The mistake we made was believing Obama could fulfill his promises (even if he wanted to)

[DaveofCali]

We should've known better, that the radical change that Obama as a candidate and the Democrats wanted to do was simply not possible with the way that Congress is structured. While the House of Representatives is structured to reflect public opinion, the Senate by design is supposed to circumvent popular rule, and especially with the filibuster put in, is I believe supposed to have a moderating effect, so that it is much harder to pass dramatic legislation through without making concessions, and make it very hard to pass radical legislation, thus in reality favoring a conservative worldview of change happening slowly rather than abruptly, and thus probably the greatest barrier against a progressive agenda from happening in Congress.

The mistake that we made is in believing that Obama could really get all the stuff that he promised through the congress, because Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats in the House of Representatives got Obama's agenda through, the whole problem has been in the Senate, and the Senate is by design supposed to be a barrier against popular rule. Remember, the Senate was itself a compromise during the writing of the Constitution (The Senate is supposed to represent the states, in recognition of their sovereignty, not the american people in general) and is also supposed to be a check against the House of Representatives.



I guess its not our fault though for not knowing that the modern filibuster is not a real filibuster and that one only has to say that they are filibustering to filibuster and require cloture to break the filibuster. When the hell did they change that rule in the Senate, someone has to find out....

[craigmatic]

1. Obama over promised, it's that simple. bush got alot done because he didn't solely

rely on legislation. Plus the secret of the repubs' success lately is that they only have 3 big ideas they want to accomplish when they get in office. Bush had 3- tax cuts, education (No Child), and the Social security privatization scheme. He did 2 out of 3. Obama had at least 5 big things he wanted to do- Guantanimo, HCR, ending Iraq, ending Afganistan, ending DADT, and financial regulation.

[laconicsax]

2. FWIW: Obama ran on escalating the war in Afghanistan.

Anyone who says otherwise wasn't paying attention.

[Exilednight]

23. But he also ran as the nominee who would end the war in Iraq, and anyone who

believes he did is not paying attention to what is actually happening. He replaced 70,000 soldiers with 50,000 mercenaries, errr, I mean private contractors.

Replacing our real Army with a private army is not change we can believe in.

[laconicsax]

24. But it is change we can be duped by. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Hey, but he is managing to

extend the Bush tax cuts, enhance the Bush education plan, AND start the privitzation of SS by defunding it with his 'payroll tax holiday' - so he can't be all THAT bad.

[boppers]

3. What do you mean "we"? And....

"When the hell did they change that rule in the Senate"

March 8, 1917.

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Cloture_Rule.htm

[DaveofCali]

5. I'm talking about Senators not having to do a real filibuster

Which is standing up and speaking continuously

[boppers]

10. Cloture became a proxy.

It was ignored as a tactic when there wasn't a large majority on the part of either party, but it remains a tactic for when, oh, cloture hasn't been reached, and one guy really, really, wants to spend days giving speeches.

[Life Long Dem]

4. All Obama could do is promise something and try to deliver on this promise.

You can't ask anymore from the man.

[gateley]

7. I think most Presidents get in there and get a cold dose of reality, Bush/Cheney

being the exception. Nothing seemed to stop them from achieving their despicable goals.

[Cherchez la Femme]

19. All Obama could do

1) is promise something, and

2) try to deliver


It's the complete and total lack of #2 that's the majority of the problem

[Hello_Kitty]

6. The promises weren't radical. The system is corrupt. eom

[sciencewins]

8. Unless there is Campaign reform this game will go on till the US is bankrupt

[DaveofCali]

9. I'm not an Obama apologist, but...

The reason that some presidents like FDR, Truman, and Johnson were able to get so much through congress was either that they had large congressional majorities or they did a lot of arm twisting, which requires a lot of connections and doing favors and under the table deal making (which is borderline bribery, and could be illegal in other ways), which perhaps Obama's inexperience comes into play (in that Obama is not experienced enough in doing aggressive political dealmaking.)

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Not bribery - horse trading.

"I want this vote - what do YOU want that I can help you with in return for that vote?"

or

"I want this vote - and YOU don't want XXX (a primary challenge/ to lose your next election/party funding/favorite earmark)"

It's really nothing more than very simple negotiations - but too much of the Democratic elite have NO background in that kind of horsetrading - not since we abandoned labor as a significant part of our base.

It's not really all that complicated.

[Tunkamerica]

14. Who has been experienced when they become president? A former vice president?

Was George Bush Sr. experienced? Richard Nixon is the only modern example who might be considered "experienced". I get that the experience can come from ... what? ... the senate? But to say someone is inexperienced at being President is like saying someone is inexperienced at walking on the moon.

[zipplewrath]

25. Yes he was

George senior probably had the best resume ever for a president. Ambassador to China, Director of the CIA, former congress critter, VP. Heck, probably the next closest was Ike.

[dennis4868]

16. FDR and LBJ...

Had huge dem majorities in congress and hardly ever gad to worry about a fillubuster and if they ever had to do arm twisting it was arm twisting of their own party and as you said I read that in many instances the arm twisting was illegal...if Obama had their majorities in congress then we would not be having a conversation of whether or not to extend tax cuts for the wealthy, HCR would look very different and more in line with progressive values, etc.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dennis4868]

15. Hello?

This is why Obama said during the 2008 campaign and even on election night that change will take time and will be very hard with many bumps in the road...I never forgot that and this is why I don't freak out everytime Obama does something that is not 100% in line with progressive values....but people here seem to think Obama said, "I will change everything 100% in line with progressive values in 10 minutes- guaranteed."

[Cherchez la Femme]

20. But he Does. Not. TRY.

If he tried it would be one thing -- but he doesn't. At all.

Christ, all the defensive spin defending Obama always seem to miss that very important point

I wonder why?

[dennis4868]

21. Yep....

That's why he used all his political capital on HCR, the credit card bill, financial reform, the college loan bill, and everything he has done (see www.whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com).

You can say the legislation does not go far enough but nobody with a straight face can say he has not tried). If the senate did not gave the fillubuster hanging over him, things would be alot different.

[Cherchez la Femme]

22. Oh puh-lease!

He left Democratic congresscritters out of the loop and out in the cold.
He did his secretive backroom deals with only Republicans, who by now KNOW they can manipulate him with merely saying 'Oh, Mr. President...'.

They treat him like a doormat, and he just keeps lying back down for them to walk over him.
Unless of course all he's done is actually his agenda.

I'm beginning to think that he indeed needed much more seasoning in DC
--yes, I said it: more experience--
to understand how that difficult, complicated town REALLY works instead of depending on the unique (to put it nicely) Chicago-style politics. How many 'deals' was he able to do with his political peers, how many favors was he able to accrue to call in IOU's when due?
And I didn't have a dog in the primary fight. My pick was Kucinich, and I knew that he wouldn't get very far just for the fact he 'doesn't look presidential' not matter how intelligent and cogent and principled his platform was.

Fuck. Lincoln would NEVER be electable to the presidency in this day & age!

Because I'm --or was, I'm seriously thinking of quitting the party-- a Democrat born I just waited to see who won the primary and would work, volunteer as many hours as I could to get she or he elected; just as I always do, I didn't like the DLC hawk (those two identifiers far outweighed her very good stance on LGBTQI rights) Clinton very much
but I also saw that both Obama's and Clinton's platforms were virtually identical

-- but nooooo, if you DARED say that here during the primaries you were shouted down, called racist (but those hating Hillary weren NEVER sexist of course! :eyes:) and were very likely to --and many did-- get a pizza delivery :puke:

The whole thing is pathetic and embarrassing.


And if you call the Health Care INSURANCE bill anything to be proud of, as worthy of 'using capital'

--he's actually acted as if he had no capital, and no mandate from the people, whatsoever--

then you certainly haven't been paying attention
or you are blinded by your expectations, not reality.


My face is perfectly straight -- and I aver, strongly, He. Has. Not. Tried!










****updated to rant. These days what can one do but rant?

and protest!

[cornermouse]

17. unrec for glaringly obvious reasons.

'Nuff said.

[harun]

18. Unrec, for you've got to be kidding me.