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In a Swift Boating world, was Sarah Palin wise to hit back?

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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 12:59 PM
Original message
In a Swift Boating world, was Sarah Palin wise to hit back?
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 01:00 PM by Democrats_win
We recall that John Kerry made a big mistake in not defending himself against the false Swift Boat attacks (were they funded by RW extremists?). So was Sarah Palin politically wise to not just sit there and take it? Or should she have realized that in our 24/7 news cycle her cross hair map might soon have been forgotten.

Yahoo reports that "Hank Sheinkopf, a New York-based Democratic political consultant and devout Jew. 'This will forever link her to the events in Tucson. It deepens the hole she’s already dug for herself.' " http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20110112/pl_politico/47477_1


edit: spelling
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. More misuse of the word Swiftboating.
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 01:04 PM by ProSense
No one is lying about Sarah Palin. She is being condemned for her violent rhetoric.

The article you linked to and the context of the statement is based on her accusation: Palin charges critics with 'blood libel'

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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Does she even know what "blood libel" means?
Blood libel (also blood accusation) refers to a false accusation or claim that religious minorities, almost always Jews, murder children to use their blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals and holidays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

Has anyone accused her of murdering children in order to use their blood for religious purposes? She really needs to learn to look up the meanings of phrases before she uses them. :crazy:
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I'm not even sure she would have heard the term
before last weekend. I think someone had to teach her that.

Yes, she's misused the term mightily. Yes, she's fundy. Yes, she's dominionist. But Fundy talk around here at least doesn't include terms like "blood libel" for self talk.

So I think some "consultant" taught her that it would be a super charged word without explaining why. And she being who she is, wouldn't ask questions.

"the dog whistle from hell" indeed.

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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. That's a good point, swiftboating implies lying.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. And believing the lies of the media when it comes to a Democrat we don't like n/t
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 12:52 AM by politicasista
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. Yes but the general point remains. Once a negative meme about you starts gaining traction, you fight
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 04:13 AM by stevenleser
it, or succumb. That is the mistake Kerry made. He let it go too long before starting to fight.

In Palin's case, it WAS true AND she fought back with the mental resources of the idiot she is and thus made things worse for herself, but her strategy was one of two potentially correct ones IMHO.

Of course, the better of the two potentially correct courses of action, again IMHO, would have been to say something along the lines of, "It was not my intention for something like this to happen, but I see how semi-aggressive rhetoric could contribute to events like these. I apologize and will endeavor to use less inflammatory rhetoric in the future."
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Kerry responded immediately
There was a 30 some page summary given to the media of proven lies in their book. This was the SAME first response that Obama had to the Corsi book. In addition, Kerry referred the media to his entire complete naval record that was on his website. This was done IMMEDIATELY.

Kerry was actually swiftboated twice on this. The first time was by the liars with the complicity of most of the broadcast media. The second time was in the wake of the loss when Clinton allies - and the former President - complained that Kerry did not respond. This incidentally ignored that Clinton was ON RECORD whining that Kerry was speaking too much of Vietnam - and not the economy. Via Carville and Begala, there were reports in September complaining that Kerry should be speaking of the economy, not national security or Iraq - which was "Bush's issue".

The fact is that Kerry's numbers went up when he made that shift - and it was done because he sided with Cam Kerry and David Thorne over the entire Democratic establishment. National Security was the voting issue that year and Kerry's expertise there nearly led to an improbable win. In fact, the goal of Rove with the SBVT, was to raise questions on Kerry's character, honesty and integrity -- using one of the strongest reasons that Americans had to see that Kerry is an extraordinary man - especially on those counts.

But, by December 2004, when there were signals that Kerry could run again, there was a need to use that to make him a less attractive candidate and to posit the Clintons as the only people who successfully fought back.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. They don't care. People act like Kerry did nothing
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 02:14 PM by politicasista
but cry in his beer on a couch. Facts never get in the way of Kerry/Obama bashing.

They only believe things in the media if it's a Democrat they don't like. When it comes to a favorite Democrats/Liberals, the media is wrong, but when it comes to Kerry (and sometimes Obama), it must be true.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. People don't care
As long if lies from the media aren't about my favorite Liberal/Democrat, it must be true.
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. There's so much wrong in what Palin said/did today
First of all, the timing. To post an 8 minute long video prior to the memorial service was shameful!

Second, her use of the word "blood libel" which I'm not sure she wrote this, or knows the original connotation.

Third, her "I'm the victim" attitude which, we shouldn't be surprised . She needs psychological counseling.

The speech was rambling and seems to blame the media. Oh, isn't she part of the media being a FOX contributor.

There is something wrong with her to have to grab the spotlight, particularly today.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Palin OWNS the Hit List she posted targeting Rep. Giffords specifically.
Whether there is a direct correlation to the assassination attempt or not is irrelevant. She is responsible for her violent rhetoric. She is not the victim here.

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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Astute question, IMO.*

*disclaimer: I think she is reprehensible and a blot on the political landscape.

Even so, her statement today reinforces her image and draws support from her fan club. She's in the news, in the loop and consistent with her (godawful) image. Lee Atwood would be proud.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. That may have been her intent
and once again her instincts are shown to be way off the mark and highly insensitive.
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ShockediSay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think: she's just another Paid Propaganda Pump for
the Corporate Money Crypto Fascist Right Wing

Compare her net worth before her resignation as a public servant and
after, now that the's a Right Wing Propaganda Pump.

Propaganda provokes
It did mid 20th century and it does now

And guess where the Tea Party enabling money is coming from.
When Fascism comes in the United States it will come draped
in a flag and carrying a cross.
Sinclair Lewis
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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I never thougt of that. Pumping it up for profit.
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ShockediSay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. And I'll bet those paying into Palin & the Right Wing Propaganda Machine
are the corporate money billionaires that don't want to pay their fair share of taxes.

They pay less now than they have in the past 60 years.

And that's too much for their greed, hence they want smaller government and lower taxes, even at the cost of Social Security and Medicare.

So's their Big Businesses can have their way with 98% of US and not have to worry about
being held to accountability by Our US Government. So they pay for the Propaganda that keeps telling us our problem is big government. Hell, what got us into this mess was the Billionaires and Millioaires in the the top 2% of the US wealth holders ...

...
IMHO
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. There's no swiftboating. It's just that using gunsight imagery against a Congresswoman
who later turns out to be almost assassinated invites some natural and proper scrutiny of political speech and tactics.
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RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Apples and oranges...
If someone said she went to Arizona and handed the gun to the shooter...which would be a lie...that would be swiftboating. No one has said that she is responsible for the shooting. They've have only said that her rhetoric is not useful and potentially harmful.

Furthermore, the words Sarah Palin and "wise" do not belong in the same sentence.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Your premise is wrong
The campaign's immediate reaction to the August attack was to put out 36 pages listing lies and discrepancies in the book. That was done within ONE DAY of the book's emergence in August. This should have been sufficient to spike their attack. How many lies are people usually allowed when they are disputing the official record, offering nothing - not one Telex, photo, or record sent upward discussing Kerry as the problem portrayed in the book - as proof. They also later proved the links to Bush - in funding, lawyers, and in one case the B/C people were caught passing it out. In addition, Kerry surrogates including some of his crew, Rassman and Cleland countered it.

That was far more proof countering the liars than the Clinton machine ever put out on anything. The problem was that it went to the media and they refused to play the role of evaluating who was telling the truth - the Washington Post's editor even saying they wouldn't. The broadcast media was worse. Would Obama have done as well if the networks and cable TV failed to give coverage to his speech on race in the furor over Reverand Wright? We need to be prepared to help Obama, if the media turn back to 2004 mode now that we are in the general election.

It wasn't that we had no ammunition to use. There was an abundance of proof - far more than would be typically available as they hit against a well documented official record. Even before the August re-emergence, the Kerry campaign had already provided the media with more than enough backup for them to reject the August attack out of hand.

It should also be mentioned that it was not Kerry's accounts they disputed, it was the NAVY's official record. Backing the NAVY account over the SBVT, Kerry had the following:

he had 120 pages of naval records - spanning the entire interval with glowing fitness reports - all given to the media and on his web site from April on. That alone should have been enough.

He had every man on his boat for every medal earned 100% behind him. That alone should have been enough.

He had the Nixon administration on tape (that they thought would never be public) saying he was both a genuine war hero and clean, but for political reasons should be destroyed. (SBVT O'Neil was one of those tasked to destroy Kerry in 1971.) That alone should have been enough.

He also was given a plum assignment in Brooklyn as an aide to a rear admiral. From the naval records, this required a higher security clearance - clearly his "employers" of the last 3 years (many SBVT) had to attest to his good character. That's just standard. That alone should have been enough.

The then secretary of the Navy (John Warner) said he personally had reviewed the Silver Star Award. That alone should have been enough.

Saying Kerry did not fight back simply swiftboats him again - compare this list of proof to Carville & Co response on Clinton's Flowers or draft problems - this is far more comprehensive and completely refutes the charges. The Clinton responses in these two instances did not completely refute the charges - in fact, after changing his story a few times in each case - conceding that earlier statements were not completely true - parts of the charges were conceded. The difference was that in 1992 - even in the primary - Clinton was given breaks by a media that wanted him to win. The fact is that we KNEW in those two cases that he was willing to dissemble and scapegoat others when he was called on his actions - two things that later hurt his Presidency.

In any previous election, calmly and professionally countering lies by disproving them would have been the obvious preferred first step. It is only when there is no open and shut case (as there is here) that the candidate would try anything different.When this didn't work, Kerry did speak to the issue - and he did so before the Firefighters as soon as it was appear that the attack was beginning to hurt him. Many here - all political junkies didn't here this. Why? The media that gave a huge amount of free time to people they had to know were lying didn't think that it was important to give the Democratic nominees response air time.

In 2004, there were no You tubes - if there were, getting this out could have been done.

In addition, this is offensive. Kerry is a decorated war hero per the US Navy. There were no "holes" in his record. This was a RW character assassination. With Palin, the facts are not objective provable things. It is completely fair to say that it is unfair to say that her rhetoric caused the shootings and that needs to be conceded. However, that does not mean that her rhetoric has not led to the toxic atmosphere. Here, whether she has will be decided by people based on what they think of things she said.

In away, by making the issue JUST that her words caused the shootings - and disputing that, she is attempting to prevent people from going to the more general issue. However, she can't stop that natural process. This is a wake up moment for many. Many who might have been uneasy about the incredible divisiveness before are now saying it is unacceptable - it is not the America they want to think we are. Whether Palin likes it or not, people who were on the edge with divisiveness - probably on either side - will lose as people work to step back.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. +1. This will probably fall on deaf ears, but good post n/t
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 12:43 AM by politicasista
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. First, she did what people say she did. It is true.
Also, and big problem for her and her apologists, is the fact that this refutation of her violent rhetoric and in fact the bulls eye ad itself in specific was an already ongoing process. Even Hasselbeck had already condemned it. Giffords herself had condemned it. She's been told that her imagery is dangerous for months on end. Does she expect the subject would be dropped? The subject did not come up with the shootings, she had been called out and even warned about this for weeks, and basically her entire national career since McCain made her famous.
For her to have 'hit back' quickly, she'd have to have done that months ago. When the subject came up, which was before the shootings. She's been scaring the fuck out of people to sell books. And she's been getting told off about it for some time now. She was told she'd have blood on her hands, weeks ago. She was warned by people who are more experienced than she is. They said stop it, take it back. She doubled down. All of this before the shootings.
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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. The persona she and others have made for her will not
allow her to back up. She must keep coming forward swinging wildly. Dems should be taking her apart relentlessly.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
19. Linking Kerry to Palin. Like linking Obama to Bush
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 12:45 AM by politicasista
:rofl: :rofl: Rove would be proud.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. Sarah Palin is hoist with her own petard.
She cannot be 'Swift Boated' as her very own words have blown her political career to a shambles.


Unless she's lying about herself, and making things up to politically undermine herself, your position is null.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
21. She wasn't Swiftboated. She signed off on a graphic that literally targeted Giffords.
If she had any character, she'd deal with the consequences. She's just a weasel who wants to deflect responsibility any way she can.

This is the opposite of Swiftboating, and I don't care what she does in terms of response. She needs to leave the national stage. She contributes nothing useful.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
22. She is a ROOKIE IGNORANT GRIFTER who is clueless as to how she actually sounds
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. If Mrs. P were wiser, she'd take a vow of silence.
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craigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. She had to do something because all she did was talk about hunting and guns. Silence made her seem
guilty.
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