Vick is not a normal crook who went straight. He tortured innocents.

[onehandle]

He didn't knock over a liquor store or embezzle or counterfeit.

He was involved with the torture and killing of innocent animals.

Anyone here forgiving Bush for his involvement in torture? Anyone?

This was a bonehead move by the Administration and whoever set this up for President Obama should be fired.
_________________

Animal Fighting Case Study: Michael Vick:

“In or about April 2007, PEACE, PHILLIPS, and VICK executed approximately 8 dogs that did not perform well in ‘testing’ sessions … by various methods, including hanging, drowning, and slamming at least one dog's body to the ground.”

A report by a U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) investigator provided more details on the April 2007 killings, saying that the men hung approximately three dogs "by placing a nylon cord over a 2 X 4 that was nailed to two trees located next to the big shed. They also drowned approximately three dogs by putting the dogs' heads in a five gallon bucket of water." They killed one dog by “slamming it to the ground several times before it died, breaking the dog’s back or neck.”

According to a witness, the men fought their trained pit bulls with pet dogs, and they “thought it was funny to watch the pit bull dogs belonging to Bad Newz Kennels injure or kill the other dogs.”

They hosted fights at the Virginia property and transported dogs to other states to participate in fights. The fights usually occurred late at night or in the early morning and would last several hours. Before fights, dogs would be bathed to remove any poison or narcotic that might have been placed on them to hinder their opponents’ performance. Losing dogs sometimes died in the pit. Gambling purses were frequently in the thousands of dollars.

Dogs who lost fights were sometimes executed:

“In or about March of 2003, PEACE, after consulting with VICK about the losing female pit bull's condition, executed the losing dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal.”

When Davon Boddie, Vick’s cousin, was arrested on drug charges, he gave Vick's property as his address. Surry County authorities searching the property found probable cause to obtain - a second search warrant for animal cruelty/dogfighting. Police discovered:
- approximately 54 dogs, mostly pitbulls, some with scars and injuries; most were underfed
- about half of the dogs were chained to car axles and just out of reach of each other, a typical arrangement for fighting dogs
- a blood-stained fighting area
- animal training and breeding equipment, including a “rape stand”, a device in which a female dog who is too aggressive to submit to males for breeding is strapped down with her head in a restraint
- a “break” or “parting” stick, used to pry open fighting dogs' mouths during fights
- treadmills and “slat mills” used to condition fighting dogs
- assorted paperwork documenting involvement in animal fighting ventures
- performance-enhancing drugs commonly used to increase the fighting potential in dogs, as well as to keep injured dogs fighting longer.

http://www.aldf.org/article.php?id=928

[Aramchek]

1. Obama supports Dog Fights!! Obama supports Dog Fights!!!!

[ZombieHorde]

3. I doubt President Obama supports dog fights, buy you seem to support straw men. nt

[Aramchek]

10. oh, you know at root this is just another attempt to tar Obama

nobody really thinks he approves of what Vick did.

but they sure will act like he did to score political points!

[ZombieHorde]

18. For a few people, this is probably about taring President Obama, but there are many on DU who love

dogs. I love dogs. Many people on DU have been attacking anyone who has shown support for Vick. The outrage was here long before President Obama offered his two cents.

I agree there are many here who will not give President Obama any credit for any of his accomplishments, yet they seem to revel in his failures, but the Vick outrage is hard to attack because it is already established, unless of course some take it to far.

[Aramchek]

31. they'll use any ammunition they can get their hands on, apparently

[roguevalley]

19. this is a commentary on a boneheaded move by Obama.

he can make them. he's human. You wait. he'll hug someone else, a bushie or something and then what? no one can comment on that? HE did a stupid thing here. just fucking stupid.

[PufPuf23]

62. It is all about policies, Aramchek.. Seiously who could approve of the

scarred dogs and other torture from Vick. The result to dogs and humanity of Vick is objective and Vick cannot be pure because of innate potential but Vick and the world have been calmed to the degree possible by media and PR. Money always helps

We agree that this is by the thinnest of threads to POTUS Obama almost to the degree of irrelevant except perhaps Obamas bubble?

Did you realize that there is a movie of Radio Free Albemuch in the works?

http://sfgospel.typepad.com/sf_gospel/2010/10/radio-free-albemuth-the-politics-of-mystical-experience.html

You probably know that Aramchek is the ill defined villian ala Osama Bin Laden or Goldstein in the novel that may or may not exist aside from the manufacturer of the manhole covers in the childhood neighborhood of the softly totalitarion fascist Ferris Freemont and Horselover Fat?

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. You must have access to info I don't have - when did Obama say he supports dog fights?

An actual citation would be required for this.

[Aramchek]

12. obviously, since Obama said something positive regarding Vick he must, right?

:sarcasm:

[Rabrrrrrr]

14. Of course! I forgot about the liberal purity codes.

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[demosincebirth]

27. LOL!

[Raine]

8. Are you serious or sarcastic

what's your point :shrug:

[Aramchek]

11. just helping the OP get to the point of what they really mean faster.

and if they don't think Obama supports what Vick did,
then what's the problem???

[roguevalley]

20. considering the number of criminal types he could have hugged

to his bosom, he chose a guy who doesn't have empathy for the suffering of something almost akin to children: a voiceless victim who can't get help. He could have chosen anyone else to hug but he chose a dog murderer, a rich SOB who made money maiming dogs and prancing around with his dick out pretending to be a tough guy. He plays football. That is why our Jock in Chief hugged him with his remarks. I guess if you are a fucking athlete you can do no wrong. Just spend a few bucks, look sad and even the president will hug you. BS

[CakeGrrl]

26. "Hug"? Where was the President "hugging" Vick in his statement?

First off, this is a prominent example, given the fact, like it or not, that football playoffs get a lot of attention in this country and the Philadelphia Eagles are in their playoff position, much as some here hate the idea, because of Vick. Vick gets enough attention on DU to make the point.

I didn't see anything in the secondhand account of the President's comments that indicated that Vick was being patted on the back for being a great guy. Where does someone GET that idea?

The President was commending the Eagles organization for being willing to give a convicted individual a chance to rebuild after serving jail time.

Where did Vick get "hugged" in all that?

[Aramchek]

32. so you think Obama implicitly approves of what Vick did?

[onehandle]

13. Fail. nt

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ohio Joe]

4. I would be willing to forgive bush...

After he served his time. I would expect that to be many hundred years for all his crimes and would want his corpse in the cell to serve the entire sentence. Then I could forgive him.... Well maybe... I say we try it and find out.

[stray cat]

6. Most crooks hurt people who are innocent

[onehandle]

16. Not the same. nt

[Teaser]

24. that's a statement, not an argument

.

[Recovered Repug]

7. Since Obama went through with it,

should he be fired - or at least forced to resign?

[spooky3]

9. I'm one who believes that only the victims can forgive the perpetrator.

Those poor dogs.

[Skittles]

15. he is a sociopath

[Critters2]

17. +1 nt

[polmaven]

35. I - um - assume

you are talking about Vick, not the president --- Right???? :hi:

[peoli]

37. -1. you dont know what a sociopath is if you think hes a sociopath.

[sofa king]

42. Newt Gingrich. Now there's a sociopath.

[emilyg]

21. I am watching the Falcons - Saints game and I am

very happy the Falcons didn't take disgusting Vick back.

[tularetom]

22. Michael Vick is a low life piece of shit

And the President showed evidence of a political tin ear by making a statement encouraging his "rehabilitation".

There are a bazillion former prisoners who have been given a second chance and made good on it. He didn't have to cite as an example somebody who tortured dogs.

Does this mean I dislike the President or won't support him in 2012? Of course not. I will support him wholeheartedly and contribute to his campaign to the best of my ability.

But he fucked up big time by appearing to support a dog killer. And I'm disappointed that he apparently failed to anticipate the reaction he might generate.

[shireen]

30. +1

[tekisui]

36. Well said.

And those who use this as another moment to praise the President show their political tin ears.

[AndrewP]

41. Again

[jesus_of_suburbia]

73. "And those who use this as another moment to praise the President show their political tin ears"

what wouldn't they praise him for?

We all know who they are.




:7

[vaberella]

45. When did Obama do that? All that was said was that Obama gave praise to Lurie.

Not Vick. Obama gave praise to Lurie to taking a chance on an ex-con that most would not take a chance on....as seen from the posts on this board. Additionally most of those reports are not taking Obama's words verbatim. They are making up those words to sell the story and you're eating it up. So you don't believe that Obama may have been misquoted. While it's now been made clear he called Lurie for one main reason which dealt with the environment and on a side praised him for hiring an ex-con. End of story.

I don't see how Obama supported a "dog killer". Get your facts man. But I see running on conjecture is better.

[tularetom]

46. Sorry but Michael Vick cannot be rehabilitated

There should be no second chances for actions like the ones he took. As far as I'm concerned sitting his miserable ass in a cell for the rest of his life would be the least that should happen to him. The only reason Lurie "took a chance" on him was he thought there might be the opportunity to make a buck. And I don't know whether Obama was misquoted or not. If he was praising Lurie for his efforts to convert his stadium to green lighting that's fine. He erred in praising him for hiring this scumbag.

I have a fairly large capacity for forgiveness. But there are some this I can't forgive and animal cruelty is right up there at the top.

I support the president and I'll vote for him in 2012. I think he has accomplished a lot in two years. But that doesn't mean I have to keep my mouth shut when I think he has fucked up. And fucked up is what he has done by letting himself get connected with a piece of crap like Vick in any form at all.

[martymar64]

56. Obama didn't have to say anything - but he did and it was a politically dumb move

He should have kept out of this, he doesn't have to comment on every single thing that happens in this world. Now it appears that he is either praising a dog killer or praising somebody that "took a chance"on a dog killer. Neither one is a desirable perception to put out there. If he had kept his big mouth shut or said "no comment" if asked, this would not have been an issue.

We as a country need to stop fetishizing professional athletes. They are not good role models.

[Pisces]

48. A lot of young, urban, black youth look up to VIck and might see it as an example that they too can

get a second chance if they straighten up their lives. This statement from the President wasn't meant for you, it was intended for urban, black youth. Of course, your anger blinds you to anything
positive in the message.

[Dreamer Tatum]

76. Wait a minute - are you saying Vick blew his second chance? If so, provide evidence. nt

[BlueIris]

23. A president of integrity would not be applauding second chances for anyone who does this.

This is my problem with his comments in support of Vick's reinstatement. It simply wasn't presidential. Hardly the least of the things Obama has done that are beneath the office of a president, but one of the most hurtful.

[earth mom]

55. Obama let the bankster gangsters get away with the theft of the century and let * & Co

get away with murder, torture, treason. HIs attitude toward Vick is just more of the same.

The cold hard truth about Obama is right there on the wall for everyone to see.

:puke:

[PufPuf23]

64. I can handle mistakes and uninformed mis-statements

but POTUS Obama has too often been in the realm of crafted lack of integrity.

Regardless and despite severe disappointment, I will vote Obama in 2012 given no better choice to the left.

In fact, despite the tax deal, post midterms has been relatively favorable.

We are being mislead about war and violence and criminality as a nation, POTUS Obama may very well not be in charge or fully informed.

Likewise regarding financial institutioans and status.

[craigmatic]

25. I don't care about the Vick thing. There are worse things than what he did.

Anyway he paid his debt to society so we should all let it go. Bush won't even be brought up on charges.

[COLGATE4]

47. +1

[AndrewP]

49. I don't think I will let it go. I'm not into dog torture. But thanks anyway.

[muffin1]

51. He did not pay his debt to those dogs.

I don't know how anyone can look at the pictures of those tortured, mangled dogs and think, "Yeah. That guy deserves a second chance".
For some reason, society (and now Obama) has decided that he should get a second chance anyway. I don't have to agree with it.

I, like the poster above, have a huge capacity for forgiveness. I can forgive just about any crime when the perpetrator is repentant. In fact, I forgave my first husband EVERY time he beat me during our marriage. I forgave him for spending all our money on shit. I forgave his infidelity. I can see second, and even third chances for most offenders - be they muggers, bank robbers,crack dealers, or pretty much any non-sadistic criminal. But what Vick did is UNFORGIVABLE. Just looking at the pictures of those poor dogs makes me cry and want to vomit.
He and his cohorts actually CAUSED that pain - REPEATEDLY. Anyone who can torture dogs over and over is a SICK FUCK. There is something REALLY wrong with him that prison time cannot help.

Fuck Vick.

[craigmatic]

52. PETA says he's ok now and you really can't get more pro-animal than them.

I'm vegitarian and I used to have gold fish and pet dogs on occasion. I never abused them or even thought about it. I don't get why people are still so upset especially when we live in a society where the majority of the people eat meat. It makes no sense to me why we care so much about dogs but so little about cows, pigs, chickens, fish, and sheep. Those are animals that strike me as barbaric to hurt especially when they don't hurt people. Killing and eating millions of cows and sheep just strikes me as wrong but people do it everyday and it's ok but Vick can't be forgiven for fighting dogs.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[craigmatic]

63. Yes they do. They higt them over the head with a sledgehammer and cut their throats.

I don't know your definition of torture but that seems like torture to me. All Vick did by comparison was break their necks. It's funny that people are selectively outraged by which animals get tortured and/or killed and which ones don't.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jennicut]

67. Most people in prison do not get a lot out of prison time other then society says they belong there

for some period of time. Real treatment and actual rehabilitation is looked down on in this country. People that torture animals go far beyond getting a mere thrill from it. Real psychological issues going down there. As someone with a psych degree and background I just find it interesting that many people's responses is to simply throw people like this in jail rather than actually treating the problem. Since laws against animal cruelty are not lifelong sentences then people like Vick are back out in society.

[martymar64]

57. Somebody should sic a bunch of angry dogs on Vick. Let him see how it feels.

Vick is scum and Obama has tied his name to Dog Kille for better or worse with this boneheaded move.

[creeksneakers2]

28. Vick is very hard to forgive

But he's served his time and apologized. Bad people can change and when they do I hope they are given a second chance.

I still can't cheer for the Eagles though, even though they are a home team here in PA. I hope I can someday, but even though forgiveness is right I haven't accomplished it yet.

[martymar64]

60. Sorry, I hope the Eagles lose big for this.

His apologies are just show so he can get back on the gravy train.

I hope he gets hurt really really bad.

[Gman]

29. Gimme a friggin' break

you need a life. This belongs in the Lounge.

[victoryparty]

33. I hope the Eagles win the Super Bowl and then...

...Bo bites Vick on the leg at the Rose Garden photo op.

[cali]

34. they won't and Vick won't get MVP either

[Vicar In A Tutu]

38. The issue for me iies more with the legal system

His crimes warranted at least a 15 - 20 year sentence in my view. At least...if it were up to me, you'd be looking at more like 30 before parole was even considered. However, in the eyes of the United States' legal system, they didn't and therefore, operating within the confines of the law and the display of penitence is all that can realistically be hoped for from Vick.

I think Obama commending the Eagles' owner on offering a citizen a second is something which happened in private, and I believe it should have remained there. I cannot imagine that he would ever condone such a horrible crime, but ultimately, the law says that Vick served his time and that he cannot own dogs. Now, I think the core point is sound - if people do not give ex-felons a chance to forge a decent path, they're that much more likely to reoffend and cause much more grief in future. Was Vick a good example? No, but again, this was a private conversation. No one knows how many other people or ex-cons Obama has praised for turning their lives around. I don't imagine all of them feel compelled to run to the press.

Finally, Vicks crimes were heinous. However, crimes of a similarly diabolical nature are being committed on a much larger scale on a daily basis against farmyard animals. They are bloodied, beaten, pumped full of antibiotics and steroids, left to eat their own waste, kept in squalid, tiny cages and generally left to fester in what are effectively animal concentration camps. Vick is one man, that's an entire industry. However, that's taboo because - like health care - it's too big an industry to take on. In fact, reform, modernisation and humanisation of that industry is even more inconceivable, as most would rather take what they get and not think about how it came to be with them. I can't blame people for that as meat as product is so ingrained in most cultures. However, that doesn't change the fact that an evil greater than Vick's is allowed to chug along almost unchecked.

[S_E_Fudd]

39. Ask yourself this....

If it had been the trainers assistant who had done what Vick did, and got the punishment Vick did...do you think he would be rehired by the NFL after doing his time...?

Of course not...Vick is playing football again because he is rich and has talent....and there is almost no crime heinous enough that this football obsessed country won't overlook if it means an exciting game on Sunday...

I'm not mad at Vick for taking advantage of the opportunity to come back and resume his career...I'm ticked at the organization that made it possible...and a culture that allows them to get away with it

[tekisui]

43. One step further, even if such a criminal were to be rehired,

a lowly non-famous dog-torturer would certainly not be earning the support from the president and his loyalists here.

[Skittles]

50. aw heck, one step further

if this was a repuke prez they'd be screaming from the rafters - hypocrites, every damn one of them

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

40. Damn, why all this fuss over the guy who invented Vaporub? It's not like he's anybody important...

...like a football player or anything.

:shrug:

NGU.

[onehandle]

44. 'Cause I could pass that football

Look at me now
Four years of college
Famous professors
Tutoring me

Scholarship kid
Everything paid for
Food and vacations
All of it free

Day that I left
Everyone gathered
Their cheering still rings in my ears

Ray Wreck rah
Rah Wreck Ray
Rah Wreck
Wreck rah
Rah Wreck, Wreck
Wreck, we love you

'Cause I could pass that football
Like nothin' you have ever seen

Couldn't spell a lick
Couldn't do arithmetic
One and one made three
Thought that dog was C A T

But I could pass that football
Like nothin' you have ever seen

Couldn't write my name
Couldn't translate 'je vous aime'
Never learned to read
Mother Goose or Andre Gide

But I could pass that football
Like nothin' you have ever seen

Couldn't figure riddles
Puzzles made me pout
Where the hell was Moses
When the lights went out?

I couldn't even tell red from green
Get those verbs through my bean
But I was buddies with the dean
Like nothin' you have ever seen

Passed without a fuss
English Lit. and Calculus
Never had to cram
Even passed the bar exam

'Cause I passed that football
Like nothin' you have ever seen

Couldn't dance for beans
Mashed my girls to smithereens
Sometimes blood was spilled
Still my card was always filled

'Cause I could pass that football
Like nothin' you have ever seen

Then there was the week
Albert Einstein came to speak
'Relativity'
Guess who introduced him? Me

'Cause I could pass that football
Like nothin' you have ever seen

Had no table manners
Used to dunk my roll
Always drunk the water from the fingerbowl

Though I would not get up for any she
The prexy's Mom, age ninety-three
Got up and gave her seat to me
Like nothin' you did ever see

In our hall of fame
There's a statue with my name
There we stand, by heck
Lincoln, Washington and Wreck

'Cause I could pass that football
Like nothin' you have ever, ever seen

[treestar]

53. Yes, he is - the crime is the same no matter the financial status

or fame status of the person who commits the crime.

There should not be greater punishment for the rich and successful. Don't see what good that would do.

[earth mom]

54. Vick is a sick fuck and that Obama excused his crimes is unfuckingbelievable!!!

:grr:

[AtomicKitten]

66. It's unfuckingbelievable because it never happened. Pres Obama did NOT excuse the crimes. nt

[akbacchus_BC]

72. Blame Obama all the time, that is what they live for! Vick did his time,

his crime is abhorrent and he knows he cannot own a dog in his life time, that is punishment enough for him. I say, leave the guy alone and let him go on with his life. My only wish is that he could stand up and visit his dogs at dogtown and pay the people at dogtown for rescuing and keeping his dogs. That would be his ultimate vindiction!

[ncteechur]

65. Michael Vick did his time. Viva le Micheal Vick!!!! Play on!

Move along people.

[akbacchus_BC]

71. They won't move along and the reason is obvious, lock his black ass

for ever in some prison somewhere. I abhor what he did and he should never ever own a dog for the rest of his life. He did time but no, that is not good enough for some people!

[NatBurner]

68. freaky deaky

du can really be on some corny shit sometimes

[akbacchus_BC]

70. Thank you!

[akbacchus_BC]

69. I am not excusing Vick but how about those children in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[zulchzulu]

74. I talked to my puppy about the Vick brouhaha and she yawned and walked away

She's pretty up on what's going on.

[burning rain]

75. On one hand, Vick's paid his debt to society.

And if he's willing to play by the rules, I say let him play football: he's certainly good at it. On the other hand, the president might have better praised someone else's second chance, and not a millionaire athlete's. We already know the US treats millionaires right and that our politicians cater to them incessantly.

[awoke_in_2003]

77. This just in...

"FUCK MICHAEL VICK"

[ej510]

78. Did Michael Vick torture the animals or gamble on the fights?

I believe Vick was too busy playing football for the Atlanta Falcons. he did not touch the dogs, and the only reason most people who hate Vick are still angry, is because he is rich and black. where are all of these people at now. There are dog fights going on right now in every state as I type. The anger is bull shit.

[awoke_in_2003]

79. I really don't care...

I am so sick of hearing about him.