from Obama's? Or are all Politicians the same?

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quantass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 03:28 AM
Original message
Would Biden's decisions as President be different from Obama's? Or are all Politicians the same?
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 03:31 AM by quantass
Sorry i am very sleepy right now and so my writing will likely be a big mess of sorts so here goes...

I was reading the article in Rolling Stone about "Obama's Big Sellout" and it got me thinking back to the primaries. It's odd because to me the decisions Obama has made thus far is precisely in line with how i would've expected Hillary Clinton would have governed if she had been elected (and why i wouldnt have voted for her). I would have expected Obama to be genuinely for the left, not so center-right.

So, i began thinking about Biden. I read somewhere that Biden is not a big fan of the whole Afghan thing and also he seems to have more genuine empathy for the people since he has experienced some serious tragedies in his life.....so can someone tell me...if Biden was President (in an alternate reality) what would his decisions be like? Would he be as eager to hire the same people that caused the financial disaster into his cabinet? Or not be supportive of a Public Option that the majority of the public desperately want? Or repeatedly appease the right with nothing in return but lost opportunities?

Who is Joe Biden? I wonder because well are all politicians the same?

It really would be cool to see a Chenny-esque Liberal as President since although Chenny was a true Dick you can't help but respect the man's passion to get things done! Shame it was for evil...btw why is it when you have someone with such passion never for progressively good things?!?

Anyway, I was watching this great film an hour a go called "V for Vendetta" and i really do feel for America because it just doesnt feel that the people truly do have their entire voices heard. Eventually things will improve since it can only get so worse before the people rise with their pitchforks...until then Wall Street will continue to celebrate with tax-free dollars from the generously corrupt Federal Reserve.

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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
1.  there's such a judgmental portion of society that focuses on wedge issues and likes dividing
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 03:38 AM by Divine Discontent
the nation. I believe there are some very good guys & gals out there that would be more progressive, of course, than what we have. Of course what we have is better than what the main alternative was, but that's not the point - we should have a progressive president after those 8 horrible war mongering, spying, corporate loving years. instead, in too many ways, we have more of the same, because too many try to get re-elected by pleasing the center.


and about the movie -
V is in all of us... it was a great film. I wish everyone would watch it.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting questions, quantass.
VP Biden understands the workings of DC better than most, and he's been 'inside' for his entire career. I don't think its useful to think about who is or would be further left or more center, as there's such a variety of decisions that must be made. I'm going to post your questions at the Joe Biden forum, so my friends there will have a chance to think about them.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. Impossible to say, but here is the best I can do
On foreign policy, Biden was among the Democratic centrists when he was in the Senate. On the Foreign Relations Committee, Kerry, Boxer and Feingold were almost always the leftmost contingent - sometimes joined by Dodd. In 2006, Obama often backed the Kerry, Boxer, Feingold group. Judging just from that, I would have thought Biden more likely a liberal hawk. (Especially after a 2005 CFR speech where he praised the ideas of Bush's second inaugural address. Spreading democracy was the neo-con idea.)

Now, Biden and Obama, explicitly reject the idea of "spreading democracy" as a goal in Afghanistan, while HRC sometimes still goes that far - than backtracks. (a recent example was in speaking on Afghanistan where the backtrack was saying that it could happen.) This is significant as it is a big move to reject the American views that what we have is the only right thing and that we are "good at fixing things." In addition, one shift in foreign policy where the verdict is not yet in, is shown in the Kerry/Lugar/Berman bill that greatly expanded civilian aid to Pakistan. This effort had its start in conversations between Kerry, Biden and Hagel after an eventful trip where they both went to see US efforts to aid earthquake victims in Pakistan and on their Afghan oversight mission ended up with a forced landing due to snow in the mountains. All three backed this approach - and, while I have my personal guess which one led in proposing this - as he was on record years before for such a policy, there is no way to know. More importantly, Biden agreed and it was the SFRC back it as the Biden/Lugar bill.

On domestic issues, Biden was never one of the most liberal Senators - he was not a Kennedy or Leahy - and he sponsored the awful bankruptcy bills. I do know that Delaware is where many of the big credit care companies operate out of. That did NOT mean that he had to give the credit cards all that they wanted rejecting every limitation Kennedy wanted to the bill. He could have acted as the fulcrum between Ted Kennedy and the combination of the industries and the Republicans to moderate it. He was an entrenched political figure, who, at that time, was Senator for life, if he wanted it. Had he done that, I would argue that he had shown skills that boded well for negotiating the Democratic domestic agenda.

This is not to say that there is not a lot of good on the domestic issues. His name is on the bill against violence to women and he was one of the few Senators that kept at least one foot in the middle class ethnic part of the Democratic party. He very eagerly backed Kerry's high speed rail proposal - likely helping assure parts of it ending up in the stimulus bill. On global warming, one different pillar supporting the need to do it was the national security need to do so - Biden, at Kerry's request, held the first hearing on that in 2007 when we regained the leadership. Unlike 2000 or 2004, none of the 2008 candidates were people with any long term record supporting this effort, but Biden and Dodd were stronger than any of the 3 main candidates - who mostly echoed words from 2004, because it was political to do so.

It is hard to know the economic team that Biden would have picked. There would have been pressure on him by the party to pick the Democratic "experts" - and most of the people who had done the job and were young enough to want to do it again were the Clinton people. Just looking at Biden's choices of committees, he never was on Banking, Finance, or Commerce. Now, Senators can be on only a limited number of committees, but it is clear these were not the areas where he had concentrated. This might mean that he would be more likely to take advise from the party. The counter is that his economic adviser is to the left of all the Geitner, Summers group.

But, this is all pretty irrelevant. In 2008, there was no way that Biden came close to getting any lift. Even though the Washington Post and someone in TIME who loved him, the ONLY Democrat I ever heard discuss him when asked about 2008 was John Kerry - who in addition to Obama and Clinton also often mentioned Dodd and Biden in 2007. (He praised all 4, he did not mention Edwards at all) Biden tried running, not just in 1988 and 2008, but he tested the waters in 2004. In 2004, he generated less interest than he did in 2008. The reality is that our choice in 2008 was Clinton or Obama. (I actually think TPTB wanted Clinton/Obama but the Obama people aided by the Kerry/Kennedy wing outmaneuvered them.)
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hileeopnyn8d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I really love your posts!
You really put earnest effort into your responses.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Thank you for the kind compliment nt
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Great post. Very informative.
:applause:
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. I'm bookmarking your post - what an insightful overview you've presented! Thanks! nt
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Coming from you, this means a huge amount
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. The "film" V sucked.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think you misunderstand both Obama and Biden's postions.....
.... Obama said during the election that he'd "finish the fight with al qaeda" (do I REALLY need to get you a quote at this point?)

And the only info we have that Biden was against any troop escalation in Afghanistan is speculation. What we DO have is the Vice President whole-heartedly speaking up in favor of it on national television. Not just last week, but since last fall. The fact that we've latched on to a couple of articles that speculate that he was NOT in favor of it while we ignore what he's said all along is amusing to say the least.

The articles speculate that he wanted more of the focus in Pakistan. Yesterday, one of our drones killed a top al qaeda leader ..... in Pakistan. Maybe it's not an either/or thing?

As for Cheney .... what he did was completely perpendicular to the powers assigned to the Vice President in the Constitution. The fact that we now what these change agents we've elected to take up the same path .... um, no.
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hileeopnyn8d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. I don't really have
an answer to your first question, but in a way you answered your second question yourself.

Or are all Politicians the same?

It really would be cool to see a Chenny-esque Liberal as President since although Chenny was a true Dick you can't help but respect the man's passion to get things done! Shame it was for evil...

Somewhat off-topic - But I've grown to really hate this sentiment. Because, as I see it, wanting a Cheney-esque liberal as President would mean wanting someone who was willing to circumvent our laws, our Constitution and our rights.

The ironic thing is, the right believes that things like the stimulus, cap and trade, and ANY public healthcare do just that, and that therefore, Obama is that person.

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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
8. It is very hard to speculate because so far, Biden likes to offer Obama
contrary views or play the Devil's advocate (or what we know from articles, who really does know what goes on in these WH meetings?). As a President, you make the final decision and ask others for advice so the role would change and it is kind of hard to tell.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
13. 1. We'll never know. 2. All politicians aren't Obama and/or Biden. nt
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
14. I just posted a thread about Biden (on Afghanistan):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7203244

Biden's major strength is his FP experience. He has a FEEL for it, I believe, that's a result of his many years in the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. I remember that both Musharraf and Bhutto called Biden once before they called Bush. He knows the players.

During his short-lived presidential campaign, he had a proposal to exit Iran (to do it politically rather than militarily), and wanted to focus more on Afghanistan. Since then, he's come to the opinion that Pakistan is where we need to focus.

So, in the Afghanistan instance, it's my conjecture that he would not have escalated troops in Afghanistan and instead have manuvered them towared Pakistan.

I think Biden is not afraid to change his mind/stance as situations change and different goals are needed. I believe he has expressed that he favors a single-payer option for health care, so in my alternate reality with Biden as POTUS, I think he would have somehow gotten that through - or at the very least a "robust public option". He has many friends in the Senate from both sides of the aisle, and has the experience in negotiating with them.

I do believe he has a strong empathy for people (not saying that Obama doesn't). I've seen him speak on benefits for veterans and support for our troops and he is PASSIONATE about it. And this was before his son enlisted and was sent to Iraq.

Have no clue if he would have hired the same money people, but in the areas of Afghanistan and Health Reform, I'm pretty confident that he would have moved in different directions than Obama has.


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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Biden would start a war accidentally whereas Obama does it intentionally.
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. On foreign policy, Biden has been right re: Pakistan. n/t
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27inCali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. I would of voted for Biden if he had made it far enough
not that I don't like Obama, he's great and all, and him choosing Biden definitely was a big plus for me.

But I think Biden would have been better.
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