Sometimes there is so much hysteria & melodrama at DU

[Jersey Devil]

instead of rational thought and logic that it is wise to stay away for a while until the raging roils of hot water cools to a simmer, so I think that since it is also the holidays it would be a good time to take a break.

First of all, at least wait until we see what happens before condemning Obama to political hell as a failure.

Lieberman seems to be determined to once again prove himself relevant and some kind of high minded principled independent though all it seems to be accomplishing is proving him an obstructionist asshole and a total hypocrite since he was praising a Medicare buy-in during his campaign for veep and as recently as 3 months ago according to the videos posted all over the internet.

But for all we know he may suddenly see the light (if offered the right goodies in return). It also may turn out that the Medicare buy-in and trigger public option is completely removed from the Senate bill in order to get his vote. Then DU will continue to scream about Obama giving into him for a worthless bill, but again, even then we won't know because the bill will have to be reconciled with the House bill that does contain a strong public option. So it may be January or later before the final version gets to Obama's desk.

And even if that final version has no public option whatsoever and no Medicare buy-in, can you really say at this point that it is worthless without weighing what it does and how much an advance it is in other areas? Would it be "worthless" to have a law that says that you can't be denied medical insurance for pre-existing conditions? Would it be "worthless" to have a law that says your kids can stay on your policy until age 27 during a period of time they may still be going to school or looking for a good job or bouncing around from job to job with no medical coverage? Would it be "worthless" to have a law that limits medical insurance companies to a 10% profit? Would it be "worthless" to have a law that _______________ (fill in the blank for all the other provisions of the Senate bill).

I think we should chill a bit. Don't get me wrong - there is nothing wrong with pressuring for a strong public option, calling or writing the admin or your congress members and pushing very hard for it. But declaring the whole thing, and Obama, a failure at this point is very premature.

So after the holidays and the New Year's toasts and after all the bowl games and finally after the Senate and House bills are finalized and then presented to Obama for his signature, then I think it will be time to judge it and Obama's success or failure. Until that time it is perfectly fine to wail and moan but it accomplishes nothing and probably hurts more than it helps.

Obama is a pragmatist and is dealing with reality. I believe he knows he does not have the votes in the Senate without making a deal and there is nothing he can do about it other than what he is doing. After that, depending on what emerges in the final bill, he will either be declared on DU to be the biggest disaster to hit the White House since Hoover or a political genius the likes of which has never been seen before.

But right now? Nah, we're all just guessing because we really don't know what is going on.

[LoZoccolo]

1. And you know this? n/t

[Jersey Devil]

4. You think you're helping by stomping your feet and wailing?

Polls show slippage in the public's support for a health care bill. Of course Republicans have been doing their best to stop it but I bet they are tickled pink that the left is also helping them by declaring the bill and Obama failures before it even gets voted on.

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. You're in the wrong forum

This is the "Pick Worst Features and Amplify While Throwing a Shitfit Forum." You're looking for the "Calm Argumentation Forum." Unfortunately, that forum no longer exists.

[GarbagemanLB]

3. What fucking deal are we making? A deal entails both sides give up something. What the FUCK has the

other side given up?

Liberals went from universal coverage to public option to medicare buy in. Now there is nothing.

Please, tell me: what the fuck are progressives getting?

[neverforget]

5. screwed?

:shrug:

[Jersey Devil]

9. So you think the entire balance of the Senate bill is worthless?

Let's just take one item from the Senate bill: the ban on insurance companies denying coverage for pre-existing conditions. Would such a law, assuming that is all it did, be "worthless"?

Then add in the other things the Senate bill does. Are they all "worthless"?

Don't progressives want those things as well? To me they seem to be saying that unless they get everything they want they are going to take their ball and go home. Is that progressive thought? If so, count me out.

[kelly1mm]

23. Banning pre-existing conditions denials is worthless if there is no

cap on rates. "You have cancer, no problem, here is your coverage - that will be $29,000.00 per month, and thanks for your business!"

[driver8]

18. Exactly what I was thinking.

The only thing that progressives are getting is a good fucking over...

[Jersey Devil]

22. Is that really true?

Is a law that:

-Stops refusal to insure for pre-existing conditions
-Keeps kids on insurance policies until age 27
-Subdidizes health insurance premiums to those up to 400% of the poverty line
-etc., etc.

a "fucking" for progressives?

[AndrewP]

21. We are getting an empty gesture

enough to make Blue Dogs giddy, but that's about it.

[ginnyinWI]

6. he also thinks long-term and is not ruled by a 24-hr news cycle.

Which is a good thing.

I'm also reserving judgement because I have no alternate plan and he seems to know what he's doing.

There will always be people on here who like to rush to judgement, panic and protest every little thing. Just leave them to themselves.

[Jersey Devil]

13. Yes, and if some folks would calm down and think about it

they would realize that no matter what the Senate passes it will have to be either conferenced or reconciled to get to Obama's desk and at least some of the things in the House bill will be added back in. Will those things include a Medicare buy-in or the House's version of a public option? No one knows that, but they must know that whatever emerges will be better than the Senate bill that gets approved and hardly "worthless" as an advancement in health care reform that will hopefully pave the way for additional future reforms.

[lamp_shade]

7. Rational thought and logic? Here? Lately? Little to none any more. Sad.

Very few of such are posting here any more. I miss them.

[Armstead]

8. I'm very rational in life -- but right now I say Fuck Rationality

the kind of "pragmatism" and "logic" and all that otehr stuff is why we never get anything good done.

Their feet need to be held to the fire before they do something wrong, not after it is a fait accompli.

[Jersey Devil]

10. So how would you get Joe Lieberman to vote for cloture?

Without cloture there is no bill at all, a great big zero. Is that what you want rather than give in to Lieberman?

[Armstead]

11. I would rather they go back to the dtrawing board frankly

This bill will ultimately be worse for the very people it is supposed to help.

No matter what fig leafs they use, people are going to be paying more -- by force of law -- without getting any meaningful improvements in return.

Mandates to buy private insurance without a public alternative is exactly the kind of crap that pushes people to the Republican Party.

[Jersey Devil]

14. Well, that's exactly what Orrin Hatch is saying, what a coincidence

Something gets passed now or nothing after very early next year when the political season will prevent anything whatsoever from getting passed. That's what "back to the drawing board" will do for us.

I don't think that removing "pre-existing conditions" as a reason to deny insurance, certainly not a "fig leaf", should be delayed another minute. Even if all the bill did was that it would be a step in the right direction.

You have to learn to walk before you can run. Little steps may not seem totally satisfying but they are necessary.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jersey Devil]

17. OK, you're not like Hatch but maybe more like a mackerel

As for the Hatch "snipe", I really do believe that having progressives condemn Obama as a failure while he is in the middle of working for a health care bill adds to the public cynicism about it and retreating support numbers in the polls. If you don't want to be associated with Hatch I certainly can understand that, but you're taking his bait so maybe a mackerel would have been more appropriate.

So as a practical matter, what is wrong with a strategy that shifts to incremental steps when Obama realizes that as a practical matter he does not have the votes to do everything he wants done all at once? Would pulling the entire bill make him a success, so that nothing whatsoever is done perhaps for a generation, as Biden was quoted as saying in another post?

[Armstead]

19. My idea was more in retrospect of what could have been done...As for now., it;s already a debacle

The pooch has already been screwed. So we will probably get stuck with the mix of good and awful that is in the bill now.

Just so you know, (and don't assume I'm just an advocate for delay or "the perfect") I have been a strong believer in meaningful health care reform -- including an alternative national public universal health program -- since the early 90's. It was endlessly frustrating to see Democrats ignore it for so long and I was really happy when they finally decided to take it up this year.

I was just kinda hoping they'd do it right when they finally got around to it. Silly me.

[Jersey Devil]

20. The disappointment is palpable and understandable

I know that and agree with you. But if there is ever to be any chance of real reform I believe that what is on the table must be passed and Obama saved from being declared as a failure less than one year into his first term. If the final bill (and Obama) is perceived as a success then we may have further shots at inserting important reforms incrementally. If not, then Joe Biden is probably right - the issue will not be broached for another generation.

So yeah, I intend to keep a smile on my face and a thumbs up demeanor about it though inside I am just as disappointed as anyone else. Any other reaction I am afraid will doom us to failure for many years to come.

[firedupdem]

12. Rec'd.....thoughtful, sensible post! n/t

[Clio the Leo]

15. Well said....

.... except for the "take a break part."

Dont let the negativity bother you. This too, shall pass. ;)

[whosinpower]

24. They could just call his bluff

Let him filibuster. Give him nothing. No deal. And all the while, allow the public to put pressure on Joe. With a mandate and without a public option or a medicare buy in - the bill is a monster that has the capability of decimating the dem's in the next election cycle.

That isn't declaring Obama's attempt a failure - it is taking a stand and saying this bill cannot lose the buy in or else it must also lose the mandate - and without those two key points - premiums will never be stabilized or lowered.

Let him filibuster until he is blue in the face. Let him - and them fillibuster through Christmas. It becomes a test of their will over 59 other senators. Does it not?

[Cha]

25. There was hysteria and melodrama on DU

when the Public Option was in..it still wasn't good enough. And, now those who were raging before..want what they didn't want back again?