Hmmm. Some of the same people who insist that it is their right/duty to loudly criticize President

[Empowerer]

when they disagree with him - and chafe at being told that they should be keep their criticisms to themselves - are now absolutely FURIOUS that the President had the temerity to criticize THEM.

Sorry, but we can't have it both ways.

[mtnsnake]

1. !

:popcorn:

[patrice]

2. Why should anyone do anything for a "movement" that isn't there. Un-Employment

Benefit extension FAILED the last time it came up.

If it hadn't failed, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Q. Why did extension of UnEmployment Benefits fail the last time?

A. There is no Left. What calls itself the Left is just a bunch of issue groups fighting amongst themselves for that label.

[young but wise]

3. +1

[FrenchieCat]

4. Ironically, they will have it both ways.......

kind of like how the Republicans operate.

Right now at DU, the Deficit is big! The red meat word to throw out to prove your seriousness
on this is to mention China. That seems to do the trick. Of course, when trying to pass a
stimulus of some kind, the deficits don't matter.

It can make one's head spin! :crazy:

[eleny]

5. That isn't the issue..

The issue is that when he does find some fire in his belly it's to finger wag at his base.

And btw, he said he expected us to keep his feet to the fire. Looks like he didn't mean that.

Btw, I heard on Lawrence O'Donnell's program tonight that Biden got his ass handed to him when he went up to the Hill today to try and twist arms. So this goes way deeper than us ordinary Americans criticizing the deal. Sounds like a bunch of Dems in Congress are furious, too.

[Empowerer]

Urging you to keep his feet to the fire doesn't mean he's going to just sit there and not defend

himself if he disagrees with you.

[eleny]

10. Or he could have decided not to ignore his base

[patrice]

9. We still have both the House & the Senate. Why did extension of Un-Employment Benefits fail

the last time?

[eleny]

12. Maybe Obama should have finger wagged those who voted against it

It's such a great tactic.

[patrice]

13. I don't know why everyone thinks he is supposed to do everything or tell us what to do.

He NEEDS and effective foil; all he got it a bunch of people griping about him not doing it ALL.

Grassroots Democrats were afraid to stand up for something that wasn't popular with moderates and Republicans.

There is little or no initiative; everyone sitting around waiting for party "leaders" to tell them what to do.

[eleny]

15. I don't need "leaders" to tell me what to do or think for that matter

I know what I want the administration to do. I don't plan on ever refraining from telling the WH what I want.

[patrice]

18. The frakking party is at fault here too. Are you telling them too? He didn't do this all by himself.

[eleny]

19. Yes, I do. Anything else?

[Empowerer]

20. Exactly

While the left and the media smack the President around, the Dems in the House and Senate who created the environment that led to this are skating - and have the nerve to be joining in the Obama-bashing. Pretty amazing.

[patrice]

24. I'm still very angry about the vote this year. Extremely tired of passive "leadership". - and -

WHERE were all of those Democrat apparatchiks when BIG issues were up in Congress? Health Care? Extension of un-Employment Benefits???? They were HIDING; didn't want to rock anyone's boat. I swear to god, they think this party is a social club; I guess they're right.

[Empowerer]

33. The Dems cave left and right, leave the president little negotating room and then blame HIM

Landrieu is a perfect case in point - as Lawrence O'Donnell eloquently detailed tonight. She has done everything but marry the Republicans yet now, not only attacks President Obama but calls his actions "morally corrupt." Absolutely outrageous.

[patrice]

36. Failure to Extend those Un-Employment Benefits several weeks ago was UNACCEPTABLE.

THAT's what created this particular situation.

[Clio the Leo]

6. Noticed that too huh? nt

[creon]

7. cuts both ways

You have to decide - just like anyone else, including the president - whether the criticism is warranted or not.

If it is not, discount it.

If it is, take heed.

[apocalypsehow]

8. Exactly right. The attitude often taken was summed up by historian Thomas Macaulay years ago:

"I am in the right, and you are in the wrong. When you are the stronger, you ought to tolerate me, for it is your duty to tolerate truth; but when I am the stronger, I shall persecute you, for it is my duty to persecute error."

Spot-on OP; Rec. :thumbsup:

[Empowerer]

11. Wow - that's deep.

Thanks!

[provis99]

14. the President is our employee. He has no damn right to criticize us.

We have every right to criticize his job performance.

[Empowerer]

17. I see - you want the President to be a minion, not a leader.

Got it.

[patrice]

21. You honestly think everyone knows enough about the issues? Everyone is active enough?

Committed in a constructive manner, not just in election years, but as much as possible all of the time?

You really think we don't deserve some criticism for failing to put enough pressure on to have succeeded in extending Un-Employment Benefits the last time it was up for a vote? If we HAD done that, we wouldn't be in this situation now . . .

but of course, our failures are Obama's fault too. :sarcasm:

[cottonseed]

63. A Presidency is a bit different setup then say, a cashier.

[BeyondGeography]

16. Still beating that silly drum?

Make the right wing your fire hydrant every now and then, Mr. President, that's all.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Empowerer]

31. They call him PRESIDENT Obama . . .

yeah, I said it.

[ProudDad]

39. Only in public while they're crowing about their latest victory over him (n/t)

[COLGATE4]

50. Yes. In private, it's probably more like "that damned n-----r".

[Empowerer]

51. I don't think such epithets are flowing only from Republican lips . . .

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

52. No they don't. They treat him like dogshit and he takes it out on his own supporters.

[BlueStater]

32. I'll show him respect when he earns it.

And turning his back on the very people who put his sorry ass in the Oval Office in the first place is not my way to earn it.

I'll still vote for Obama if he runs against Palin because I don't even want to think about the consequences if he loses to her. But I'll have to wear a clothespin the size of my entire head to do so.

[Empowerer]

35. "when he earns it" "sorry ass" - good Lord

And you wonder why someone would criticize your attitude?

[BlueStater]

41. Because I'm not a blind follower?

Between this and him protecting Bush administration officials from legal justice, there's virtually nothing I can support him on. At this point, the only reason I would even vote for him is because the alternatives are even worse.

I don't know where you got the idea that I "wonder" why some people (whoever they are) criticize my "attitude". I didn't even give you an indication that I cared.

[patrice]

45. Who's blind here? Could it be those who demand something for nothing?

Could it be those who pretend that a WEAK frakking Democratic party bears no responsibility for our situation?

[patrice]

29. What part of "We 'Democrats' are not voting for you" do you think he does not understand?

How smart is it to demand something/anything and AT THE SAME TIME swear that you will give NOTHING FOR IT? And you wonder why you're ignored?

[jenmito]

25. K&R up to 0. n/t

[ProudDad]

26. Right...I should be happy about Obama's $1.5 million gift to Rush Limbaugh...

I get it now... :shrug:

[ProudDad]

27. self-delete - misplaced (n/t)

[ProudDad]

28. He's been pissing on our heads for 2 years, were MORE than used to it!

When are you going to stop thinking it's rain? :shrug:

[patrice]

34. Maybe when people stop demanding something for nothing. "Do this, that, and

the other thing, Mr. President, and, oh by the way, if you don't get it exactly the way each and every one of us thinks it should be, RIGHT NOW, we aren't going to vote for you."

[Empowerer]

37. and "Don't you DARE cut your eye at us!"

[patrice]

38. And everyone is pretending that Bush's Crash is ALL Fixed Now! When we've only

seen the precursory rounds of what that INTERNATIONAL EQUITY BLACK HOLE is doing to our HOLLOW banks. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/04/what-jamie-dimon-wont-tel_n_792138.html

[ProudDad]

42. He should have let the banksters go under

and used a couple of trillion to create local Credit Clearing Houses in every town and city in the country...

Bypass the useless vampire leeches that run those "banks for the rich"...

But no, he hired the same crew that created the "banking crisis" to bail them out...

Such "Change"...

[patrice]

46. In order to do such a thing, he would have had to NEGATE all Contract Law in this country, because

there would have been no way, short of actually nationalizing them, to say in effect "These PRIVATE business contracts are now null and void. And these other PRIVATE business contracts are still okay."

Trying to do something like that would have resulted in Lights-Out-Everyone-Go-Home-And-Get-Your-Gun.

[ProudDad]

61. Edumacate Yourself...

You are entirely incorrect. I'm not talking about nationalizing anything, I'm saying they could have used the money they used to bail the bankster out to set up an economic structure to BYPASS the banksters and by doing so, let them wither away and return to the sewer to which they belong...

Or, now, use the $700 billion of more wealth transfer to the very, very rich that Obama just surrendered to set up the alternate economic measures...

Fundamentals of Alternative Currencies and Value Measurement
http://beyondmoney.net/monographs/fundamentals-of-alternative-currencies-and-value-measurement/

No, Virginia, the economy will not recover.
http://beyondmoney.net/2010/09/20/no-virginia-the-economy-will-not-recover/

A Complete Web-Based Trading Platform
http://beyondmoney.net/excerpts/chapter-17-complete-web-based-trading-platform/

Steady State Economies
http://steadystate.org/

The debt money system that Obama and the rest are promoting, the one that's collapsing before our very eyes is NOT the only way to run an economy...

[patrice]

47. P.S. I WISH he could have done that.

[CakeGrrl]

43. The tone here lately is

insane.

I wouldn't want a lot of these very, very angry people around in a pressure situation. There isn't much thick skin and resiliency being demonstrated in these responses and proclamations.

And this is supposed to be the foundation of a strong, committed grassroots organization?

[ProudDad]

62. A few here could join and aid a strong, committed grassroots organization

But appeasers and incrementalists are not really useful...

They just waste the time of the committed...

Kind of like right at this moment...

And Believe me after Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Ray-gun, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II and Obama, traitors to the working classes all, we have EXTREMELY thick skins over here on the "left"...

It appears that it's Obama who has the thin skin -- can't stand people telling him the truth...

[CakeGrrl]

75. Sorry, you're totally projecting. People on this board are FREAKING OUT.

Hearing what I've heard, some people can't handle any sort of criticism. They crumble. They whine. They cry. They pout.

You're projecting all the behaviors of some DU posters on the President to make yourself feel justified in your continued disgust with him.

It's ironic that in your obvious anger you can't help but spit on the vast majority of Democrats who support this President. You ARE in the minority in your views in the real world.

I hope your influencing strategy is better than your instincts.

[ProudDad]

77. The majority of USAmericans haven't "supported" this pResident

Since '08...

Now the majority of Democrats will no longer "support" him since he's actively joined the wrong side...

And it's Obama and his allies who are spitting on the majority of Democrats, not I...

[ProudDad]

40. Something for nothing

you sound EXACTLY like my Senator...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[patrice]

44. Predicting a future that you cannot actually see, based on your OPINION about things that you know

little or nothing about then promising to withhold your vote for some total 100% complete abstraction, for which you hold one and only person -

AND NOT YOURSELF

accountable, and that's accountable all of the time, in every way, every day, ALL of which you are letting yourself off on and then demanding compliance from one person and no one else, such as Congress and an AWOL Democratic party, is absurdly, childishly, foolishly demanding something for nothing.

[ProudDad]

64. I didn't vote for Obama the Appeaser...

So I don't have anything to be blamed for...

As for "things that <I> know little or nothing about", that's an apt description for Obama's limitations...

I have a much broader and deeper knowledge of economics, issues of war and Peace and applied human psychology as well as personal experience with the dirty underbelly of the Vampire Capitalist Permanent War "Economy" than the posturing lawyers in the W.H. or the Congress can even comprehend...

I don't expect change to come from ANY of those individuals. I believe that change can come ONLY from ourselves. We don't need the Federal Government in order to change our local communities and get them ready for surviving the Long Emergency...

In fact the Federal Government is institutionally and Constitutionally incapable of changing to the extent that Mother Earth needs at this time...

[mstinamotorcity]

72. No to look in the mirror

they would not want to do that!!!! They don't want to blame any part of this mess on us!!!!It is true Dubya took us to the hole. But once we saw that this is not how we wanted Government to be, we voted. And I know Its :popcorn: time but I got plenty of butter. Those of us who know the truth about our Government and the Corporate money that has it by the balls,are not still trying to rationalize Democracy working to the benefit of all the people.If we want to get that just right legislation to the President, then we must CHANGE. If we keep doing the same things, why do we expect different results. And I mean voting with no other ACTIONS to show the seriousness of what our intentions are. And if we are still doing the same things why should Republicans or Democrats CHANGE their behavior!!!! Patrice ask them what they have done differently since they voted except complain about what little personal tidbit they did not get in legislation or don't want to wait to get. I tell you what,I'll send you this old coca-cola bottle and you rub it and POOF!! Oh heck I forgot to pour out the soda:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Miss you

[BlueStater]

48. Deleted message. N/T

[Whisp]

49. lol. but Obama does his crits with a bit of class at least.

and not foam at the mouth like some rabied crazed rodent with tourettes syndrome.

[ProudDad]

65. That's funny...

His lame excuses for surrender sounded like a rabid, crazed rodent with Tourette Syndrome to me...

[lamp_shade]

53. K&R

[DirkGently]

54. Who works for whom, here? It's not the electorate's job to please the President.

[Supersedeas]

55. based on a simple principle as compared to the President opaque hostage metaphor

Following the President's metaphor, the Republicans are holding the American people hostage for the sake tax cuts for the superwealthy.

During the hostage crisis, principaled Democrats demanded that the Republican be forced to vote on single issues of unemployment benefits prior to Christmas break, to vote on the single issue of tax breaks for the middle class prior to the Christmas break, to vote on Start prior to the break, to vote on the repeal of DADT prior to the break.

Loud narrow-minded Republican responded by THREATENING to filibuster anything and everything that did not have a super-tax cut for the superwealthy.

What should a person in charge do when faced with this hostage scenario?

On the ground, at the hostage scene, a few Republicans are threating, threatening the unemployed, the middleclass, and foreign treaties, and everything with a filibuster. On the ground, at the hostage scene, principaled Democrats radio the President about the threat---a few Republicans are wearing trench coats and threatening to shoot the hostages.

What should the person in charge order the principal soldiers to do in response to a few Republicans in trench coats...negotiate, press forward, attack, risk the lives of those held hostage? The principal soldiers on the ground demand that we press forward and make the hostage takers show us whether they are even armed--will they really shoot the unemployed before Christmas...to they even have any weapons hidden in their trench coats.

What should a person in charge do when faced with this hostage scenario when a few trench coat draped terrorist are threatening innocent people with trench coats for the benefit of the super wealth?

Well, I think we should force the small band of trench coats to at least show us that they are armed.

But instead, the President cedes to the threat of a few trench coats, capitulates to the demands of the terrorist, who may not have been armed in the first place, then...and here is the kicker...THEN

turns the guns and the propoganda against those who had the NERVE to demand that the trench coats show us their arms. Instead of confronting the trench coats, the President and his fan boys are assaulting the principaled soldiers who were there at the hostage scene staring down the small band of terrorists.

And the fragging continues in the Corp Media, from the White House podium, and right in...in DU.

So much for principal.

[Empowerer]

56. You left out a critical player here

The Congressional Dems.

You write as if the President controls the votes on the Hill. He doesn't. This sorry state of affairs has come to pass because the Congressional Dems, not the President, caved in to the filibuster threats. They refused to do what you're claiming should have been done (and are suggesting was the President's responsibility, which it wasn't) and left the President with virtually no wiggle room.

All of this screaming and yelling and attacking the President is rather bizarre, especially since most of those yelling and screaming and bitching the loudest aren't saying squat about the House and Senate Democrats who are largely responsible for getting us in this mess.

I have no problem with people criticizing the President. What I do have a problem with is people who myopically try to turn the President into the national whipping boy while giving a free pass to the politicians who helped to create this mess, left him to try to clean it up and then suddenly grew a backbone and sprouted a voice (Landrieu, really?) to attack the President with a fervor they have never once shown toward the Republicans.

[Supersedeas]

58. if the metaphor follows--then Congressional Dems with trench coats should have been exposed

Do you think that Congressional Dems would really stand in the way of a vote on unemployment benefits prior to the Christmas break...really? Is that what the President and his supporters are really relying upon to support this huge concession to Repuke obstructionists--it's all the Congressional Dems fault? Rather than make them show their trenchcoats too, concession was the single and only option for hostage negotiation....really? So, let's shoot the principaled left for being myopic.

You seem to be saying that principaled Dems needed to take up the reigns of leadership (because there was a leadership vaccuum?) and make a public commitment to take to the bully-pulpit and press these issue earlier. Because principaled Dems hesitated to demonstrate enough public commitment and leadership on these issues then, the President was forced by THEM congressional dems into a position where he had a duty to concede to hostage takers--and THIS lack of leadership by THEM justifies turning his rhetorical guns on the principaled left now? The lateness of their loudness is just play criminal--so the argument goes--so release the criminals and shoot the principal for not being loud enough...early enough.

All the screaming and yelling and attacking is directed at those on ALL sides who did not get the job done. The President has to be accountable here as well. Folks are frustrated that hostage crisis was not handled, yes. But instead of acknowledging that frustration, the President is treating this victory by hostage takers as his own victory. And the Presidents supporters are treating this as a victory. And the principaled left is being demonized because they have problems with it?

You are angry with politicians who created this mess, but at the same time you want to ABSOLVE the President of any responsibility for a lack of leadership. Apparently, the fault for the hostage crisis lies SOLELY with Congressional Dems who wanted to force an up or down vote on this issues--but where not loud enough about it--early enough--and yet the clock is still ticking and the hostages have not be released yet and there is still time to act. To force the hostage takes to show us what guns they possess and how many are pointed at the unemployed, even as late as today, is a unconsciounable offense--blame the principaled left?

Yes, we can concede that many politicians ought not get a free-ride. But where was the leadership from the Whitehouse--and how is this a VICTORY? Why should we be cheering when the tactics of hostage takers WORKED.

Lot's of yelling and screaming and attacking now, we hear...we hear it from the Whitehouse and the President's supporters--loud and clear.

Instead, the yelling and screaming and attacking from the bully-pulpit when leadership was needed then, the yelling and screaming and attacking is directed at the principaled left now. Congressional Dems should have showed more leadership, but the FACT is that they didn't have that bully-pulpit of the Whitehouse and LOOK OH LOOK how the bully-pulpit is being used NOW to whip the principal left publically.

Whipping has myopic irony, I guess. I'd be willing to bet this will not be the last time liberals are slammed by the Whitehouse in order to attract...'independents.' Whipping boy, indeed.

[Empowerer]

60. No - I'm saying that Congressional Dems have been caving in to the Republican minority for months

They could have taken all of this off of the table by holding a vote months ago, prior to the election, but they refused. They could have stood up to the handful of Republicans who have been blocking everything they claim to believe in.

But they didn't. In fact, some of them joined in with the Republicans and helped them water down and sometimes even block important legislation.

And now that it's back in the President's court and the Democrats can't deliver the votes he needs to push through what they claim to want, they are beating him up and calling him morally corrupt, etc. And many progressives are going right along without even mentioning the Democrats' role in getting us to this point.

THAT's what I'm talking about.

[Supersedeas]

67. And the election made it clear--this was the last opportunity with Democratic majorities to make a

principaled stand--to put those who have been waffling and sitting on the fence with Republican squarely before the American people. This 'lameduck session' was an opportunity to expose with surgical clarity the real substance of Congressional politicians--will they help the unemployed or not.

Instead of clarity, and while there was time for revealing it, the President joint the Republicans on the fence. When you TALK ABOUT "some of them join in with the Republicans and help htem water down...legislation, I hear you. I just don't understand why that PRINCIPAL and the frustration can not also be applied to the President now. Why it is 'myopic' to be frustrated about both--when it was okay for you to be frustrated about it earlier?

Instead of clarity, we get obtuse metaphors from the President.

Instead of principals, the Whitehouse is attacking those who demand clarity, now!

THAT'S what I'm talking about....clarity...not selective myopia.

[Empowerer]

68. I have no problem with people criticizing the President for how this has been handled

My problem is with those who: 1) behave as if everything would be just perfect if only the President did what they're demanding he do; 2) are giving the House and Senate Democrats a completely free pass when it is THEY who are largely responsible for creating this situation; and 3) are criticizing the President with a hatred, venom, condescension and vindictiveness far beyond rational.

[Supersedeas]

74. those 3 elements certainly narrow the field of criticism, but not everyone

who is responding to the President's broad criticism that you identify in your original post belong in the narrowly refined field that meets all three elements.

Maybe now you can see why many are reacting with more than surprise at the tenor of the President's presser yesterday.

[ProudDad]

66. Actually, at present

the Congressional Dems (and Bernie Sanders) are fighting back against Obama's capitulation...

So your scenario doesn't hold up...

[Empowerer]

69. They're fighting Obama - after ducking and wimpering before the Republicans for months.

How brave of them.

Instead of fighting Obama for cutting a deal that they made virtually unavoidable, why don't they expend their energy finding the votes he needs to do what they suddenly seem to think is absolutely necessary (but wasn't critical enough for them to fight for until this week).

[ProudDad]

78. They aren't "fighting Obama"

they're having a spasmodic episode of representing their constituents...

Big difference...

It's Obama who's pissing on us and expecting us to believe it's rain...

[Dawgs]

57. Obama works for us; not the other way around.

But, you're right. He can say whatever the fuck he wants.

Just as long as you, and him, are not surprised when he loses the votes of those that supported him.

[treestar]

82. And you have a President who no longer cares about what you want.

Because you've proven you cannot be satisfied no matter what he does.

And why does he need your votes, exactly? If he gets enough from others, he will win.

Why does the far left feel so entitled to obedience? Why do they call the President THEIR employee? Why isn't he our employee too? The moderates' employee?

The President is not your employee, he is that of the nation as a whole only.

[wndycty]

70. K&R

:kick:

[ProudDad]

71. Starve the Poor, Tax Breaks for the Rich

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4649040

[niceypoo]

73. I do not understand why Obama blames the left...

...every time he bends over for the right. It makes zero sense.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donco6]

79. Not at all furious about his right to criticize.

Just kicking myself for having supported him in the first place.

[Lasher]

80. False equivalency

I didn't ask him to vote for me.

[treestar]

81. Exactly. They just expected a Messiah-puppet

And everything is their line in the sand, over and over again. They should have gone off to the worker's internationalist party the first time. But no, they hang around, claiming THIS time, they've really had it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!