A question about incremental change

[quakerboy]

I was considering the idea of incremental change. It has been used to justify not doing things now. And there are some good historical examples of how it has been done to good effect.

How has incremental change worked over the past 30 years? I look around, and its hard for me, immersed in life, to see anything but examples of incremental change in the wrong direction (eg, forced birth terrorists and lawmakers chipping away at the right to abortion) over the duration of my personal memory. I would love to see this perception challenged or confirmed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Less Than Ten Years Ago A Gay Person Could Be Thrown In The Pokey

Less than ten years ago a gay person could be thrown in the pokey for having sex with his or lover. Look where we are at now...

[Exilednight]

2. Wrong. Being gay was not illegal. Sodomy was illegal in a handful of states ....................

but Lawrence vs Texas overturned the law. But sodomy does not equal being gay.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. That's A Difference Without A Distinction

But as I am sure you know there were states that outlawed homosexual sodomy while not outlawing heterosexual sodomy. And it was gay rights groups that were at the forefront of repealing Hardwick V Georgia which upheld Georgia's anti-sodomy laws.

[quakerboy]

4. That seems like quibbling

I can be straight without having vaginal intercourse, so outlawing it wouldn't technically outlaw heterosexuality. But as a straight person it sure would put me on the wrong side of the law.

[Exilednight]

8. I never said it ws right. I was just stating a fact. Being gay was not illegal, but the

act of sodomy was. In 22 states sodomy was outlawed for everyone, and in 9 it was outlawed only to those of the gay community.

Is there any doubt about whom such laws were aimed at? No.

Were these laws just? No.

But let's at least get the facts straight.

[quakerboy]

5. that is a good example.

In your perception what specifically have been the big advances? Was it lawmaking, was it court rulings, what was at the base of change?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. It Was A Successful Appeal To Folks Hearts And Minds

As far as the repeal of DADT the law caught up with people's attitudes...

[arcane1]

7. Some recent history from here in gay ol' lubrul San Francisco:

Incremental change over 4 decades:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Night_riots

[quakerboy]

14. Can you explain further?

That was interesting reading, I was aware of the outline of it but lots of details I didn't know. But I am having trouble seeing the incremental change. H8 still passed, no?

[arcane1]

15. Now we have things like Pride parades, briefly-legal gay marriage...

and police don't systematically beat the shit out of gay people.

I guess my point is that it didn't happen over night, and things were a LOT worse even during our own lifetime :)

[JoePhilly]

9. That's becasue the right enbraces incremental change, and the left does not.

The right will cheer the smallest victory. The left will not cheer victory for long if the outcome was not the ideal.

Its the difference between a ground game in football, and throwing a bomb for a touch down.

A sacrifice fly in baseball versus a home run.

Jab after jab in boxing leading to a victory via split decision, versus one knock out punch.

If we want our Democratic representatives to push more to the left, then we need to CHEER when the gain ground, and not vilify them when the political reality prevents the home run.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Enough Incremental Change And You End Up In A Very Different Place

As Exhibit A I offer President Obama.

[quakerboy]

12. True enough

And, just as with DADT, for some of us its hard to believe its happening until its happened. I will freely admit I woke up this morning with no belief that it would pass, despite all the hype. Sometimes I am wrong.

[quakerboy]

21. I am not sure that I agree with your premise

I do not see the right cheering their reps in each small victory. I see them showing up with guns and poorly spelled signs, demolishing their own candidates in primaries from the right, and otherwise demanding 100% ideological purity in the few areas of politics their media lets them see.

[JoePhilly]

22. That's a new and short lived phenomenon.

And it will pass quick.

The Tea Party was created to energize the right wing base. Sure, they show some anger at "RINOs", but their true focus is still 100% Democrats.

And ... consider that Scott Brown, and the new Govoners in NJ and VA are touted as "tea party victories" and yet those guys are ALL run of the mill GOP.

The Tea Party exists to elect GOP, and if they loose a few members to whack jobs, so be it.

[Uzybone]

11. civil rights for blacks and minorities is all incremental change

try and read up about civil rights

[quakerboy]

13. In the last 30 years?

It was a topic of interest, and one that I have taken several courses on.

Googling the subject popped up a timeline. lots of entrys for the 50s and the 60's. But they seem a little sparse in the 90s and the 00s. But perhaps there were more than I realized at the time?

[vaberella]

17. He's refering to when Blacks started being seen as human.

Our entire path to getting rights in this nation took over 200 years and it was through incremental change.

[vaberella]

16. widow's fund...percursor to ss. n/t

[quakerboy]

19. I would not argue that, but it is not the question I asked.

The impact of incremental change for the good was writ large early in the century, and on into the 50's and 60's.

I am asking about the last 30 years. where was it in the 80's, the 90's, and the 00's? Several posters have given me some food for thought. Glbt rights have continued to move forward slowly. But in most other things, my perception is that incremental change has been a movement which has turned against the people in that time. Financial law, business law, tax law. Privacy, human rights, governmental secrecy, etc.

[emulatorloo]

18. it is worth noting that the US GOVT is set up for incremental change, not rapid change

Courts Congress President. Checks and Balances = incremental change.

[lunatica]

20. Incremental change since Reagan by the Repubicans is a very real thing today

Incremental change can happen. We've lived 30 years of it without noticing until it's almost a done deal.