If Obama had stood tall, what do you think would have happened?

[Onlooker]

[FSogol]

1. Other: We all would have gotten a pony for Christmas!

:party:

[quaker bill]

2. Tax cuts would expire

and they would blame Obama and the Dems for "raising your taxes".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Isn't It Incumbent For Folks To Vote For Four To Explain How

At least I gave my rationale for my vote.

[quaker bill]

48. The realistic choice was not an option

so I provided one of my own.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Other

The Republicans would have waited to the new Congress and passed a tax cut bill without the goodies like EITC, payroll tax cuts, and UI extension. It would easily pass the new House and Senate. President Obama could veto the legislation, thus raising everybody's taxes or pass it. Without any kind of stimulus, even a flawed one, the economy will worsen, if that's imaginable. The Republicans get their beloved tax or a deteriorating economy. I think they actually prefer the latter so they can beat President Obama over the head with it, defeat him in 012 and increase their numbers in the House to near 300 and their numbers in the Senate to over 60.

[littlewolf]

8. This is what I have been saying ..... Thank you

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. The Only Thing The Repugs Want More Than Their Tax Cuts Is To Sabotage The Economy

The only thing the Republicans want more than their beloved tax cuts for their rich cronies is to sabotage the economy , blame Obama for it, and ensure he's a one term president.

We got waxed in November because the economy sucked. Why wouldn't we get waxed again in 012 if the economy still sucks?

[sabbat hunter]

12. I agree 100% n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. I Might Revise My Prediction A Tad Bit

UI might get thrown in but I wouldn't bet the lunch money that the Repugs couldn't find a handful of Democratic senators to vote on a tax cut bill which excluded unemployment insurance benefits.


You can see the stakes...

[babylonsister]

4. He did stand tall-he took a stand. He was damned either way. nt

[Bluerthanblue]

41. yup-

absolutely right imo.

[rucky]

5. That fact that he believes this is the best deal we can cut...

indicates his unwillingness to use veto as a negotiating tool when Congress turns over.

So it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy that we'll get a worse deal later if we don't take this one now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. The Repugs Would Love For President Obama To Veto A Tax Cut Next Year

It's a twofer. They get to blame him for raising taxes in a recession and then make the recession his running mate in 012 ensuring his defeat.

[eShirl]

9. Other: pigs would fly

[harun]

11. I picked opt 4 but it wouldn't have got to that. Republican's would have folded

before they actually expired.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Why?

I will write the Tan Man's statement if the tax cuts legislation was defeated and everybody's taxes went up. I am referring to the politics of the situation and not the merits because at the end of the day it is the former that matters.

"Ladies and gentlemen, today you saw the Democrat(ic) party refuse to cut your taxes ensuring taxes go up for everybody this year. It will be the first order of business for the new Congress to restore those cuts."

[harun]

30. Because once their rich backers saw what happened to their taxes,

Repuke heads would roll.

They can't claim Dem's refused to cut taxes when the House already passed tax cuts for the Middle Class and the Senate Dem's are already trying to pass that bill in the Senate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. ?

There will be a real bill at the beginning of the next session with tax cuts for everybody that will pass. The president can veto it, effectively raising everybody's taxes, threatening the fragile recovery, which is what the Repugs really want so they can clobber him over the head with it when he runs for reelection or he can sign it, Either way the Repugs get what they want. But as I said the Repugs benefit more from a crappy economy that they can blame Obama for then getting the tax cuts for their rich cronies.

They want to wreck this economy, drive it into the ground, put as many out of work as possible, and blame Obama for it.

[liberal N proud]

13. The tax cuts would expire and the GOP would forever nail the Democrats for raising taxes

Unemployment would not be extended.

Both the higher taxes and the unemployment extension are holding the holiday shopping season hostage. People who are afraid they will be paying higher taxes are not going shopping.

For those about to lose unemployment, forget about holiday shopping, it is about the basic daily living needs and they will not have it to spend.

The economy would tank just on the fear the Republicans and the M$M have built.

[Vinca]

14. Now the GOP will forever nail the Democrats for increasing the deficit.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. The Deficit Is An Abstraction To The Average American

He or she only knows if they have a job and how much money they have to spend. Your inevitable retort will be that the deficit is a looming threat. To that I say the average American does not see that far and really doesn't care to see that far...

You can never go broke by underestimating the myopia of the American people.

[JoePhilly]

20. Correct ...

The deficit only becomes an "issue" when the GOP is out of power. Then the GOP screams about it, with media assistance, to prevent the Dems from governing. As soon as the GOP is back in power, the deficit stops being an issue.

And most people don't know anything about it. As you said, my job, my families job, and our money. That's all that really matters.

Most in the middle class were not upset with Obama's deal because it protected THEIR tax cut, and that's the only one they care about. If the deal collapses, the middle class will blame Obama and the Dems.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. It's Interesting

The Tea Party is getting a lot of traction because of the deficit just as the Deform Party got a lot of traction in 92. What was the common denominator? A lousy economy. I must add this recession makes Bush 1 recession look like a walk in the park...

If we had a good economy there would be much less talk about the deficit. Also, the deficit is a symptom of a lousy economy, not the cause...

[JoePhilly]

27. True ...

I think the Tea Party got traction at first because we have a black guy in the White House. The GOP's played the Southern Strategy forever, and they know how to use race to excite the right wing base. Once that group gets energized, all you need to do is give them a few issues and they'll run from there.

So its the deficit, and taxes, two of the old standards. Then "big government". Then its Socialism. Communism. Fascism. Ignore that these words mean different things ... just so long as the member of the right wing base have something to scream. And then go after community organizing, Obama's a "thug" periodically.

Tie unemployment to "urban" people. More dog whistle code words.

If the GOP regains power, the deficit will disappear as an issue. The media will drop it in a heart beat.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Race Is Always The Elephant In The Living Room

But if the economy was great it would be of subsidiary value to his opponents. He would co opt most of his opponents, even most of the racist ones because being fed is more important, even if the reason you are being fed is because it's an African American guy...

[JoePhilly]

39. Its a good debate ...

My sense is that many in the Tea Party are not suffering (although I'm sure some are). I have a guy down the block from me in a 4000 sq foot home that he just added a new screen porch to, and he's Tea Party all the way.

He's a smart guy in many ways. Yet he thinks his taxes went up under Obama. They have not.

And then I have in-laws .... a large contingent is retired white folk who are doing just fine.

I'm a mid-40s white guy, and I could easily pass for tea party. And I will try and get my Republican friends to be honest. They think Obama is going to take THEIR MONEY, and give it to lazy minorities.

I think you are correct that if the economy was better, the GOP would be having a tougher time, but I don't know much would change.

Consider ... when we has a surplus ... GW Bush said that having a surplus was BAD, because it proved that the government was taking too much of your money. So we need tax cuts for the rich. And then now, we have to maintain tax cuts for the rich, even with a huge deficit, because the economy needs that money. So basically, tax cuts are always good, regardless.

Oh ... last thought ... I Hillary was President, their attacks would be about how a woman is "overly emotional". And that Hillary was "being a bitch" ... stuff like that.

[liberal N proud]

34. The average American couldn't even tell you what the deficit is

Or how it is figured.

You are correct, all they are worried about is having a job to pay for the things they need in their life and don't want to concern themselves with things so large they cannot fathom them.

[calimary]

44. And they'll do THAT anyway, too.

Regardless what our side might do. It's just more flogging the same molly. Talking points and propaganda over and over and over and over all over the media - which they own. They're MUCH better at perception management than our side is, dammit.

Our side has the good ideas and a crappy delivery system. Their side has crappy ideas and a brilliant delivery system.

:banghead: :puke: :mad:

It Doesn't Frickin' MATTER what our side does!!!!!!!!!!!


It Doesn't Frickin' MATTER what our side does!!!!!!!!!!!


It Doesn't Frickin' MATTER what our side does!!!!!!!!!!!


It Doesn't Frickin' MATTER what our side does!!!!!!!!!!!


It Doesn't Frickin' MATTER what our side does!!!!!!!!!!!


The bag guys are going to come at us ANYWAY. They'll call it whatever they want ANYWAY. They have the megaphones that our side never seems much interested in (except for Bernie Sanders today).

So we Might As Well Go Ahead With WHATEVER WE NEED TO DO BECAUSE WE KNOW IT'S THE CORRECT THING TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And then, of course, we have to push it out there in the media and in the public discourse with everything we've got! It would help if we had a President who used his bully pulpit more for this.

JUST DO IT. And then advertise the HELL out of it!!!! Talk it up everywhere, in every way, til you're blue in the face!!!!!

[GoCubsGo]

17. Other things being held hostage...

Job creation, bank loans to small businesses, mortgages to prospective home buyers... Also, I suspect the jobs of lots and lots of Walmart employees. Anyone care to bet that the Walton family threatened layoffs if they didn't get their estate tax cut? Why else would their good buddy, Blanche Lincoln, A LAME DUCK, see to it that this got into the measure?

Once they get their permanent tax cuts and a republican majority in the House, watch all that loosen up. And, guess who will get the credit for it. Hint: Not President Obama or anyone else in his party.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. I Diasgree

Regardless of party the president and not Congress always gets the blame or credit for the economy.

Do you really think Obama would have beat Gramps and the Kid if the unemployment rate was 4.8% and not 7.8%?

Do you think Clinton would have beat Robert Droll if the unemployment rate was 8.5% and not 5.5%?

The average American couldn't pick out the Tan Man in a lineup...

[GoCubsGo]

28. That's not what I'm hearing

I'm constantly hearing people blaming the Democrats for this economy, because they held the House, and half of the Senate since 2006. Whoever controls the media controls the message. The Democrats do not control the media. What does it tell you when, every time something happens within the Democratic Party, these clowns bring in some republican to comment about it? This morning, Matt Lauer brought in fucking Michelle Bachmann for comments. I have no idea what that clown said, because I changed channels. I doubt many others did the same. What the hell does she know about the inside workings of the other party? Yet, that's the kind of shit people are hearing. They're being buttered up to blame the Democrats, and they don't even know it.

Since you like playing these hindsight games, do you think Al Gore would have handily beaten George Bush in 2000 had the media not constantly bashed him, while covering up Dumbya's massive flaws? Ditto for John Kerry in 2004? The average American can't pick the Tan Man in a lineup, and they also can't distinguish facts from propaganda. That's the problem.

[liberal N proud]

35. Wal-Mart is not so worried about the Walton's tax cut as they are beating last years sales

That is all they worry about, year over year sales, from the store, to the region, to the company.

And sales at Wal-Mart are down this year and one of the reasons stated by a store manager, is the threat of higher taxes and the loss of unemployment benefits.

[GoCubsGo]

40. I was referring to the estate tax, not income tax.

And, if you don't think the Waltons are going to do everything they can to keep their fortune within the family, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[calimary]

43. They do that anyway.

Regardless what our guys do. Regardless. They keep pushing the talking points and buzz phrases. That's all they've got - but unfortunately in this day and age with most of the media in their back pockets, that's all they need.

[pnorman]

16. Interesting poll!

All choices except "other" are, to one degree or other, anti-Obama. Looks more like something usually found on Fox Noise.

[JoePhilly]

22. Other ...

The tax cuts expire.

The GOP blames Obama and the Dems for raising taxes on the middle class, thus breaking Obama's most important campaign promise, to not raise taxes on those making under $250,000. The media will forget about spinning the current deal in a manner aimed to make the left angry, and immediately switch to the meme that Obama raised taxes on 95% of Americans during what for many is still a deep recession. And, he let UE expire at Christmas, the bastard. This framing is already starting given the recent House "defiance".

The GOP House will then extend both the middle class tax cuts and the tax cuts for the rich at least temporarily (perhaps permanently). This will pass easily in the House. And then, a very similar bill will get enough votes in the Senate thanks to blue dogs and a few other dems who have to get those middle class tax cuts to be reelected (which is most of them). Few if any of the Dem items in the current deal will be included.

The media will call this the "GOP stimulus package". And the middle class will LOVE the GOP for having restored the tax break that Obama and the Dems wanted to take from them.

That's what happens.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. UI Might Get Thrown In Because They Need To Peal Off Some Democratic Senators But...

UI might get thrown in but I wouldn't bet the lunch money that the Repugs couldn't find a handful of Democratic senators to vote on a tax cut bill which excluded unemployment insurance benefits.

[KansasVoter]

24. Try posting this on GD and see real results

[cornermouse]

26. Tax cuts are a republican policy.

People were voting against republican policies as personified by Bush. If he had stood tall, people would have been respected him. Jobs will continue to be shipped overseas until some sort of barrier is created by the government. Obama's did nothing about that even though he had a democratic congress.

[whistler162]

29. The same people whhining the loudest would still be whining

loudly!

[namahage]

45. Except this time it would be about Obama's "broken promise" not to raise taxes

for those making under $250,000.

[ieoeja]

33. I voted for the second option pretending "chug" was replaced by "accelerate". (nt)

[niceypoo]

36. Wow, lot of supply siders here

Bush tax cuts tanking would tank the economy? Bush tax cuts CAUSED the whole mess.

[Phx_Dem]

37. He did stand tall, which is why we got so much more out of this deal than the GOP.

[CakeGrrl]

38. Choice #4 comes direct from Dreamland

As if the Republicans would EVER relent and do the right thing to help achieve a Dem goal.

Understand this: They WANT things to go to shit.

They can AFFORD to let things go to shit. The average Joes who support them now would believe it was the Dems' fault courtesy of Fox News bullshit spin. No worries about looking bad to their voters.


Of course, that also happens to be the option that allows a big chunk of posters to claim that Obama is a capitulating, gutless failure. Go figure!

Oh...and I call fail on the poll: The way the subject line is written, only posters who DON'T think he "stood tall" are being asked to respond. That doesn't include me.

[ncteechur]

47. Ding ding ding ding --we have a winner. dreamland indeed.

[TwilightGardener]

42. LOL @ people thinking Republicans would accept Dem demands.

This is fucking DreamWorld. In a few weeks, they'll have it their way. We're in no position to demand anything.

[KansasVoter]

46. LOL.....wimps not even willing to try