I'm sick of the 'soldier worship' aspect of our society

[OKDem08]

You know you're being deceived when perception and reality do not concur.

The primary reason most join is due to lack of economic opportunity, not because of duty to country or lofty principles.

[backwoodsbob]

1. where do you see

soldier worship? :patriot:

[OKDem08]

2. haha ur funny

[RandomThoughts]

3. Yea that disgust me also.

I understand honoring people that act bravely and honorably within there best perception, but most of that is not to honor soldiers, but to make it look like soldiering is the most honorable thing.

It carries over to an assumption the wars are just and such, even if soldiers are doing the best within their perspective, not correcting that perspective is ridiculous.

Can't really blame the Soldiers though, it is just another form of prison.



You might also say the reason some want economic hardship is for them to sign up for an area of less choice and more followship of dictates from those that never fought themselves. Reminds me of the Samurai poets that never fought a day in their lives writing poems and creating a code of conduct using the respect of the Samurai that did fight.

[Union Scribe]

4. I see phony support, not worship

A lot of words and cheap slogans and cheaper ribbons, but no real thought or honest concern for them. If there was, a million people would be surrounding the White House telling Obama to bring them home now.

[BlueJac]

5. ditto

Generals at the Super Bowl coin toss flipped me out, followed by the fly over. I was looking for tanks to rollout at halftime!!!!!

[LiberalFighter]

6. Sort of reminiscent of the Soviet's with their high stepping military parades

laced with armaments used in war.

[awoke_in_2003]

16. it is getting to the point...

where the super bowl is getting unwatchable. When they started the halftime shows it all went downhill. Play the damn game, quit trying to attract people who don't normally watch (and thusly punishing those who do)

[2Design]

7. it glorifies war AND gives a sense of entitlement to every

service person - where they feel they should get jobs, homes, price breaks, etc above and beyond others - they have first rights at all state and federal jobs now

I don't like to hear they are wounded and not taken care of but that is a government that does not care and will not help - but this eternal the troops are great is tough on both the troops and those against the war

Too many wounded psychologically and physically for no DAMN good reason

The whole mess is sicken

How many children have lost a parent to this atrocity?

Saying we are winning is treating this like a football game
No one is winning anything
It is bankrupting this country

It is a lost of life on both sides and sucks

[MH1]

8. Big reason for 'soldier worship'? because the worshippers don't want to do it themselves.

So they make heroes of the people who did do it.

Until we have universal service in this country, where everyone* has to experience the reality, you will have soldier worship. (You may have it still, but at least there will be some personal experience tempering it for more people)

But on the flip side, some 'soldier worship' is deserved, in my opinion. (Disclaimer: I served 8 years). Why? because however and whyever they got there, once they're in, they're trained, usually successfully, to stand in the line of fire for YOU. Or as the nutty colonel said in A Few Good Men, imo correctly (even if the character was an asshole): they stand on the wall. So you don't have to.

Until there's a significant decrease in the selfishness and cowardice of the general population, or mandatory universal service at least, I'll 'worship' the class of people that do serve and stand on that wall. Knowing that a few of them are not really all that honorable or brave but are just riding it out - from my experience the vast majority are worthy of appreciation just for being there.

p.s. OKDem08, have you ever been in the military? Been in combat or a quasi-realistic training exercise? (the closest I came was barely the latter but it was enough to make me appreciate the people who actually serve under real fire.)

[awoke_in_2003]

17. bingo. nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

26. +1,000,000!! And especially among men who do not serve.

There is a certain amount of guilt, so much so, that we see how it manifests itself in many of these Republicans who didn't serve. If you compare the two parties, there are far more Democrats who have served than Republicans. And yet, somehow the Republican Party is known for its "support" for the military.

All week long the Corporate Media went after Charlie Rangel, for instance. Never once did anyone mention that he served his country despite the mistakes he has made. That never happens with Democrats who serve.

We only worship the likes of John McCain and such.

We allow Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and many other wingnuts to insult Democrats day in and day out--even those who have served with honor like Patrick Murphy or Joe Sestak. And yet, they love Bush, "five deferment" Dick Cheney, etc.

Yes, the soldier worship is deserved when appropriated in the right way.

You are a hero. My brother, father, grandfather, uncles, aunts, and cousins--all of whom have served because they had no other way out of the ghetto. They deserve the accolade.

When I was in high school, nearly all the black and Hispanic boys joined the JROTC because they knew that they wouldn't be able to afford college, unless they earned an athletic scholarship. All but 3 of them joined the military after high school. That was 1989. I wonder how many of them are around and still alive.

Two of my uncles gave their lives in Vietnam. Another uncle has devoted his life to helping Vietnam Vets deal with PSTD and other illnesses brought on by the war.

My brother was sent to Uzbekistan and Afghanistan. And two of my cousins are still in Iraq.

And those who are wealthy who don't have to serve and yet choose to, I commend them. They deserve the worship.

Thanks so much for sharing and for your service to this country.

[Arugula Latte]

42. But the reality is that U.S. soldiers RARELY actually "defend" us

WWII? Yes indeed.

Other wars/conflicts since then? Usually not so much. This is not the fault of the individual soldier. The people who send them to shoot and kill others primarily send them to further U.S. corporate interests, not because we are "threatened" here in the U.S.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

54. The politician told them they were defending us. It isn't the soldiers fault that policy makers

don't always make the right decisions about war.

[Arugula Latte]

57. Right, but the soldier worship makes it hard to point out that they're fighting for corporations

and not for people.

[inna]

9. Could not agree with you more.

Militarism, jingoism and contempt for human life (especially when compounded with racism) are THE most virulent, destructive and dangerous characteristics of the American society. "Troops are brave heroes who are fighting for our freedom" is nothing but propaganda; how the American people (on the whole) put up with some truly evil stuff done by our ruling class, in our name, is absolutely beyond me.

Have you seen this thread? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9685171
I found it disturbing as hell, not because I'm not fully aware of what's been happening in Iraq, but because that guy was given a free pass (by liberals on DU!) and absolved of all responsibility for his crimes (yes, CRIMES - it does NOT matter if he was "just following the orders"). I KNOW that he, too, is a victim of the system; but that does NOT make it right for us to be so complacent in the face of pure evil. ("Oh, about a million of dead Iraqis?... Oh well. It's too bad, but we don't like to talk about it. Who counts dead Iraqis, anyway? It's only brave American heroes whose lives count.")

The sad truth is that the ruling class has been largely successful in cultivating the type of mentality - in the society as a whole - that allows and encourages this type of behavior. (Not historically unprecedented, by far. In fact, certain analogies immediately come to mind.)

[mopinko]

10. i think it is pretty hard wired into the human animal.

hopefully we will be around long enough to evolve out of war.
i think- no war heroes, no wars.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

11. part of the 'patroit' thing

I think most countries have the same view.

[stray cat]

12. It's easy for those sitting in comfort to deny the real sacrifice of others

[rasputin1952]

13. This old vet will tell you that those who have been in the jaws of death...

are the first one's to try to prevent war.

Eisenhower, JFK, Grant were all against war when they became president...and that doesn't even get down to those who actually fight in them.

Sadly, the armed forces are necessary, and those that join know what they are doing; it's important to realize that men and women who do join, join for various reasons. Economics plays a part, but there is also a very real sense of doing one's duty for one's country and it's citizens. When one remembers that a small percentage of people actually serve, one can understand just why these people should be honored for their service. It is far too easy to just "brush them off", but these are the men and women who stand, in frigid and often remarkably hot conditions to protect this nation from potential enemies.

The fiasco on the Middle East is a travesty as far as I'm concerned and a complete waste of human life. However, these service members that are enduring this are doing what they were trained to do, they accepted a calling that only those of us who have been there understand. What I find despicable is people like bush, (AWOL), cheney, (never served), and a host of people that never served who think the military is at their personal disposal are willing to have others maim and kill, be maimed and killed, just because they can send them into harm's way. The worst people are those that do not know the heavy price the military pays so they can collect political capital.

I respect those that endure the hardships while others sit at home, comfortable, because of the sacrifice some make for us.

If you want to find the real bastards, look at those who profit immensely from war, while never having to face the threat.

[jaxx]

18. That blew right over the top of their heads, but I listened to you.

Putting down the troops is the most unreasonable thing I have seen on here, but it's done daily.

Thank you. My dad was a marine in the Pacific and we know what it means to have the country behind the troops.

[rasputin1952]

21. Your father did well...

and fortunately, he came home...elsewise, we would not have you...:hug:

[Duppers]

20. Thank you.

I concur:
"If you want to find the real bastards, look at those who profit immensely from war, while never having to face the threat."


And I'm with 'thelordofhell' below in post #19:

"God bless our troops - God damn our wars"

And I am anti-war to the max; they all originate for a flag and a lie.

[rasputin1952]

24. I am anti-war as well...

but I served my country and I know what today's service members face. Those that serve do so with honor and dignity, understanding completely the sacrifice in time, energy and comfort, we should never disparage those who serve honorably.

I wish it were in my power to bring them home, and send the people who profit from war in their stead.

:patriot:

[MH1]

25. Well said.

:applause:

[Bluerthanblue]

32. There are many great people like yourself, who have

learned through experience the true cost of war, and who don't get caught up in the romanticizing of war. My Dad was one- he served in Germany, came home physically intact, but forever changed from what I understand.

While Senator McCain served in the military and experienced some terrible things, it doesn't seem to me that he sees war as as much of a 'last-resort' as many of the Vets. I know do, and he isn't alone.

My Dad had a friend who was turned down for service in WWII, he tried to enlist before he would have been drafted but was rejected. It was something he never got over. He worked as a machinist and supported the war effort as best he could, but the stigma he felt, the sense of personal failure and of being an outsider really haunted him.

I can understand the frustration you feel about those who didn't serve, but I can't say that those who didn't were necessarily "comfortable" or that they didn't sacrifice in other ways.

I admit to being frustrated by Bush and Cheney- Bush because he basically went AWOL- yet was given an honorable discharge, and Cheney because he "had better things to do"- I'm also troubled by the way the Mr.McCain sometimes uses his history- to his advantage while trying to pretend he doesn't, and I was pissed and ashamed of those Vets wearing band-aids "swift-boaters for truth" who disparaged Sen. Kerry shamelessly.

thank you for sharing your perspective, and for what you have endured and sacrificed.

:hug:
~blu

[rasputin1952]

35. There is nothing romantic about war...

there are funny stories, things that happen that have you in stitches when you think of them...but the 23 hours a day of relative boredom and the 1 hour of incredible carnage a day are things one learns to live with.

The broken bodies and minds of those that have survived can be something that we look at and can easily say, "there is no glory in this."

Before the Civil War and photography, those not directly involved saw the war from the face on canvas, the noble warrior, clean, upon his noble steed, saber in hand, leading the infantry into battle. The reality is mud, dirt, sweat, fear, men soiling themselves, burnt flesh & hair, the acrid smell of cordite, blood and rotting corpses in the heat...all at once. The sights, smells sounds and pain are all too real. It is impossible not to be affected.

Your father had nothing to be ashamed of...war is a national effort, without him and all the others that contributed on the home front, we would never have beaten back the Italians, Nazis and Japanese. Those that kept the soldier, sailor, airman and marine supplied did just as much to attain victory as those who fought...without them, the catastrophe that is war could not have been concluded, and I shudder to think what would have happened w/o the country behind the military during WWII. The carnage would have been far greater as people were merely murdered at an ever increasing pace.

[Bluerthanblue]

36. thanks Rasputin,

my Dad did serve actually- in the Army. It was a very dear friend of his who didn't. He was an honorary "Uncle" of ours, an wonderful man, who always felt 'less than' because of his inability to serve, but as you said so well, and as my Dad tried to say to him, he did serve, in a way that carried little notice or glory.

My Dad wouldn't talk much about his time in Germany, but I'm told that he was not the same man when he returned.

I appreciate your thoughts

[rasputin1952]

37. No one comes back from war the same...

everyone I know was changed, or so I was told from WWII and Korea. I'm sure WWI was the same...and then, the public forgets about those they depended on when asked to go.

When you are in such close quarters, and lives depend on actions that have become automatic, it is difficult to adjust, to a "normal" life. My dad was one who was one that showed up in jeep at a Camp...only through others did I find out what had happened.

[AndrewP]

38. 1000% exactly

My Dad was stationed during Vietnam. Wasn't exactly "his idea" but as a 20 year old Hispanic male was one of the few avenues in that era for furthering yourself.

The enemy are those who use the military for their $$$ benefit.

[WestSeattle2]

49. Nicely said. n/t

[leftynyc]

55. Very well said

and thank you for serving. The OP is a load of crap.

[DavidDvorkin]

14. It's historically un-American

In the early days of the country, Americans were noted for their dislike of uniforms, soldiers, and standing armies. US troops coming home from the unsuccessful attempt to invade Canada in the War of 1812 were jeered by crowds of citizens.

Perhaps the change began with the Civil War. I think the reverence of all things military was deliberately encouraged by the government during the Cold War. Now it's deeply ingrained in our culture.

[niceypoo]

15. Soldier worship furthers the military industrial complex

...and mindless nationalism.

[thelordofhell]

19. God bless our troops

God damn our wars

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

22. Especially as it pertains to John Sidney McCain, III. It's simply disgusting!!!

[rasputin1952]

46. McCain is a legend in his own mind...

he did nothing that was "heroic", he got press coverage because his father and grandfather were admirals. He was a POW, as were many other individuals.

Republicans have a knack for creating "heroes"heroes that are R's, and diminishing what others have done, like Bob Kerrey, MOH recipient and Navy Seal, but he was a D, so that doesn't count. Same thing with Max Cleland, losing 3 limbs trying to save his fellow soldiers from a grenade, but just before that terrible event, he was awarded a Silver Star for saving the lives of 3 soldiers, dragging the wounded out of the line of fire and treating them. Leland was a Captain in the Signal Corps, and his just being in a firefight was amazing on it's own.

Sen Inouye(D), MOH recipient, and countless others that have served in the House and Senate that were D's, while Saxby Chambliss, (who campaigned against Cleland calling him a coward), never served. Boehner served 8 weeks in the Navy! Honorably Discharged, but that's not even enough time to complete basic training! bush went AWOL to avoid a drug test; McConnell spent a year in the Army Reserves in 1967, wonder what he did to get discharged w/o fulfilling his obligation?

Like most R's, he was/is a coward...Nixon, to his credit finished his obligation in the Navy...McCain was Medically Retired from the Navy, (good thing too, he was an "ace" losing 5 planes!).

Have there been R heroes, of course there were, but nothing in the neo-con assemblage would show that. Like most armchair generals and admirals, they huff and puff and never go into harms way...after all, it's "beneath them". They are the lowest of the low.

[Imajika]

23. So were you angry about Obama speech to the troops...

..in Afghanistan?

He most certainly glorified them as all US Presidents do.

In fact, I'd say Obama feels very comfortable with the troops and considers them hero's.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

27. Does this somehow invalidate the OP?

It does not.

[Imajika]

30. I asked a question...

It has nothing to do with invalidating the OP.

My question was whether someone who feels this a "solider worship" society would be unhappy with President Obama heaping praise on our soldiers in Afghanistan.

I wonder if that makes the OP cringe or feel uncomfortable.

[Silent3]

28. We needed to improve upon what soldiers faced coming home from Viet Nam...

...but things have swung too far in the opposite direction, where every soldier is now a supposed automatic "hero".

[Bluerthanblue]

29. I can't/won't speak to why people join the military, but I do agree

that this society romanticizes and glorifies "soldiers".

In some of the writings about the "US Dept. of Peace," there are some well spoken thoughts on this very issue.

Until we start recognizing the courage and wisdom that diplomacy requires, and championing that in our society we can't move away from where we are.

[hayu_lol]

31. Courage and Wisdom=diplomacy...

like Chamberlain's "Peace In Our Time. The most recent leaks just demonstrate conclusively that diplomacy is the useless claptrap that keeps us in wars.

State Department(diplomacy)isn't known as 'Foggy Bottom' for nothing.

Was a time when most of us served. Not so much today.

[Bluerthanblue]

33. sorry, I should have been more specific, I was thinking more about

the USIP than the State Dept, but I do think that the goal of both groups is to avoid armed conflict.
I won't judge the entire State Dept. based on wikileaks leaked cables- for good or ill.

http://www.usip.org/

[hollowdweller]

34. How Support The Troops Came About

The right and the companies used the fact that a few soldiers coming home from Vietnam got crap from protesters and then when we went to war for oil in the first Bush admin they set it up that we worshipped the troops and any criticisim of the war was a personal insult to the troops.

Now most of the troops I've actually talked to seem to be more concered with the fact that the public doesn't really know what is going on over there and could really give a shit about them. However since the majority of the public has no interest in the war the right has made it so they can slap a bumper sticker on the car and feel they are doing their part.

I personally would like to see the entire defense budget treated like Social Security. I would like to see it funded by a payroll deduction and when it runs short,like when we have war it goes up. Then the public would have some ownership of our imperialistic foreign policy and bloated military budget.

[peace13]

39. Sorry, the problem is not with the soldiers.

It is with those who determine the mission, style of training and respect for the Geneva Conventions. The enlisted people are not the problem and I respect them for the job they do!

[johnaries]

40. +1

[Xenotime]

60. Do you support...

soldiers from the US Army shooting unarmed Afghan civilians for fun? Because that's what they are doing over there.

[lynne]

41. Worship? No. Respect and Gratitude? Most certainly.

I think you will find respect and gratitude from those who have had friend or family in the military as they better understand the desire to serve the country and the sacrifice that the soldier and his/her family makes.

They certainly have my respect and gratitude.

[Arugula Latte]

43. But part of the soldier worship is that it distracts from the reality of the military's mission

Let's face it -- the military largely does not "serve" or "defend" the country. The military is largely there to further U.S. corporate interests.

Sad but true.

[bertman]

44. This vet agrees that there is too much military worship. Yes, I consider it worship

the way it is done here. It is perilously close to some other very unsavory military regimes that we all know about in the not-too-distant past.

I also agree that our members of the military deserve respect for doing something that, in theory, is for all of us. Their sacrifice is worthy of honor. Sadly, now it is for the Corporate Empire that is now known as the U.S.A. and not for the defense of liberty.

[mstinamotorcity]

45. No soldier worship,

means no wars,and No Weapon sales!!!!!!!!!!! No Military Contracts!!!!!No Profit for Warmongers!!!!

[rasputin1952]

47. The war profiteers are a pariah and shold be tossed into prison...

or better yet, sent into the areas of conflict to do the fighting.

[mstinamotorcity]

48. Its really ridiculous

I see our soldiers saving lives. Coming in when events like Hurricane Katrina or the California fires. I see some peace keeping missions and Humanitarian needs,and war if provoked. But to end up coming back home to possibly no job,home,family,without limbs,with PTSD, and very few understanding friends and no real help from the Government. Its just SAD. I admire our Soldiers because the have a loyalty that is not based on propaganda. It is something they believe in their Heart. They believe in the Freedoms of America. I just wished when they are sent to engage in Battle it really is for the Freedoms of America and not OIL and Kharzi's Poppyseed Infested Afghanistan. No disrespect to 9/11 families, but I wonder when will enough bloodshed and money will justify this war.And Osama is Where????

[rasputin1952]

50. My thinking is, why would Pakistan give bin-Laden up...

the longer he stays there, the more millions they get from the US. Another boondoggle by bush, he thought he could by off the Pakistani's, he was wrong, just like in everything else he did...:grr:

[mstinamotorcity]

53. Well anytime someone

would speak out against corruption at the levels I think this runs on, they end up in a mysterious plane crash which is the fault of instruments or pilot error or with a bullet like so many we know. And just maybe we can keep the draw down date so we can start to heal our soldiers inside and out!!!

[Zoeisright]

51. You should watch "The Americanization of Emily".

James Garner and Julie Andrews. Great film.

[rhiannon55]

52. Not since WWII have soldiers been "fighting for our freedom".

Our "freedom" has nothing to do with it, unless we're corporate execs who want the "freedom" to plunder the resources of whatever country we've invaded at the moment. They're also not fighting for the freedom of the people in that invaded country (another lie that politicians are always telling). All those people really want is to be free from invasion and occupation, and we're certainly not giving them that.

I'm not saying that the soldiers aren't brave and honorable (I'm sure that many of them are). But most of them joined because they needed a job, and they're simply being used as cannon fodder by ruthless corporations. I, too, am sick to death of soldier worship. I especially hate it when Democrats, who ought to know better, talk this way.

[GSLevel9]

56. soldiers are just a reflection of the society from whence they come. nt

[Karenina]

58. See: North Korea n/t

[Xenotime]

59. Thank you!! Sometimes you don't see what offends you till somebody points it out.