If The Compromise Dies

[DemocratSinceBirth]

If the compromise dies nobody will get a tax cut, the 26ers in the worst economy in nearly one hundred years will lose their benefits, and President Obama will look like a feckless clown. The Republicans will come back in the next Congress and pass a tax cut bill without the goodies like the unemployment extension, the payroll tax cut, and the Earned Income Tax Credit.

Can someone please tell me why that's preferable.

[valerief]

1. It isn't preferable. A fair bill is preferable. Of course, the new Congress can always

hack away at that, too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. A Bill That Is Fair To You Or Me Is Not Achievable In This Congress And Certainly Not The Next

That's the whole point of the compromise.

[GOTV]

55. I'll believe that when a decent attempt is made and fails. No decent attampt has been nade yet.

[dionysus]

68. they voted on just the tax cuts twice last weekend and got fillibustered.

the hell else you want?

[martymar64]

80. Then the tax cuts expire and the unemployed that get cut off will blame the Rethugs

People in the real world know that it is the Republicans that are holding the UI benefits hostage.
If the deal fails, the benefits will expire and there will be anger, but once the Republicans feel the heat in their respective districts, they will vote to pass an extension of UI benefits. The Republicans will eventually cave on this due to constituent pressure. They have before and they will again.

Passing a shitty deal just to say you got it through is no excuse for voting on a shitty deal.


You ConservaDems need to put on your Man Pants and fight for a change. Pissing your pants in fear of the Republicans is not a winning strategy.

[Life Long Dem]

71. They just had a bill fail.

Then Obama came back with this bill. :eyes:

[valerief]

69. That's it. Give up. nt

[eleny]

2. You presume that their bills will be taken up by the Senate

I think that nobody knows that for sure unless our Dem leadership is a pack of feckless clowns.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. There Aren't Sixty Votes To Prevent A Republican Bill From Being Debated

Math is math...

[eleny]

9. That's some crystal ball you've got there

Got any good lotto numbers for me?

[FrenchieCat]

18. The bills were already voted down......so NO Crystal ball is required......

cause this just happened in the last few weeks! Where you been? :shrug:

Do you know how many votes the last UI extension passed by?
Do you know how Republicans voted on it?
Do you know which of those Republicans are still in office?
Do you know who won on November 2nd?

If you can answer those questions, a crystal ball isn't essential.

[eleny]

26. The Senate Majority Leader decides if something is brought to the floor for a vote

So in the new Congress, Reid still decides. The Republicans didn't win a majority in the Senate. That's what we're discussing. So the new House can pass a bill but then it goes to the Senate and can die or be amended.

[FrenchieCat]

38. You are wrong on that.....but hey, Reid has been deciding a whole lot to bring to the floor

all along,
and Repukes still voted it down....

with even fewer Democrats come January,
and understanding the fact that UI passed with only 2 PUKE votes
BEFORE the election last time, you actually want us to now believe that
the Pukes can be shamed into doing what is right?

If so, than the view that Pres. Obama had that Pukes will do what's right eventually,
is one you share, and yet one that you have criticized negatively all along.

In otherwords, there's a disconnect with those who on the one hand believe
that negotiating with Repukes is NEVER a good thing, at the same time want me
to now believe that Repukes WILL do what is right.....only they won't do it till
January.

really? You'll take that chance? :wow:

[eleny]

40. Yes

[FrenchieCat]

47. How principled of you......!

too bad your good intentions in playing Russian Roulette with those who most say
don't give a shit about people might mean that millions will have less money to spend.....
and Democrats will go down in certain defeat at next election....cause pockebook issues,
and how much is taken away from it, is truly the only thing voters care about, at the end
of the day (notwistanding what it would do the the economy)!

Giving the GOP the ability to run in 2012 on promising a new round of tax cuts for
those who watched them disappear in 2011, and the GOP also running on the fact
that Democrats are the one that allowed gigantic tax increases on the middleclass
is an excellent political strategy....for our opponents!

[eleny]

49. I still have faith in Americans

[FrenchieCat]

52. hahaha!

So you think they will want to vote for Democrats who have just allowed an increase on
taxes for the lowest brackets by 50%...?

Why would they?
Voters vote their pocketbooks, and those would be smaller
based on your political advice!

[martymar64]

83. Obama campaigned on ending the tax cuts

The time is now.
Sure it'll hurt, but going further into debt to CHINA to pay for this giveaway to the Daddy Buxleys of this country would be more painful in the long run.

If he won't fight now, he certainly won't fight in 2 years, during his election year.

With Democrats like Obama, who needs Republicans?

[ncteechur]

92. He also campaigned on lowering taxes for folks under $250K. If they expire he will be

painted as breaking that promise. WE did the same thing to George HW bush in 1992. He had to raise taxes, he had said "read my lips..." and we beat him senseless with it.

[martymar64]

82. If you don't have an income, tax cuts are meaningless

In the real world I have not heard one single person expressing dismay about losing a paltry tax cut. What I'm hearing out there is that people are scared shitless about losing their jobs or their homes.
They know who is responsible for cutting off their UI, and it ain't us. They know the Rethugs are responsible for this.

They want Obama to STOP CAVING TO THE REPUBLICANS!!!

This deal is so wrong on so many levels yet Obama is utterly in denial to it.

It's clear he is not up to the job of being President.

[former9thward]

41. No that is not the rule in the Senate.

In the House the Speaker pretty much has full authority to a bring a bill to the floor. The only exception is a discharge petition which is rarely used. In the Senate either the Majority Leader or a majority of Senators can bring a bill to the floor.

[eleny]

45. And one Senator can hold it up as we've seen happen over and over in this Congress

[FrenchieCat]

48. And then what, exactly happens?

Go on with the scenario you are dreaming up.
I want to hear this!

[eleny]

51. It's working for the Republicans right now

Go do your homework.

Meantime, I'm going to go watch Bernie Sanders some more on C-span2. :hi:

[FrenchieCat]

54. You didn't respond.....to my asking for more of your make believe scenario

as to why Democrats should allow 100% of all American's taxes to go up,
with the lower brackets getting hit the hardest.

But see ya....

(when the debate gets tough,
some folks just quit)

[eleny]

57. I don't live to respond to your demands and I do have a life, FC

But I will say that holding ones ground in Congress is something our Dems can do. I believe they can and will if we demand it of them.

Take care.

[FrenchieCat]

61. Good intentions resulting in bad consequences is not helpful

to those who need help the most.

[martymar64]

84. That door swings both ways

Obama's good intentions are going to result in horrendous consequences for the country.

See how easy that is?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Please Name The Eight Republican Senators

Please name the eight Republican senators who will vote to filibuster a tax cut bill sent to them by the Republican House.

You need more than that because there are Dems like Lieberman and Ben Nelson who will vote with the Repugs.

[eleny]

27. See my Reply # 26 above

[stopbush]

36. You've got the filibuster process backwards.

[martymar64]

85. Man, you are such a coward.

You are so afraid of the Republicans that they have you pissing your pants in fear.

Not an attractive quality.

[martymar64]

81. In the next Congress, the Rethugs won't have 60 votes either.

Anything they put forwards, the Dems in the Senate can block and Obama has the thing called a Veto Pen. You might have heard of it.

The only way Rethug Bills will become law in the next Congress is if the Great Capitulator agrees to them.

[bushisanidiot]

5. YEP. they will be sending bullsh*t bills to the senate where they will

either die or get vetoed by the president.

and the bonus for repukes and the tea baggers? they get to argue that the "evil" dems raised their taxes in a recession.

we must not allow king solomon to cut the baby in half. someone needs to stand up for the middle and lower classes.. NOW!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. If President Obama Gets Rolled By His Own Party On An Issue Like This He's Finished

He might as well give the keys to the White House to Mitt Romney. I won't even bring up the left's favorite boogy(wo)man.

[martymar64]

86. You'd rather he get rolled by the opposition?

Maybe if he listened to what his party was saying instead of sucking Republican dick, we would get behind him.

Are you sure you're a Democrat?

[eleny]

33. The sad thing about this thread is that it presumes that every House bill will be voted on by Senate

And voted on without being amended.

The OP skipped right over the head of the Dem Senate Majority, the powers of that majority with committee chairs in Dem hands and its leader's authority.

[niceypoo]

6. Bullshit

Let it die and go home. When the next congress comes up let the GOP own both the Bush tax cuts AND killing unemployment benefits. Republicans would vote in the unemployment extension after a couple of days of enduring massive public outrage and backlash, as happened when Newt shut down the government.

Make them bring up a new Bush Tax cut bill, then filibuster/veto/etc it to death.

All it takes is a little spine

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. I Guess Math Isn't Your Forte

How is the Senate going to filibuster a bill when there are only 52 Democrats.

[niceypoo]

25. How did the republicans do it with 40?

??

Do that math!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. The Democrats Have Lost Their Ability To Advance Legislation. They Can Only Stop Legislation.

So, in your scenario, everybody loses their tax cuts and the unemployed lose their benefits.

[niceypoo]

70. The tax cuts have destroyed the economy - ditch the GOP economic policies

Come January, the GOP would extend the tax cuts after being assholes for a couple days. They would piss off 90% of the country in the process and would take all the blame.

All it takes is a spine

[stopbush]

30. Er, the Rs have no problem filibustering right now with only 40 of them.

52 Ds is more than enough to filibuster the Senate. The Rs will still need to get 12 Senate Ds to vote with them to invoke cloture to be able to avoid a filibuster and to vote on any legislation that originates in the R-held House.

We are looking at two years of absolute gridlock. Even if the Rs want to do something good - which they don't - the math says gridlock, not passage.

Besides, Reid still controls the Senate schedule and - just like for the past 2 years - most bills originating in the House will never get a vote in the Senate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. I Do Not See A Scenario Where The New Congress Lets Everybody's Taxes Go Up

Unless the Repugs make the bill so onerous the Dems have to stop it. That will certainly be the final nail in this coffin of a recovery and ensure Obamas's defeat because without any kind of juice this economy will never recover and he will be blamed for it.

[stopbush]

56. You can give everybody a tax break and still not extend unemployment benefits

or the Earned Income Tax Credit etc, ie: the progressive items Obama got in the compromise bill.

The Rs see all of that as a hand-out, while they see anything labeled "tax cuts" as a hand up. They can exclude those progressive things. Then what are Ds going to do? Say they won't vote for tax cuts because of things that were excluded? The rs will simply say "put it in a separate bill," and that bill will never be brought up for a vote.

The Rs didn't even allow Ds to offer amendments when they last controlled Congress. Why would they act any differently in the House this time around?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. They Still Need Fifty. There Still Is Reconciliation. I Wouldn't Want To Bet The House On It Though

The only Dem I can see who would sell out the poor and unemployed is Ben Nelson.

[martymar64]

89. Obama could veto it. He has that power.

If he doesn't use it then he really is the Great Capitulator.

[martymar64]

87. Tax cuts do not stimulate the economy, where have you been for the past 30 years?

Gridlock will rule for the next 2 years.

[eleny]

39. The Senate leader can refuse to bring it up for a vote

That's if the committees fail to amend the bills to make them more palatable to the Dem majorities in the committees.

You skipped right over the head of important steps in a bill becoming a law.

Refresher--> http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_law.html

[stopbush]

21. Except that the Gingrich House looks positively centrist

compared to the rabid tea-bagger-inspired Rs in the House today.

[FrenchieCat]

7. Because it would mean that we stood by our good intentions

and believed that 2% of the population didn't need what they have been getting,
and that due to our ideological principles on taxes,
and our new found concern for the deficit,
plus our fact-free scary theory on how this "might" hurt SS,
we were willing to determine that austerity and sacrifice for the 98%
who would be the ones to find it the hardest to swallow the bitter pill that Bush cooked up
long ago, would, if nothing else, show the 2% that they are getting a tax break that they didn't and don't deserve?

[leveymg]

10. Let the GOOPers vote against an extension of UI as a separate Bill. Let them take the heat, for a

change.

The Dems should not be setting up other Dems to make compromises that make them the bad guy, regardless of how they vote. It's the politics of self-destruction, and it has to stop.

[FrenchieCat]

11. There is no heat that they will take; the media will make sure of that.

[leveymg]

16. There will be heat from constituents, if not from Right-wing media.

[FrenchieCat]

23. Sure....

When folks figure out how much their taxes are going up,
I doubt any of them will be willing to generate heat
in the place where you direct them.

Don't forget that some on the Left will continue to be unhappy with
Obama's every move....so it ain't like they would actually constructively
come to his defense on any issue....

so yes, there will be heat, and it is Democrats that will get burned at the stake....
Not Republicans.

[leveymg]

32. If everyone believed that, we would all just give it up and watch American Idol.

But, that's not gonna happen . . .

[Bluerthanblue]

17. you said it.

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Last Time There Was An Unemployment Extension It Passed With Two Republican Votes

I'll get the link if you want.

[leveymg]

19. If all the Dems vote in favor, 2 more will do it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. That Bill Will Never Get Out Of The Republican House

I will allow that's it possible a Republican tax cut for everybody bill will include UI benefits because that might be the cost to get the four Democratic senators they need but they will never give up their tax cuts.

And it's risky to pit the fate of the unemployed in tne hands of Dems like Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson.

[leveymg]

37. Let them play defensive offense and craft their Bills to suit us.

But, we don't all play hardball on our team.

[CakeGrrl]

22. They already did that last month. It failed.

That is why the President put it back on the table in the tax cut deal. Extensions were totally DOA if he hadn't done that.


http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/11/18/5491040-the-unemployment-benefits-vote

[leveymg]

42. The Deal is dead. That changes the game. The Repugs can take the heat.

It was a political error for Obama to put together this kind of package that is unacceptable to the Democratic rank-and-file and a betrayal of basic Democratic principles.

[CakeGrrl]

59. When will they take the heat? When the MSM blasts the failure over the airwaves?

In the meantime, apparently you can wait for people to "get it" and get angry, but I'll bet people whose food and rent is hinging on that benefits check don't have that luxury.

[leveymg]

63. Obama made a deal that made Democrats the bad guy, regardless of how they vote. That's a Bad Deal

[CakeGrrl]

72. And what deal would keep Dems from looking bad AND make it through Congress AND

preserve UI benefits?

[Life Long Dem]

73. What heat?

Are they taking the rap for not passing the S.S COLA bill the other day? Are they taking the heat about the firefighters fund that wasn't passed? Where's this heat you talk about?

[martymar64]

90. That's loser talk coming from you.

We tried once and we failed so let's just surrender.

I'd hate to have you in a foxhole , we'd all be dead.

[Orangepeel]

53. They already did, last week.

nobody seems to care.

[mcar]

58. They already did, just last week

Where have you been? We've already been through this. Have you heard about them getting grief from their constituents? Me neither.

If this fails and the tax cuts expire and the UI extension fails, Obama and only Obama will take the fall. Not the Repubs. The media and the repubs will spend the next two years screaming about how Obama raised our taxes and destroyed our economy. The Dems will be too busy in our circular firing squad or hiding in the corner in a fetal position to back our president up.

Here's an example: how many times have you heard repubs on TV saying that the Obama stimulus didn't create one job, not one? How many times did you hear the reporter/interviewer correct the lie? How many times did you hear a democrat go on TV to defend the stimulus and talk about how many jobs were saved/created?

Why would you think it'll be any different this time?

[leveymg]

65. Obama set the Dems up to fail on this one, regardless of how they vote.

People know what's going on, or are beginning to catch on. He couldn't be more effective at destroying us if he were one of them.

[martymar64]

91. More loser talk.

Man you guys seem really really invested in getting the rest of the Democrats to cave just like Obama.

Obama is the one bucking the principles of the what the Democratic Party is all about. He should just declare that he is now a Republican and be done with it.

[Name removed]

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[CakeGrrl]

15. It isn't preferable at all.

Apparently the attitude is that Obama should have had a "spine" and let the tax cuts expire, thus forcing the Republicans to come to the table and work out a reasonable deal.

Right.

They want the economy to FAIL. They can weather it.

And their non-rich supporters will just be bilked into believing that the Democrats let it happen and they have Fox News to help spread that word.

[Jakes Progress]

24. You were supposed to get a steak.

But the dim-witted waiter brought you a candy bar from the pocket of your own overcoat and a big bowl of rancid grease. When you complain, he points out how big the spoon is that he gave you.

Then he demands a big tip.

[truthspeak]

28. Obama might not suffer from this tho...

I don't know if the rest of america connected with him on his position (i'm inclined to think most did), but he's on record for stating his case and now its up to congress (both sides) to get the deal done. So this might boost his ratings personally if it fails, especially if he comes out and blast both sides.

[golfguru]

31. You are making a logical argument

which means it could be shot down here.

[county worker]

35. When the deficit goes up it will be entitlements and social programs that will be

cut.

If the tax cuts expire there will be less pressure to cut programs needed by most of us. So in the short run the plan is good, in the long run it isn't.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. The Deficit Is A Symptom Of A Sick Economy , Not The Cause

.

[county worker]

78. The deficit is paying out more than you take in and making up the difference by borrowing.

If the borrowing gets high enough then spending on interest chokes out spending on things that help the economy like infrastructure.

[Hello_Kitty]

44. Because apparently the GOP won all three branches of the government in November

It's not like there's a Senate with a Democratic majority that could vote whatever plan the House came up with or a Democratic President who could veto it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. So Taxes For Everybody Will Go Up

Who is going to get blamed for that when the Repugs send a bill doing just that to the House and the Democrats kill it.

Do you really think your average American is going to care that a fat cat got a tax break as long as long as he got his.

Truth be told I think the Repubs want the compromise to fail and nothing gets done. I think the resulting chaos and despair will guarantee unemployment goes back over ten percent; at which point the shit really hits the fan...

[JoePhilly]

60. So play that out ...

The House passes a bill to give tax cuts to the middle class, and to the rich. The Senate, with Blue Dogs helping the GOP does as well.

Obama vetoes it.

Obama promised to not raise taxes on those making $250,000 or less. Now he vetoes a bill which would keep that promise.

The media spends the next 2 years pointing out how Obama F**Ked the middle class.

Count on it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. I'm Surprised The Repugs Want This Compromise

They are better off if nothing gets done this year, next year, and 2012. Then they can say the Senate and White House needs to be changed.

[JoePhilly]

66. They want the tax cut for the rich too much.

We've already agreed that they don't care about the unemployed. And they don't mind raising the debt.

I think their tactic is to pass this, let the super rich enjoy the money, and then return to screaming about the Deficit. Which they will blame Obama for, with media help.

They only want to lock in contributions from the super rich so they can run ads to get the right wing vote for them again. The facts will not matter to them anyway. And if you spend enough, you get to decide what the facts are.

[Phx_Dem]

67. It isn't, and hatred for Republicans and rich people is not a good reason. n/t

[NorthCarolina]

74. The GOP would LOVE to pass the payroll tax cut. It's a poison pill for SS. nt

[Pistarkle]

75. Don’t Cry For Me Argentina!

I hate the thought of having to compromise on the tax cuts just as much as you do, but no compromise is only in your corner when YOU have the upper hand. Right now the Republicans HAVE the upper hand – more than enough “no” votes in the Senate to keep tax cuts for the wealthy in ANY compromise. If Democratic candidates campaigned on tax cuts for the wealthy during the 2010 Campaign as the President suggested, perhaps 90% rather than 40% of eligible voters would have voted in the midterms and the Democrats would have the upper hand regarding the tax cut controversy, but that’s past history.

Because of the midterm results, Republicans will be in charge of the House and the 60 vote filibuster-proof Senate on the side of Democrats will be out the door come January 1st. At least now a compromise will benefit the middle class, the poor, and the unemployed and small businesses with the extension of unemployment benefits, tax cuts for the middle class, payroll tax cuts, and incentives for small businesses to create jobs. It’s not the best of both worlds, but it’s better than nothing at all. After January 1st when the Republicans are in charge of the House, you can be guaranteed that those benefits will be ‘gone with the wind’.

WE criticized the President and Democrats when we didn’t get the public option but WE didn’t fight for it. We let the Tea Party and health insurance industry do ALL of the squawking and we didn’t start raising Cain until after the fact. WE must deliver the upper hand. WE must speak out in ONE voice. WE must shame the Republicans into ending those tax cuts THROUGHOUT the next two years. WE must hold local rallies. WE must fight for our rights in local AND national newspapers, internet, radio and media outlets. WE must email, fax and call Republican Congressional offices EVERY DAY. We must let Tea Party-backed Republicans know that if they continue to fight for the wealthy and ignore the middle class, the poor and the unemployed, WE WILL vote them out in 2012 and WE must mean it!

[Name removed]

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[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. Respectfully That Doesn't Make Sense

Why should the "26ers" get preferential treatment?

They aren't getting special treatment. They are getting the extra 73 weeks the 99ers got and used. I favor another tier for the 99ers but that doesn't seem likely. It would be like having a dialysis list for kidney patients and giving some folks twenty six weeks of dialysis while they wait for a kidney and giving some folks ninety nine weeks . Where's the equity in that?

"And I remember the deficit". The deficit is a symptom of a sick economy and not the cause. The recession has cost two trillion dollars worth of aggregate demand. What would the tax receipts be on two trillion dollars?

[harun]

77. Not trying to insult you but if you really believe that you know very little about

what motivates our Congress to action.

Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do and have done. You will see who their boss is, and who they only pay lip service to. It isn't a good answer once you have it.

[jtuck004]

88. Sure

4) The well-off, rich, and ultra wealthy won't keep 114 Billion they should be paying as their fair share of taxes.

3) The single people who make <$20K a year and married people who make <$40K a year won't pay more in taxes. Here...

2) We can have a fair up or down vote on issues such as the extra weeks of unemployment for new claims (which, btw,
I have heard no-one address - why do we just keep paying that instead of creating a jobs program? Unemployment
over 7-8% is likely to be the norm for AT LEAST the next 20 years at our current employment rates).

And finally -

1) The cowardly senators who put off the vote until after the elections, so it wouldn't be so difficult to keep their
$170,000/year salaries and STILL cave in to vote for a huge tax break for the rich won't have that excuse any longer.

If it ain't fair, it ain't worth doin'. Period.

[Hello_Kitty]

93. If it dies we might not get a UI extension for a while, which is not good.

But the tax cuts will be extended whatever happens. I also think the SS payroll tax holiday will happen (the GOP likes that), along with child tax credits extension (possibly minus expansions from the stimulus), and the accelerated depreciation. A weakened EITC will pass too, since the GOP doesn't dislike it as much as they pretend they do.

On balance, the Obama compromise is better (barf) and it doesn't look like we're going to do any better (barring some unpredicted development) so pass that. But make some tweaks to it, like addressing the unfair and regressive increase on the lowest wage earners resulting from trading the Making Work Pay credit for the SS payroll tax cut.