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Excellent analysis- Obama's Nobel speech:"Do conservatives know what they're embracing?" answer = NO

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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:18 PM
Original message
Excellent analysis- Obama's Nobel speech:"Do conservatives know what they're embracing?" answer = NO
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 12:29 PM by Pirate Smile
Do conservatives know what they're embracing

I'm surprised and somewhat amused by the conservative laurels being strewn at Obama's feet over the Nobel lecture. It really makes me wonder what they heard. I think I know.

The speech was classic Niebuhrian liberal internationalism.
Fred Kaplan of Slate delivered a thorough take-out on that angle here. If you know anything about the kind of 1940s liberal internationalism with which Neibuhr is associated (and Arthur Schlesinger and George Kennan, say), and if you're familiar with Obama's previous speeches and remarks on these matters, he said very little in Oslo that was new or surprising.

He has always been much closer in his views to 1948 liberal foreign policy principles than 1968 ones,
if you know what I mean. The surprise -- the happy surprise among conservatives, and the anger among some on the left -- says less about Obama than it does about the presumptions of listeners in both camps.

This in turn reflects how grotesquely distorted our foreign policy debates became over the course of this decade. By this I mean chiefly that a person's position on Iraq became -- in the popular press, among politicians, and even among some intellectuals who should have known better -- the criterion on which one was judged to be either a hawk or a dove, a hard or a soft.

Democrats who supported the war like Joe Lieberman, and commentators who supported that view such as Peter Beinart, appropriated -- I would say, and have repeatedly said, utterly misappropriated -- the legacy of 1948-style liberalism by arguing in essence that the Truman-Acheson-Kennan-Niebuhr position was to support the war. This was historically, factually, intellectually and morally wrong, as Beinart, to his credit, has since acknowledged.


The most amusing (but also sickening) manifestation of this to me at the time, late 2002, was this: Kennan himself was still alive and against the war; and yet, modern-day liberal hawks, and conservatives, ignored this. One person even emailed me after one of my rants on this subject: C'mon, Michael -- Kennan is not a Kennanite.

Conservatives, meanwhile -- and some liberal hawks -- argued, and alas quite successfully, that everyone who opposed the Iraq war was a hopeless pacifist, a weak leftist, out of the mainstream, etc. Bill Kristol even came up with the idea of calling us Villepinistes, after the anti-war French foreign minister at the time.

In other words, the legacy into which Obama most naturally fits was distorted. Because he opposed Iraq, and because he incorporated into his policy some of the soft-power liberal internationalist priorities like the primacy of diplomacy, the right came to think of him as a dreaded Villepiniste.

The left, meanwhile...well, maybe some people just assumed that because he's black and kinda third-worldly that he had more Fanon in him than he has. And people on the left, too, joined in the assumptions about support or opposition to Iraq as a marker, and many probably thought, well, he was against Iraq, so that must mean he shares our (negative) assumptions about the imperialistic underpinnings of American projection of power and our opposition to American military force in virtually all instances.

But there is no evidence Obama has ever believed that. People just didn't listen to his speeches or read his interviews. They heard what they wanted to hear.

There was nothing neoconservative about the speech. He's continuing the war that was handed to him. As he always -- always -- said he would. But there was nothing in there to suggest that he would embrace the Bush Doctrine or so-called preventive war. If conservatives want to entertain the fantasy that that was in there, that's their choice. But a "just war" quite explicitly can be fought only to redress a wrong actually perpetrated. Afghanistan, yes (to many of us anyway). Iraq, certainly not.

And by the same token, Obama said, admittedly more emphatically than previously, what he has always said but what the left has never wanted to hear. On foreign policy, he is not a 1960s or 70s liberal. He's a 1940s liberal.

So he is undertaking here nothing less than a re-centering of American foreign policy theory, forcing the defenestration of the false categories of the Bush years and trying to reintroduce into our discourse that older foreign policy liberalism, which has been largely abandoned within the architecture of both political parties -- the Republicans because they've moved so far to the right; and the Democrats not so much because they've moved so far to the left, but because on the whole Democrats just kind of stopped thinking really seriously about foreign policy after Vietnam.

If neocons want to applaud that in the short term, it's fine by me. But he is not one of them.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2009/dec/11/conservatives-obama-nobel-speech
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Damn, an actual intelligent assessment of Obama's speech.
And one that also takes into account the grossly oversimplified assumptions made about it. This should be required reading on DU.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I'm trying.
:)
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Yes it should be required reading
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Kdillard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Amen.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. HE'S A WAAAARRRRMMONGEERRRRRRRR!!!!
:gargoyles:
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is not a good analysis
this is an excellent analysis. This part needs to be repeated:

The left, meanwhile...well, maybe some people just assumed that because he's black and kinda third-worldly that he had more Fanon in him than he has.


Whoops, there it is.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. OK - I changed the subject line to Excellent from Good.
:hi:

I was looking for some substantive analysis instead of just emotional reactions AND I was trying to find out how it was viewed in Europe (I still haven't seen much about that yet).
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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Bingo!
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 01:28 PM by Undercurrent
Great overall analysis in the OP, and this sentence is indicative of an even broader view by many on the left who are "Shocked, shocked I tell ya!" that Obama somehow misrepresented himself during the primary and general. He did not. People just heard what they wanted to hear, latched onto msm bumper sticker headlines, and reacted to Repub talking points. There are low information voters on both ends of the spectrum.


*typo edit*


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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. About damn time that someone will point
the hidden-racism from the Left towards Barack Obama.
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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I share that thought.
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 02:37 PM by Undercurrent
"He's a black guy. He must be like that other* black guy" (*fill in the blank: Fanon, MLK, other). Uninformed people on both the left, and right fell into this trap.


**typo edit**


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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Hah...one of my favorite lines..."third worldy" what the hell, love it. n/t
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. I said the same thing, that all the Conservatives and neocons who are praising
his speech, saying BUSH could've given it, don't know what they're talking about. Bush never would've said we need our allies, we need to uphold our values by closing Gitmo and not torturing, etc. I expected those RWers not to get that, but for the DUers to not get it is disappointing.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yep, once again the conservatives cherry pick
for their own advantage.

And some at DU do too.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The only one that didn't like (that I heard about) it is John Bolton.
He had nothing but insults and criticism for the speech, especially the parts where Obama said we need our allies and we will not torture. Leave it to Bolton to see those things as BAD things.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Bolton is a mental basket case,
with an ego that gets in the way of even that at times.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. as only he would
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
41. Amen to that one Tabatha
I like your name by the way :pals:
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. Most Conservatives don't have the tools to
understand half of what Obama say. Not only in this speech, but in most of his speeches. Sadly, i find more and more that many "progressives" don't understand him either.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You're sadly right about the many "progressives" who don't understand him, either.
They're as simple-minded as the RWers who thought Bush's speechwriters could've written this speech (which Obama mostly wrote HIMSELF).
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. As you can see here:
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. The usual suspects-slamming Obama while totally misunderstanding one of the
best (and most complex) speeches of his presidency. I can see why the RWers and blind haters on the extreme left hated it.
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. I agree
I just wrote in another thread, that his speech was one that FDR, Truman or even Kennedy could have approved or possibly even written.
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Kennedy for sure
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. This is *exactly*
what Andrew Sullivan said:

I am staggered that so many neoconservatives and conservatives seemed shocked and enthused by the address. This does not, it seems to me, reflect on the address's novelty for Obama. Nothing in it was very different from anything he has said before. Distilling it all in one 36 minute address may have clarified it for his opponents. But I have to say their welcome applause merely reveals that they have not been listening for so many months. They still do not grasp the president we have or the seriousness he has brought to the tragic dimension of a moral foreign policy in an immoral world at a perilous time. I asked Obama in the campaign about some of this. Here's a response worth recalling from more than two years ago:

Barack Obama: You know, reading Niebuhr, or Tillich or folks like that—those are the people that sustain me. What I believe in is overcoming - but not eliminating - doubt and questioning. I don't believe in an easy path to salvation. For myself or for the world. I think that it’s hard work, being moral. It's hard work being ethical. And I think that it requires a series of judgments and choices that we make every single day. And part of what I want to do as president is open up a conversation in which we are honestly considering our obligations - towards each other. And obligations towards the world.

Andrew Sullivan: But you don't think we're ever going to be saved on this earth do you?

Barack Obama: No. I think it's a ... we're a constant work in progress. I think God put us here with the intention that we break a sweat trying to be a little better than we were yesterday.


"A little better than we were yesterday." Whatever that is, it is not utopian or liberal except in the deepest, Niebuhrian sense. Obama has never been a pacifist. Never. His opposition to the Iraq war, as he said at the time, was not because he was against all war, but because he was against a dumb war. He is, in so many ways, a Niebuhrian realist. And with Niebuhr, there is the deeper sense that even though there is no ultimate resolution in favor of good over evil on this earth in our lifetimes, we still have a duty to try. It is this effort in the full knowledge of ultimate failure on earth that is the moral calling. It is to do what we can, knowing that it will never be enough.

The problem with Bush's foreign policy was that it was based on a "doctrine" which is never a good thing to base any politics on; that it was far too sanguine about the power of good in the world; far too crude about the role of culture and history in limiting the universal appeal of Western freedom; far too reckless in deploying resources without any concern for their limits; and so convinced of its own righteousness that it could even authorize the absolute evil of torture in pursuit of the absolute good of freedom. Bush was riddled with all the hubris, arrogance, rationalism and utopianism of the worst kind of liberalism. Obama is not a Tory realist; he still believes in the slow, uncertain march of human enlightenment. But he sure isn't a Bush-style or Carter-style utopian. And he is such a deeper, calmer spirit than Clinton's always-maneuvring mind.

These are desperately dangerous times. They are dangerous primarily because religion has been abused by those seeking power and control over others - both in the mild version of Christianism at home and the much, much more pernicious and evil Islamism abroad. They are dangerous because the fusion of this kind of religious certainty with the sheer power of technological destruction now available could bring the planet to catastrophe if we are not very, very careful. Very few moments in history have required an Augustinian statesmanship as much as now.

This is why I have supported this unlikely man for several years now. Two quotes from Niebuhr help illuminate why. The first:

"The task of building a world community is man’s final necessity and possibility, but also his final impossibility. It is a necessity and possibility because history is a process which extends the freedom of man over natural process to the point where universality is reached. It is an impossibility because man is, despite his increasing freedom, a finite creature, wedded to time and place and incapable of building any structure of culture or civilization which does not have its foundations in a particular and dated locus."

That is our task now. How do we find the motivation to accomplish it? Niebuhr again:


Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; there we must be saved by hope.

Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; there we must be saved by faith.

Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.

No virtuous act is quite as virtuous from the standpoint of our friend or foe as it is from our own standpoint.

Therefore we must be saved by the final form of love which is forgiveness."



http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/12/the-tragedy-of-hope.html



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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
42. This is what is scary
These are desperately dangerous times. They are dangerous primarily because religion has been abused by those seeking power and control over others - both in the mild version of Christianism at home and the much, much more pernicious and evil Islamism abroad. They are dangerous because the fusion of this kind of religious certainty with the sheer power of technological destruction now available could bring the planet to catastrophe if we are not very, very careful. Very few moments in history have required an Augustinian statesmanship as much as now.

I have no problem with religion in general, practice what you want. But the the abuse of religion to manipulate and seek power and control is what really is frightening. The far right in the US, the extremists in certain religions. They are one in the same. They are mind manipulators. Reminds me of a Simpson's Halloween special where Ned rules the world and Homer and his family get a lobotomy. It may seem funny (even on Fox of all places, the irony), but it's the equivalent of that. Don't think for yourself, education is evil, blah blah blah.

Ok, I'm done now.

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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
44. So Sullivan is saying Obama
is more like FDR then LBJ.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. I so appreciate threads from which I learn something.
They're rare these days...:hi:

K&R
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. "Democrats just kind of stopped thinking really seriously about foreign policy after Vietnam.
I'm off to read the link now, but that line offends me deeply. Diplomacy costs less blood and treasure by far than war.

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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
23. Excellent read. K&R
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. Michael Tomasky use to write political analysis for
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 04:04 PM by Cha
The New York Magazine and I've been reading him since 2002. I hadn't gotten around to wondering yet what all he thinks of PO's way of wrapping up Afghanistan but here he is!

I emailed him once a long time a ago about the New York Gov race and he wrote back.."watch out for Spitzer". So that was awhile ago.

When I saw all this cheering from the rw..I thought, "let them cheer it won't do them any good".

"The surprise -- the happy surprise among conservatives, and the anger among some on the left -- says less about Obama than it does about the presumptions of listeners in both camps."

Ain't that the truth!

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. The thing is that liberal international relations theory and neoconservatism have some similarities
Both clearly and unambiguously believe that spreading liberal democracy across the globe is a worthy goal. The difference is that liberals prefer soft power whenever possible and believe that building alliances is crucial. Neocons have no problem with using hard power and no problem acting alone.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
26. KnR. Not just one, but two articles in this thread that are good reads. Thanks for the nuance! nt
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
27. I have never seen this line from Kennedy but it sent a chill up my spine:
"Let us focus on a more practical, more attainable peace, based not on a sudden revolution in human nature but on a gradual evolution in human institutions."

One of the most effective critiques of pacifism, in my opinion. We didn't get to choose what we are - evolution made us one way and we must create the best world possible with what we have.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. That is a great quote.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. That is a good quote
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
31. What is this 1940s Liberal Internatinalism?! I have to find out more information. n/t
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. K&R
:thumbsup:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
33. kick nt
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
36. Wow. Intelligent, thought provoking, without being trollbait?
Nice to see this on DU.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
37. Tomasky leaves unmentioned the implicit strawman in Obama's speech.
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 10:17 PM by burning rain
Namely, the rejection of national security policy founded upon pacifism a la Gandhi, who of course opposed fighting even Hitler. Now, the number of Afghan escalation critics who are pacifists, is negligible. Exactly one member of Congress, Barbara Lee (D-Ca.), voted against the use of force in Afghanistan after 9/11. Tomasky appears to rely on the implication, made more humorously by Jon Stewart, that an Afghanistan policy that's neither neo-con meatheadness nor pacifist meatheadness, is ipso facto brilliant. That's setting the bar pretty low for brilliance, and it's intentional--as is omitting the specifics of the situation in Afghanistan.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
38. kick
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
39. As he always -- always -- said he would
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. That is what is so annoying about the reactions. RW'ers and pundits saying that he has been
"schooled" by 10 months of dealing with reality in the White House and has changed or "grown up" in his views. He hasn't changed. He's saying the same things he always said. They were just too clueless to listen. The RW'ers made him into a caricature and ignored what he always said. I guess some people on the left had assumed that caricature was true because they liked it.

It reminds me of a Oprah saying/quote (I know, I know but that is where I remember it from) - when someone tells you who they are - believe them.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
43. Also...do purity progressives know what they are rejecting? answer = NO.
n/t
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seeinfweggos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
45. what an absolutely fantastic analysis
i thought the speech was great.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
46. There are two very weak points to this analysis where the writer deftly avoids elaboration.
These points are both places where he comes dangerously close to having to discuss the Vietnam war, but turns away. They are:

"He has always been much closer in his views to 1948 liberal foreign policy principles than 1968 ones, if you know what I mean. The surprise -- the happy surprise among conservatives, and the anger among some on the left -- says less about Obama than it does about the presumptions of listeners in both camps."

and

"So he is undertaking here nothing less than a re-centering of American foreign policy theory, forcing the defenestration of the false categories of the Bush years and trying to reintroduce into our discourse that older foreign policy liberalism, which has been largely abandoned within the architecture of both political parties -- the Republicans because they've moved so far to the right; and the Democrats not so much because they've moved so far to the left, but because on the whole Democrats just kind of stopped thinking really seriously about foreign policy after Vietnam."


Starting with the first segment. No, I don't know what he means when he says when comparing liberal views of 1948 to 1968. Perhaps he means the views of the young as far as the hippies and peace movement are concerned, where there is a difference of views, but it is worthy of consideration that it is the generation of politicians who were cutting their teeth near the time of 1948 (LBJ, Humphrey, Nixon, JFK) carried on such interventionist policies into the era surrounding 1968, which is when these policies failed on a massive level. The domino theory is not essentially different than Truman's doctrine of containment. The problem is that it is an application of 1948 circumstances to 1968 reality, and in this case I would argue that the material conditions do not support the transferability of the approach. If we are looking at the leadership, the sad reality is that the 1948 policy has been pursued, by both parties to the point of failure. Although Nixon was of a different political party, he did not have an alternative approach and ended up continuing Johnson's war. The 1948 approach had become orthodox in both parties. The relevant question here is, are current circumstances conducive to its reintroduction? I will return to this question later.

The second segment attempts to describe the post Vietnam foreign policy methods of both political parties. Here he errs in his analysis in two manners. First he assumes that there was a divergence of policy between the two parties after Vietnam, and secondly rather than engage with what the conventional wisdom was after Vietnam, he simply declares that there was no liberal thinking about foreign policy after Vietnam. I propose looking at the era from Nixon's withdrawal from Vietnam to the election of George W Bush as the "Post Vietnam" era, which has two phases. The lynchpin to this era was Operation Desert Storm, with which the second segment of the era began.

Although the term "Vietnam Syndrome" was originally coined by Reagan to accuse Carter of inability to confront the Soviets, in reality both parties displayed an extreme reluctance to commit US forces to anything that could become a prolonged conflict. Although there were minor excursions into Granada and Panama, for all the swaggering talk Reagan really didn't have the nerve to get involved in a protracted war with the prospect of casualties (see Beirut bombing). Carter and Reagan both pursued Cold War conflicts through proxies rather than the direct intervention that had dominated from Truman to Nixon. These proxies are exactly what gave the Soviets their Afghan war defeat. But US policy was a clear avoidance of situations that risked significant casualties.

With the first Gulf War, the issue of direct intervention came up, and there was much discussion about Vietnam Syndrome again among the TV talking heads. Ultimately Bush settled on the Powell Doctrine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine which allowed for direct US involvement but set firm rules to assess the situation and avoid another Vietnam. Clinton followed this doctrine as well, with his general reluctance to put troops on the ground and preference for bombing (See Yugoslavia). Until George W. Bush came around, great care was taken by all presidents to avoid another Vietnam. Bush (or should I say Cheney) didn't give a fuck. Obama is left cleaning up this mess, but while the article denies that Obama is operating under Bush's schema (called Neocon), a demonstration is lacking. I'm willing to entertain the argument that the 1948 doctrine has a significant difference from the neocon approach, but this has yet to be demonstrated. I will wait for that demonstration.

Now to return to the big issue. Does the 1948 system of intervention apply? I'm going to say no. And here is my reasoning. In order to win a war, you have to make the realization of your enemy's goal impossible. the 1948 approach to intervention is largely the outgrowth of WWII, where the prevention of the enemy's goal was quite easy to conceptualize although it took a lot of work to pull off. Both Germany and Japan wanted national empires. In order to have an empire you need a functioning state capable of waging war. By the end of the war, neither Germany or Japan were able to wage war. Germany was unable to even maintain territorial integrity against the red army, and Japan had been brought to its knees and introduced to the real possibility of systematic nuclear annihilation. While I suppose one could argue that it would be possible for Germans and Japanese to fight a guerrilla war against occupation, it wouldn't really make sense. Even a successful resistance movement (not that the idea was popular) would not be able to create the kind of functioning modern military apparatus needed to pursue the original goal of empire. Move on to the Berlin blockade. Stalin's goal was a unified Germany, but one that was non-aligned in the cold war so that it would serve as a cordon sanitaire. How does one prevent that? Create a West German government out for the Western occupation zones. This effectively blocked Soviet plans, and they created an East German state with very difficult borders in response. Only with Korea did cracks begin to appear on the 1948 policy. Here both sides engaged to a nearly identical degree discovered that a draw was about the best they could hope for. Then with Vietnam, the US took a major defeat because our goal became much harder to realize than the prevention of our goal. We wanted to maintain a functioning South Vietnamese state, the Communists merely wanted us gone. So they killed some of us, we killed a lot of them. Eventually it became clear that there we could not prevail. So, what do our enemies want, and what do we want? We want to stabilize Afghanistan, while our enemies (and are they just Al Qaeda or also the Taliban) want us gone, they want to impose religious law, and are perfectly content to have the country made a shambles until we leave. The 1948 approach does not apply because we are dealing with an enemy far less ambitious than the post war USSR. Their goals are so much simpler to realize than ours.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 11:49 AM
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48. Thank you for that analysis.
"The 1948 approach does not apply because we are dealing with an enemy far less ambitious than the post war USSR. Their goals are so much simpler to realize than ours." And therein lie the seeds of tragedy.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 10:32 AM
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47. kick
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