Looking past the obvious: Tax cuts and the Rich

[Tom Rinaldo]

Of course most people would like to have more money, even those who don't need it. But this is about something far more vast is scope than a few dollors more transfer of wealth.

The Corporate Right wants Government weakened. Tax cuts are a strategic move in that dfirection. Ever continuing tax cuts effectively drain government of it's life blood; revenue. Building the federal deficit just furthers the goals of the corporate right, because every dollor added to the deficit is an arguement in favor of cutting a dollor out of government expenses. Obama is playing right into this strategy. If arguments are already being made that we can't afford to extend unemployment benefits without offsetting cuts in spending elsewhere, and those making those arguments are not being tared and feathered but in many cases instead actually getting elected, where will we be AFTER another Trillion dollors are added to the Federal debt?

The goal of saving Americans some economic pain in January, by caving in to hostage taking and by embracing tax cuts rather than government spending as the primary means to stimulate growth, could help lock in economic pain for most Americans for a generation.

The corporate right is not patriotic. They have no more allegience to the common Americans today than did the monopolists and robber barrons of an earlier age did. In fact they have less, becaue they need American consumres less now as a middle class emerges in emerging nations. Corporations have already truncated the power of their traditional arch rivals; organized labor. A weaker government has less resourses available to play cop to these new age robbers. Less enforcement capacity, and less standing with the public as the usefullness of government shrinks along with it's resourses. That is their goal.

[ladjf]

1. Good job of pointing out the main reason that the "compromise"

is bad for America. It's the long range view vs the short range. Most people seem to miraculously overlook that all important element.

[Enrique]

2. that was the point of the Bush tax cuts in the first place

and in addition, the payroll tax specifically weakens Social Security, which everyone knows is the big prize. All that money, wasted on keeping old people out of poverty!

[ProSense]

3. "Obama is playing right into this strategy. " OK

Repeating this again:

Congress has to either negotiate a better deal now or later.

Later, means the deal will be negotiated by Republicans. They will not need a single Democratic vote in the House, and there will be five more Republicans in the Senate.

They will ensure that all the things that are currently being held hostage by them are still held hostage in the next Congress.

They will negotiate a deal that includes more tax cuts for the rich, middle class tax cuts, a lesser deal for the unemployed and none of the stimulus provisions.

The President will have to sign or veto a bill with relief for the middle class and unemployed. It's unlikely that the GOP will change their package to accommodate the President and Democrats when they are the majority in the House.

Republicans are assholes, and they are not going to act otherwise. This is not shut the government down, this is about tax cuts for the middle class and stimulus provisions. Any package that Republicans negotiate will be accepted by Americans as "the best we can do," especially when they are calling the shots in Congress.

The Democratic Congress needs to make the deal better now because it's unlikely to get better in the next Congress.

What do you envision happening if this can is kicked to the next Congress?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. What do you envision happening if this can is kicked to the next Congress?

I'd like to see that discussed, civilly...

[ProSense]

7. Are you redirecting my question back to me?

There is a detailed scenario in my comment:

"They will negotiate a deal that includes more tax cuts for the rich, middle class tax cuts, a lesser deal for the unemployed and none of the stimulus provisions.

The President will have to sign or veto a bill with relief for the middle class and unemployed. It's unlikely that the GOP will change their package to accommodate the President and Democrats when they are the majority in the House."

Additionally, before the bill gets to the President and with five more Republicans in the Senate, it will be easier for Republicans to get a majority. Senate Democrats will be set up to have to deal with more Republican opposition.

What do you envision happening?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. I Want To Hear From The Compromises Opponents

[Tom Rinaldo]

9. The Republicans will not control Congress, only the Hoouse

The Senate should back a tax approach that makes the tax cut on the first $250,000 permanent, and no tax cout for amounts beyond that. They should also be FAR less charitable to Republicans regarding the estate tax. The House will of course vote for something far worse than this compromise. At that point Democrats should repeatedly point out that, when they held majorities, they passed legislation in both houses to give all Americans a permanent tax cut on their first $250,000 of income, for 98% of Americans that means the cut would cover their entire income. The Republicans blocked it.

Democrats and Obama should then repeatedly hammer on the need to not increase the deficit by a dollor more than is absolutely necessary. They should point to the bi-partisan budget commission already called for tax increases and massive cuts in services even WITHOUT adding another Trillion to the deficit. Who is going to pay the interest on the loans we will need to take from China so that Millionairs and Billionaires can get tax cuts greater than the entire income of most Americans. Our children will have to pay.

The Right has spent a year stoking up public fear of deficits and EVERY Ameriucan knows from personal experience that staying out of debt means not only reducing spending, but also maintaining if not increasing income. When income drops, debt increases. It's common sense and people get it. But that is exactly what the Republicans are proposing with their insistance on a giveaway to the rich, cutting the governments income while it is already deep in debt

Steal the tea party thunder by pointing out the Republican hypocracy in wanting to massively grow the deficit so that the top 2% can have more money to play with. That's like having two wars that get put on the national credit card without asking anyone to share the pain. God forbid rich people should make a sacrifice, better to put the debt on all of our children. Make the Republicans specify what cuts in spending they propose to pay for extending the Bush tax cuts for the rich. There are no free lunches and anyone with an ounce of sense knows it. Either our kids will pay for those tax cuts WITH interest, or something has to get cut. What do they propose?

Eventually there will be a compromise, maybe the first $350,000 ir $500,000 in income will remain eligible for the tax cut, then make it permanent now. Afterall the business community hates uncertainty, right? Why prolong the uncertainty for another two years? The public will demand a compromise, but one that looks closer to the Democratic version, because the Democrats will be the ones protecting our children from having to pay back loans used to operate the Government after the moneyu that was needed for that was given to the rich instead.

It will be messy but we have the moral high ground AND the political high ground. If Republicans keep bloxking tax cuts for the middle class because they insist on giving millionairs money they don't need that will massively increases the national debt, their political stock will plummet and that is the pain that will motivate them to become reasonable, not the pain of the American people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. What If Nothing Gets Done This Congress

What if nothing gets done this Congress and everybody's taxes go up and the 26ers (26 weeks to find a job in this crap economy) lose their UI benefits. Real people will be hurt. To them the deficit is an abstraction. To me the deficit is a symptom of a sick economy, not the cause.

Truth be told i believe the Repubs wouldn't care if the compromise fails and the economy falters. The worse it is for America the better it is for them because Americans will blame Obama and they will reap the benefits. If he can't turn this economy around he will indeed be Carter 2.0 as his enemies on the right gleefully deride him as...

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. When one side goes for broke the stakes are always high

That's the Republicans in this case. They are the "if you turn the page I'll shoot this puppy" crowd. They are hostage takers and they are functioning as economic terrorists willing to blow up the plane if their demands are not met.

The solution is never to meet their demands, because their will be always be more showdowns and they will increasingly play the intimidation card without hesitation.

If the economic safety net that Democrats spent 80 tears weaving for Americans starts getting slashed because "government needs to learn how to live within its means" and "we can't saddle future generations with this debt", then millions of real people will be hurt, badly.

Public opinion is already against extending the tax cuts for the top 2% of Americans. If Democrats keep forcing Republicans to block an immediate middle class tax cut that leaves our the rich, then they will bear the blame. They can not defend their position rationally to the public. They can not defend keeping 98% of us from getting a tax cut because they are worried about the top 2% being left out. The public will want them to take what they can get now and keep fighting for their position in future elections if it is that important to them.

Meanwhile we will sharpen the issues about where each party stands, and who we each are fighting for. The alternative is to give in to the hostage takers sending the message that they are strong and we are weak. And it will seriously cut government income. Look around the world. Governments everywhere are talking about austerity measures, about budget cuts to control expanding deficits. We will only be handing Republicans a knife to use in slashing government if we cave in and reduce the fiscal obligations of the super wealthy toward our society.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. The Repubs Will Just Pass Tax Cuts For Everybody In The Next Congress

They have the votes... And we don't get the other aforementioned goodies...If Obama vetoes it he's reneging on his pledge not to raise taxes for the middle class.

And the Dems are in the position to block tax cuts for everyone just to prevent tax cuts for the rich...

[Tom Rinaldo]

18. I will not give credibility to Republican spin

We are never blocking tax cuts for the middle class if we consistently vote to give tax cuts to the middle class. The Republicans are (virtually) the only ones to literally vote against giving tax cuts to the middle class. It is on the record, and they did that because they insisted on giving tax cuts to the rich, which public opinion does not support.

They have the votes in the next Congress if the still Democratic Senate caves, although obviously they do not have a veto proof majority. If the Senate holds firm they no more have the votes for their position than Democrats have for our position. We will not be able to win a bill with no tax cuts for those above $250,000, but we could compromise that number up to $500,000 and insist on a higher Capital Gains Tax rate. If Republicans refuse they would again be blocking tax cuts for the middle class just to help the rich.

[slipslidingaway]

5. knr -Senate to Consider Tax-Cut Bill That Would Add $857 Billion to U.S. Debt

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-10/senate-tax-cut-extension-plan-would-add-857-billion-to-debt.html

[golfguru]

6. The real reason for this taxcut extension bill is the latest news on

unemployment rate moving up to 9.8%. Panic has set in.
If it moves up to double digits, anything can and will happen.
Get ready.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Sorry Tom, but I disagree with you and your vision/theory of how things "would " go.....

But since I've already got a whole thread on this,
I'll just link it. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=555833&mesg_id=555833


You see, if Republicans can keep anything from happening (and they can),
and then scream loudly (and they have the media microphones
so that will be easy) about how Obama is who raised 100% of American's
taxes and broke his "read my lips" promise, and middle class folks are paying 50% more
in taxes as a result.......
then in 2012, it will be a wipe out, from Obama on down.....
giving the majority of all branches of government to the Republicans.

We already know the Republican goal, so there is nothing new about this now....
it's always been part of their plan.

PS: To ever rely on a scenario where the media isn't part of the equation
is not smart political analysis, and you did just that.

[BeyondGeography]

13. The Party, starting with the President on down, was in total disarray on this issue

And it's amazing how foolish we look, in addition to having advanced the wrong outcome.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. We Are Where We Are

It wasn't President Obama who delayed the vote until the last possible moment.

[BeyondGeography]

16. Are you impressed with the state of our party?

and b) Who is the leader?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. It's A Circular Firing Squad.

The Democrats should take the deal , declare victory, and go home.