What Dean is saying on Countdown is absolutely chilling.

[rvablue]

I tried to stay optomistic for so long.

No cost controls.

No public option.

And I don't give a crap if some want to flame me. I trusted President Obama to do the right thing since he was elected.

But, I gotta say, I trust Dr. Dean. And he's saying this bill bites. I'm believing it.

[polichick]

1. I would so love to see Dean run for president again...

I'd work for him again.

[LSparkle]

4. I think we reallly put our eggs in the wrong basket -- Dean is the REAL deal

Especially hearing his clarity on the health care situation,
I felt total regret. You can bet your ass President Dean
would NEVER hire a chief of staff like Rahmbo E. (!!)

[polichick]

10. Many here tried to elect Dean and, imo, establishment Dems took him down...

For whatever reasons (I think we're seeing what some of those might be), the powers that be okay Obama this time around.

I agree, Dean is the real deal, which is why he's not part of this sell-out administration.

[elleng]

78. Establishment Dems took Dean AND Wes Clark down,

and kept Dean away from Dem Party 2d time around. (PS, rahm big part of all that.)

[LooseWilly]

84. Kerry was actually just... more appealing to me. And I'm hardly an Establishment Dem.

(as a matter of fact, until Kerry ran, I wasn't even registered as a Dem...)

Just saying...

That said... Dean has now won my respect and admiration... and I'd happily vote for him... even in a primary in '12...

Just saying...

[defendandprotect]

128. Kerry's numbers were bottom of the barrel -- and suddenly he was the candidate . . .

[Lydia Leftcoast]

211. Yup, and when I campaigned in Iowa, I saw little support for Kerry, and

suddenly he was the candidate?

(Based on what I saw and heard, I would have called it Edwards-Dean-Kerry, so the returns astounded me.)

[Boudica the Lyoness]

224. I was stunned as well.

It was kind of creepy the way he came from behind. No Democrat I knew cared for him much and then the next thing I know I'm getting letters from the State Chair etc supporting him.

[bongobobtherealone]

231. Well ladies and germs

This just shows how much of a role the fargin "Liberal Media" plays in who gets elected. Whoever has the most air time wins the nomination. It wasn't that long ago that BO was trailing Hillary by miles. Now look....................

The most coverage Dean got was for his melt down. Call it the scream that was heard around the world. I have to say though, when it comes to health care, Howie knows how the cow eats the cabbage~

[ljm2002]

245. Welcome to DU...

...and by the way, Dean's "meltdown" was manufactured by the media.

He let out a loud whoop at the end of his speech, which could barely be heard over all the commotion. But it was a directional mike, and the media was able to filter out the crowd noise and let us hear only the whoop. Voila! Dean was a nutcase, for all to see.

Only he never was a nutcase, his scream was at an appropriate volume for the surrounding noise level, he was giving an old-fashioned stump speech and built it up to a whoop, and the media cutthroats just chopped him off at the knees.

They do that to people who are threatening to the established order.

[defendandprotect]

236. It's a "reality" produced by the wealthy elite who control our elections ....

[bc3000]

155. I concur

I liked Kerry too. And I thought his war hero record would help him get elected. Little did I know at the time that Vietnam vets with multiple purple hearts could so easily be cast as traitors.

[freddie mertz]

136. To be fair, there was a lot of conflict between Dean and Clark supporters too.

Not that it matters now.

I'd vote for either of them at this point in a primary against Obama.

[elleng]

186. SOME, not a lot.

I was there. And I wouldn't call it 'conflict.' We disagreed about who was the better man.

FAIR had nothing to do with putting either one of them down. It came from high up Dems, doing whatever they could do.

[NashVegas]

178. Clark Was Put In the Ring As a Spoiler Against Dean

I guess you never heard about that one.

[elleng]

185. Thats pure bologna. (BALONEY!!!!!)

[Crunchy Frog]

222. .

[Lydia Leftcoast]

210. And Kucinich, too, as I saw, having seen the campaign from the inside

In fact, anyone who colored outside the DLC lines, including on the local level.

Remember when that one Illinois candidate who had come close to defeating Henry Hyde was bumped out of place by a DLC-sponsored candidate when she ran again? Remember how the usual suspects on DU argued that this was the right thing to do, because the previous candidate was "too liberal"? Remember how the DLC-sponsored candidate LOST?

[EVDebs]

227. I'm rooting for Kucinich in '12 nt

[Daphne08]

104. Yes, Dean was taken down.

He's too Progressive.

I'm 60-years-old, and many of these politicians I see today, many who call themselves Democrats, are NOT.

I can't believe how far right this country has been pulled in the last thirty years.

[whathehell]

110. +100

[peace frog]

116. +101

.

[defendandprotect]

129. The ironic thing is, at this point they may be sorry they didn't take him

into government somewhere -- he might have been easier to shut up????

There's a lot we wouldn't know if it weren't for Howard Dean -- and John Conyers, as well,

who seems to be getting a few things off his chest in the last two weeks???

If you're familiar with John Mitchell, he told us that this was going to happen --

that "the country would move so far to the right that it will make your head sping!"

And, Jack Ruby as well told us that --

And, wealthy Repugs have made this farce look like "reality" --

beginning with the faked religious right movement here in US.


PS: Forgot to say, completely agree Establishment took Dean down --

My son was very involved in that campaign -- a heartbreaker -- and now he doesn't want to

vote anymore!!!

[robinlynne]

194. I spend all my free time working for election integrity, and I don't even want to vote right now!

[SharonAnn]

166. Big media took him down. After he said he'd break up media giants, the coverage was suddenly bad.

All of a sudden, instead of portraying him as the leader and the hero of regular people and the shoo-in for the candidacy, he was portrayed as "over the top", too far left, scary, etc., etc.

And the change in media portrayal of him happened quickly, right after the interview where he said one of the first things he would do is break up big media and the media monopolies.

Interesting, right?

[pscot]

195. That's the danger in getting into a pissing contest

with people who buy ink by the barrel, figuratively speaking.

[peacetalksforall]

199. THE DLC TOOK HIM DOWN!. In a predestined decision. He iwas sensible

and honest with the voters.

[Upfront]

202. You are right SharonAnn

I well remember the whole deal. The scream deal was so dam phony yet good people bought it. I don't know if you could get Dean to run again but if he did I am behind him. Obama is a huge dis appointment. I guess I was sleeping.

[shireen]

204. +102

[AndrewP]

233. What's even worse are those who don't understand that fact.

[ljm2002]

246. I can't believe it either...

...I'm in the same age group as you and have seen lots of politicians by now, and what we have now in DC is a wholly-corporate-owned subsidiary of Big Business.

[DebbieCDC]

216. Spot on Polichick

I worked for Dr. Dean and was devastated by what the media did to him.

Of course they are okay with Obama -- he's corporatist, just like them.

That should've been the tip off in 2008, but we were all blinded by "hope" and "change".

[Butch350]

182. Typical ass american #2

[JDPriestly]

98. Here you go.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/

I'm thinking of joining again. I belonged at one point and then got involved in other things. I also like Kucinich. Let's see who has the stomach to run in the primary against Obama. We need to have someone because I don't think that Obama's polls will be high enough to embolden him to run again in 2012. He is just making too many mistakes. He is not motivating or handling Congress. His administration lacks the kind of courage and integrity that it needs to have.

[polichick]

121. Yep, I'm with you. Still get the emails and I'm glad they're still organized...

Look what the Obama campaign took from the Dean campaign - not only the online organizing but also the message. Dean's "You have the power" became "Yes we can."

But Dean was too progressive for the powers that be, and Obama only appeared to be progressive.

I'd vote for Dean over Obama in a primary. He represents us, while Obama represents Wall Street, the insurance/pharma industry and the military industrial complex - the status quo.

[PassingFair]

135. Please vote up the Countdown Video with Howard discussing this, so everyone will see it.

This viewpoint of the "HIPPA"
(Health Insurance Profit Protection Act)
needs to be seen by everyone.

[polichick]

177. My pleasure. nt

[JaneFordA]

157. How do we persuade Dean to run?

In Primary Season '12? I sure plan on "primary-ing" blue dog Democrats locally and state-wide and have no hesitation about doing the same with the Top Dog Democrat when the time comes.

[argonaut]

161. Dean's a demagogue, IMHO.

I'm sincerely glad he self-destructed with that whacky scream in Iowa, a Dean administration would have been a disaster. I've never understood why someone who was such a staunch centrist as Governor -- endorsed by the NRA -- is a darling of the 'left' of the party.

[newspeak]

192. that's pure bull

the MSM makes mountains out of molehills for a reason. And, they use repetition to get their meme across. Some of the biggest scandals they'll attempt to sweep under the rug or show it once and bury it, like *'s alleged insider trading. Then, something like Dean's so-called scream or a haircut, it'll be playing on every network--and the masses eat it up every time. Just like the Swift boat liar nothings-the MSM gladly gave them more airtime to repeatedly make a non-issue an issue. The corporations pick our candidates unless we look beyond the million dollar PR schemes shoved at us. I mean y'all know that * was a down home cowboy sort of guy, just one of us.

I saw that scream shite on TV and thought at the time "what's the big deal?" All I saw was someone that was excited over a campaign stop. But the MSM talking heads attempted to convince the plebes that Dean was easily excited and Dean may have a temper. It would be so laughable if it wasn't so serious.

[elias7]

203. what kool-aid you been drinking?

Must be the form over content kind. Forget the source, consider the words, the ideas. If you want to trash Dean, that's fine, albeit irrelevant. What's your take on what he has to say?

[DebbieCDC]

217. what bullshit

[Butch350]

181. Typical ass american #1

[the_real_38]

237. dittos ... Dean For President!

The media knew how dangerous he was in 2004, and teamed up on him with that edited speech where he rallied his followers after Iowa. This guy is standing up and telling the truth!

Dean 2012!

[lapfog_1]

2. Yup, Obama has jumped the shark.

Kill Bill.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. Please explain to me how this is Obama's fault,

since he's not a member of the Senate?

[appal_jack]

13. 'bully pulpit" my friend

Obama has failed to use the bully pulpit on behalf of meaningful health reform. This clusterfuck has his name on it as much as it does Lieberman, Reid, etc.

Hate to say it, but Obama blew this opportunity big time. Had he begun by calling for single payer, then perhaps compromised to the "you can keep your own private health insurance if you like it" level, but insisted on a robust public option to level the playing field, then maybe we could have a cause to rally around.

But this "reform" ??? Meh.

-app

[butterfly77]

154. Its the bluedogs fault..

and it has been all along. Everytime,that the Dems ran out and said they had something going then another fake Dem came popping out like Jack in the Box like,Stupak,Evan Bayh,Claire McCaskill,Conrad,Bacaus,Lincoln,Landrieu and no telling who else.


That is why many others are not running again because they really are republiCONS who have been trying to sabatoge everything this President tries to do...

[appal_jack]

162. true. n/t

[butterfly77]

230. Add Pryor..

and Testor I remember when the Dems fought like hell to get his fat phony ass in office..

[kirby]

17. Remember Bush?

Not only was he the President, but also the leader of the Republican Party.

Obama has not shown any leadership on this issue.

[lapfog_1]

20. The part where he, instead of telling the Democratic caucus

today that he would veto this piece of crap, instead told them that "while we didn't get everything we want, we still have a chance to pass health care reform".

Except it isn't health care reform. It never was. It was health INSURANCE reform and now, that's not only dead, we are giving the health care companies 30 million new members, and no controls on what they charge anyone. No competition. And not even fully subsidized. It's a tax on the uninsured middle and lower class. A huge tax. And there isn't ANY Guarantee that you will even get health care when you are forced into somebodies plan. Deductibles and premiums will still be there.

[ima_sinnic]

34. he never outlined any details of anything, just vague, undefined "reform"

he LIED and said "all voices would be heard" as he turned the "hearings" over to Max Baucus and the insurance company scum, didn't say shit when doctors and nurses advocating single-payer were actually thrown out of the "hearings," he didn't say shit when the teabaggers were all over the place all summmer with their distortions and lies, he didn't use his political power to persuade Dems to get behind a truly revolutionary, genuine health care system for all Americans (because he never presented any kind of plan or idea with any definite provisions)--3 committees in the House, 2 in the Senate (or might have been the other way around) with NOBODY bringing them together into anything ...

He could have been on TV outlining a vision, a real plan, something the American people would have been excited about, something nobody in Congress would have the chutzpah to obstruct, but he had JACK, NADA, ZIP. It was all vague "reform," and single-payer just a passing freak show, distracting from the real business of making sure, above and beyond anything else at all, that insurance company profits would not be threatened.

LBJ was not a member of the Senate, yet somehow, he got all the Dems to line up behind him, and the Civil Rights Act of 1963 was passed. Ironically, today, Obama would not be able to get even that to pass.

Need I go on?

[1776Forever]

124. This article on Conyers ripping Obama/Emanuel for lack of leadership says it all!

Conyers Rips Obama, Emanuel For 'Bowing Down' To GOP On Health Care

Sam Stein: 11-19-09

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/19/conyers-rips-obama-emanue_n_363702.html

..........."I'm getting tired of saving Obama's can in the White House," said Conyers. "I mean, he only won by five votes in the House, and this bill wasn't anything to write home about. The public option is only available, which is the only way you manage cost and get some competition to 1,300 other health insurance companies, the only way he could have got that through is that progressives held their nose and voted for it anyway."

Asked if the president had shown enough leadership in the health care debate, Conyers facetiously wondered why Press would ask the question.

"Of course not, of course not," he said. "You know, holding hands out and beer on Friday nights in the White House and bowing down to every nutty right-wing proposal about health care, and saying on occasion that public options aren't all that important is doing a disservice to the Barack Obama that I first met who was an ardent single-payer enthusiast himself."

.......

I am with you and I am VERY disappointed if anyone cares! It will be hard to get behind Obama the way I did in 2008. Very disappointed!

[defendandprotect]

131. Interesting by Conyers . . . of course . .

capitalism isn't about competition, it's about killing the competition --

And when you understand the role that competition does play in keeping

expenses down and reality in place, you have to begin to understand that the

Democratic Party's only compeitition is from the near-fascist GOP . . .

and that fact continues to move the Democratic Party to the right --- !!!


The nation and Americans need single payer health care ---

our Treasury has been bankrupted -- our jobs have been pulled overseas by trade

agreements benefiting elites --

Americans are dying for want of health care and the Democratic Party is faking

hoping that no one notices they're actually working for the corporations???

[1776Forever]

134. Amen - Makes you wonder just who is steering this ship?

:hide:

I put this on as a post for those that hadn't seen it and boy did I get a bunch of non-recs! Seems a lot of people don't want to have anything but positive remarks on here! Too bad! I think it needs to be said!

[defendandprotect]

139. The reactions are legitimate based on a corporate agenda being pushed . ..

and protected by Democratic leadership -- i.e., the dangers of having our

candidates pre-owned and pre-bribed by corporate money!!

I would imagine that the disappointment and discouragment is even much greater

outside of DU cause, I agree, there are many here who want to MUTE it . . . !!!

However, that will be like holding back a collapsing dam, IMO --



PS: Which reminds me that too often I forget to REC important articles!!!

[gorfle]

171. Money is steering this ship.

Money is steering this ship.

[ima_sinnic]

138. thanks, hadn't seen that--"(Obama) was an ardent single-payer enthusiast himself."

yes, wasn't he? somehow that "enthusiasm" died down after he heard about all the perks and bennies for going along to get along and not rocking the boat too much.

[subterranean]

174. I remember seeing Obama on TV outlining his vision for health care.

He made a big speech to Congress that was televised nationally back in September. He didn't spell out the concrete details of the plan, but did clearly outline how it would benefit the American people. I do think Obama erred in clinging to his dream of a "bipartisan" plan for far too long, and bringing people like Chuck Grassley into the process when they were clearly committed to sabotaging it.

[flyarm]

75. Leaders lead..he is no leader! eom

[burning rain]

90. We all know he doesn't get to cast a vote in the Senate.

But he could work Congress harder, calling members, meeting them, cajoling them. Rather like Reagan did, fighting like a dog for aid to the contras in Nicaragua.

[sabrina 1]

99. He is meeting with Congress, except they're Republicans

He spent a lot of time with Olympia Snowe, but what time did he spend with Kucinich or Anthony Weiner eg? And he met secretly with the Pharmaceutical people. Why? Why was there no transparency?

You're right, he did not fight, and I am thoroughly convinced from watching who he was talking to that the reason is, he is on the side of the For Profit Private Insurance Industry. His disdain for what he perceived to be 'liberals' has been apparent for a long time. His choice of Rahm Emanuel as COS was not because he didn't know who Emmanuel was, it was because he DID know. I now believe that Obama is a DLCer as was thought way back in the primaries when the DLC featured him on their blog as a 'rising new star' in the party.

Continuing to see him as simply weak is a mistake, imho. He is one of them now, whether he always was or not, I don't know. But they seem to be leading him around, rather than the other way around.

When he did meet with Democrats this week, Lieberman, his former mentor in the Senate, and who HE helped when we were trying to get rid of Joe, was there. But Lieberman is not a Democrat.

Our only hope is in the Senate now. The WH is a waste of time as they are waiting for Private Ins. to hand them a bill to sign and then they will declare it a victory.

[Kalun D]

100. FAIL

Obama beat the Clintons then he won the presidency

Now he has 60 dems in the senate and majority in the house

and he can't get meaningful healthcare? Give me a break.

It's because he doesn't want it. The people that own him don't want it.

He hasn't even tried.

Obama is a one term prez big time. Worse than any dem in recent memory.

[kenfrequed]

163. Ok..

I am not a cheerleader nor am I big Obama defender, but 'worse than any dem in recent memory'? I mean he hasn't passed another 'NAFTA' style trade pact. He hasn't 'refomred welfare as we know it' (gutted it.)

Lets have a bit of perspective here and stick to the damned issues. Yes he seems to have made a lot of bad choices policy wise and I think we should talk about that a lot and post stuff here and make phone calls and write letters. But seriously, save the stupid Hyperbole for the republicans.

[rapturedbyrobots]

198. NAFTA and welfare

played with people's work. healthcare reform is playing with people's lives. this is much, much worse. he's definitely worse than clinton.

[kenfrequed]

241. Hmm

It is hard to argue with you on that point.

[Kalun D]

235. Perspective

It is still early in Obama's term, so he still has a chance to redeem himself however he's gone the opposite direction on nearly every promise he made. Clinton more or less balanced the budget, Obama has gone in the other direction. Clinton did have some rights issues, Obama is worse on that for not reversing any of the bush boys assaults on the constitution.

Sorry about the invective, I'm just pissed how bad this is looking.

I'll save the hyperbole for the republicans and any dems that act like republicans, which Obama is not looking that great on.

[kenfrequed]

240. Err

The budget is nowhere near the top of my list of things I'm holding Obama to. Actually the supposed Budget Hawks claim to at stopping the public option or single payer healthcare for the purpose of staying 'budget neutral.'

And when I say 'save the hyperbole for the republicans' I'm not saying save it to use ON them, I'm saying let them use it. Hyperbole is for fools that believe the war on terror was 'Good vs Evil' or that there really is a 'war on terror'

[flyarm]

219. + 10,000..you have got it right on! eom

[Enthusiast]

117. President Obama was

strong in advocating a surge in Afghanistan but weak in advocating for a strong public option. WEAK! And he was the one that declared "Single payer is off the table." The question is why was single payer off the table? We lost as soon as he said that.

[rpannier]

125. I found this which probably explains it best

When Lyndon Johnson was fighting for Medicare, he was right there all the time arm wrestling the Senate, one senator at a time. He didn't just say: "Senate, please write a bill." He made sure everyone knew what he wanted and what the personal consequences would be for every senator for both a vote for the bill and one against the bill. Obama has done none of that. He is both inexperienced and lacking Johnson's clear willingness to break legs to get what he wants.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

[Jefferson23]

130. I think you need to ask yourself, where has Obama been?

He had no problem influencing progressives for what he considered a priority, when did he apply pressure to the Blue Dogs and Lieberman?


White House Browbeats Dem Freshmen On War Money: "You'll Never Hear From Us Again"

Huffpost - White House Browbeats Dem Freshmen On War Money: "You'll Never Hear From Us Again"

The White House is playing hardball with Democrats who intend to vote against the supplemental war spending bill, threatening freshmen who oppose it that they won't get help with reelection and will be cut off from the White House, Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.) said Friday.

"We're not going to help you. You'll never hear from us again," Woolsey said the White House is telling freshmen. She wouldn't say who is issuing the threats, and the White House didn't immediately return a call.

Woolsey said she herself had not been pressured because the White House and leadership know she's a firm no vote. But she had heard from other members about the White House pressure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/12/white-house-browbeats-dem_n_214870.html

[defendandprotect]

132. Was that Obama meeting with the Pharmaceutical companies in the White House???

[CrispyQ]

179. His leadership kung fu is weak.

His political capital was at it's most potent his first year in office & he's squandered it. Next year, when we lose the majority in one of the houses, or both, he will not be able to get anything done.

But he gives a pretty speech. :eyes:

[jefferson_dem]

60. BLAME OBBAMMA!!!1

:eyes:

[ima_sinnic]

141. you are free to be screwed over and not complain about it

most of us choose to complain.

If you don't understand the role the president can play in guiding legislation through Congress, well, live happily in lala-land, where nothing is the fault of the "leaders."

[readmoreoften]

200. Are you illiterate, or do you just create strawman arguments through misspelling?

The fact that you're not willing to hold your elected candidates responsible is despicable and anti-democratic. And your juvenile "freeper misspellings" to any argument you can't answer isn't just childish; it's tired and empty.

[FLyellowdog]

3. This is Congress' doing...not the President's. nt

[DontTreadOnMe]

7. Where does the buck stop?

The buck stops at the Whitehouse, NOT the Senate!

Obama gets ALL the blame... one-term.

[rvablue]

14. Didn't mean for this thread to be anti-Obama bait

but I can see you are all out in force, waiting for your red meat.

The man might just veto this POS if it gets to his desk. Max Baucus looked like he wanted to crawl and hide at the presser this afternoon.

So, the Senate bill sucks. Lieberman is a traitor and opportunizing traitor to the principles that got him elected and kept in office.

Obama is not a king or a magician. We live in a democracy.

[provis99]

51. he ain't vetoing anything. He WANTS this stinker of a bill passed.

On Oprah, Obama gave himself a B+ so far, and said he would deserve an A if this health insurance bill passed. I give his admin a D so far, and an F if this rotten bill passes.

[Enthusiast]

119. LIEberman has been a traitor for

long time now. Many seem to forget that he actually endorsed McCain and idiot bimbo Palin.

[NorthCarolina]

242. Lieberman is not so much a "traitor" as he is a trustworthy DLC member

He is pushing the agenda of the DLC which, unfortunately, is the same agenda that Obama has.

[rvablue]

9. I totally agree and that is why I've been supportive and still am

that is, if he vetoes this POS.

The bill as is, if enacted to law, is going to force people to buy private insurance with no price controls. Utter BS. And if the Dems (yes, the Senate, not just the President) do this, we're not going to see the inside the WH or the leadership side of the aisle in the Senate for quite a while.

[fasttense]

114. Removing the Mandate is a win-win for everyone.

After the removal of the public option, the mandate is what is making this bill worse than nothing. Without the mandate, no one is forced into buying from a bunch of thieves, Americans are no longer locked into health care through insurance corporations and the Democratic party wont be blamed for every death dealing lousy con the health insurance corporations play.

They could put the mandate on a trigger. If Americans start abusing the health insurance corporations, and the corporations can prove 30% of their customers are waiting until the last minute and causing undue loss in profits, then the trigger would kick in. Or just add the mandate later if problems come up.

Remove the mandate, pass the legislation, and President Obama and the Democratic party can do a happy dance and claim they have health care reform.

Then through reconciliation expand Medicare for all.

It's a win-win for everyone. The health insurance corporations still get some new customers from people who use the subsidies. The Democratic party can pretend to have done health care reform. The Republicons can claim they stopped socialized medicine. And Americans aren't getting a worse system and are getting a few tidbits of improvement.

Then using reconciliation pass Medicare for all.

[alcina]

170. Remove the mandate

fasttense -- I completely agree with you and have been wondering why I'm not hearing more people propose this.

I decided this morning to write to my senators -- and a few others -- to ask why they don't insist on this. Mr Lieberman et al are busily hacking bits out of the bill; this is just one more item that can be removed. And then, if the "reforms" are as beneficial as the Democratic leadership claim, those many people who want insurance but currently can't get it will be first in line to buy. As you say, a win-win.

Of course, if they won't remove it, it becomes painfully clear what the real goal of this bill is.

[lapfog_1]

22. Except today he could have told them that he would veto it.

Instead, he told the Dems to press on without anything worth passing.

All he wants is a bill to sign. That's clear now.

And THAT is his fault.

[jgraz]

24. Sure. Cuz the President didn't do a damn thing. n/t

[paulk]

27. hmmm...

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm

[ima_sinnic]

41. now isn't that convenient? since he never really advanced anything, he can't be held accountable

he got what he wanted, some kind of vague "reform," so everything's cool, right?

[freddie mertz]

140. Wrong. Obama failed to lead the fight. He failed to stand for anything.

He was either weak, or this is what he wanted all along.

Either way, it's a massive fail for our country, and the end of the Obama "dream" of hope.

Sell those commemorative plates and other souvenirs, toss those posters and fliers you saved in the garage into the dumpster.

This thing is over.

And I am heartbroken.

[Lilith Velkor]

160. Making Congress the scapegoat is all well and good...until 2010.

[MichiganVote]

6. The lobbying business wins again...........

[Popular Front]

8. Patience

Obama is one of us. He'll do the right thing. He promised universal health care. He'll deliver.

[rvablue]

11. Obama never promised "universal health care" -- don't know where you got that from.

Some RW disruptor website FAQ section?

[Popular Front]

35. Yes he did.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

[ima_sinnic]

48. what DID he promise, then? all I heard, ever, was some vague idea of "reform"

it's so convenient for Obama now, which was actually predicted several months ago--he can say, oh I "tried," but you see how those mean people in Congress wouldn't deliver or cooperate?

He comes out smelling like a rose and is free to funnel more of our taxpayer dollars to his CEO pals in some slick shell game glossed over with a pretty speech.

[rvablue]

52. ima, we do live in a democracy, ergo, it's not an excuse if the President

tries to get something passed and the Legislature doesn't go along.

It's not fairy tale. It's how the Constitution is written.

[ima_sinnic]

57. please show me where he "tried"--sheesh

he's got all the leverage in the world (literally) yet he can't convince a few senators to do the right thing?
sorry, I don't buy this latest meme that "it's not Obama's fault"--I hold him 100% responsible for this failure. He was nowhere to be found this summer when Baucus was throwing doctors and nurses out of the "hearings," and he has never said jack about any details of a plan--so, conveniently, he had nothing really to "push."

[rvablue]

63. I guess you'd rather live in a dictatorship.

What is he supposed to do if greedy, crooked Senators have been bought and paid for? He's not the Messian, he's not a king and he isn't a dictator.

He can, however, veto a BS bill. Maybe he'll do it. We shall see.

I'm disappointed, too, but to lay this squarely and solely at the feet of the President is too ignore basic civics and the Constitution.

[ima_sinnic]

73. oh, Lyndon Johnson was a "dictator"?

funny how he could use his leverage to get a monumental, revolutionary Civil Rights Act passed at a time when some politicans were passing out axe handles to beat black people with and resisting any effort at desegregation on a level equally comparable to today's teabagger bonehead efforts, if not more.

As suggested somewhere on DU (not sure if it's this thread), he could go on TV and name names of obstructionists, and he could have galvanized the people by describing definite features of a plan that he was asking Congress to approve. Presidents "introduce" legislation all the time, and they know how to massage it and get it passed. I should have listened to those who said he was too inexperienced.

[rpannier]

127. Not just the Civil Rights Act

It's how he got Medicare passed

He laid out what 'Better be in the Bill.'
He went after those who dragged their feet
And pointed out the consequences for f*cking with him

[rpannier]

126. Here you go

link: http://www.electoral-vote.com/

When Lyndon Johnson was fighting for Medicare, he was right there all the time arm wrestling the Senate, one senator at a time. He didn't just say: "Senate, please write a bill." He made sure everyone knew what he wanted and what the personal consequences would be for every senator for both a vote for the bill and one against the bill.

That's how a PRESIDENT gets things done.
He/She leads the process

[ima_sinnic]

133. yes, thank you

tired of beating that erroneous dead horse that "the president doesn't make laws."

[Bluenorthwest]

165. He promised no mandated purchase for adults

over and over again, in every possible form, including the negative, that is 'my rival supports mandates and that is bad, so vote for me.'
Are you going to deny that as well? Did the man not run for two years in front of the nation? No mandates.

[shadowknows69]

109. Can I live in your world?

[CrispyQ]

180. I don't know about

universal health care but the bill as it currently stands will provide universal insurance coverage: Buy it or else!

The bill is shit & if he doesn't veto it, he'll be a one-term president, & deservedly so.

[Mz Pip]

12. Obama doesn't write laws

the Senate does. It would be super if Obama could wave a magic wand and make the Senate do what he wants. I'm sure he wishes he could too. But that is not how it works. The Senate writes the laws and right now I am so very very very pissed off at their inability or unwillingness to do what is right and get a good, decent, honest bill for Obama to sign.

I'm not blaming Obama. I'm blaming Congress.

[DrToast]

16. Then why is Obama sending Rahm down to Reid's office and telling him to bend over for Lieberman?

That doesn't seem appropriate.

I thought he was letting Congress do its job.

[rvablue]

21. Sorry, but from what I read what Rahm did was the opposite.

He ran over to the Hill when Traitorman came out with his BS statement.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

47. are you listening to the propaganda?

[Mz Pip]

76. I don't think we really know

what is going on behind closed doors except for speculation, innuendo and wishful thinking (on the part of the RW.)

Publicly Obama has hade it pretty clear that he wants health care refom that will benefit the people not the powerful. It's up to Congress to make that happen.

It's yet to be seen what lands on his desk and what he will sign.

[vaberella]

83. Tha was found to be false Rahm was pushing reconciliation and to dum Lieberman. nt

[rvablue]

Mz Pip, I blame Congress, well the Senate, well a handful of Senators for this

bill.

However, the President is the one who signs the bill.

We don't know yet. Maybe he will veto this POS. I'm still holding out hope something crazy can happen in conference, but from what I've seen and Dr. Dean said, it seems that nothing the extraordinary will go down.

[pundaint]

191. Every elected individual who has not fought for universal healthcare

is responsible. Talking isn't fighting. I would be willing to replace 95 of the Senators and 430 Representatives, including mine, with randomly selected people off the street. We could hardly do worse.

[Clio the Leo]

15. Ugh! It's like my man saying he's leaving me for another woman!

Or 13!


Fortunately, I've always had another man on the side...



... and he worked in the Senate for a minute.

[rvablue]

19. And? I'm not getting it?

Clio, I know you love you some Joe, but I'm not getting your point?

[rockymountaindem]

26. So you're going to abandon your support/trust of Dean over this?

Do you want good policy or a win for Obama? If you want good policy, you might want to take policy advice from someone like Dean who knows what he's doing. Otherwise you're just putting your head in the sand.

[Mike Nelson]

18. Dean saying kill the bill is a turning point for me

also. I think both the White House and Dems in Congress should be stronger... there are still a few strong voices. The big picture is that Dems had a majority and blew it... they should have gone with 51 and railroaded the bill through. That's what the Republicans would have done.

[Bleacher Creature]

23. Unfortunately, same here.

I really wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt, but I trust Dean way too much on this issue not to heed his warning.

[ChicagoSuz219]

249. It would've been too limiting...

They need this massive bill to go through... then, then can fine tune it w/51. (I hope, I hope... ;-)

[madfloridian]

25. Jed has the video up at DKos

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/15/814885/-Dean:-Keep-on-fighting-for-real-reform,-vote-no-on-Senate-bill

[IndianaGreen]

29. You should post this as a new thread

[janx]

31. OK...That's it.

I kept wondering where the "30,000,000" figure was coming from and how it would be funded. Now I know: through mandatory health insurance policies with private insurance companies.

This is a real disappointment.

[cascadiance]

28. KILL THE FILIBUSTER RULE! If you want REAL healthcare reform that is a MUST now!

If Dems are trying to find some lame excuse that NOONE WILL ACCEPT NOW, they'll act like Liebermann victimized them to screw up the bill! And THAT will lose them congress and the white house to ALL of our detriment!

KILL THE FILIBUSTER REID!

Republicans have to know that the way they're playing this game, that is ultimately what will happen, unless they know that there's too much Korporate influence over the Dems to have this happen, which is why they'll be laughing at us hard now as others say here.

And Reid can even use Lieberman's own words to champion Harkin's bill being reintroduced that Liebermann at one time supported.

"(People) are fed up -- frustrated and fed up and angry about the way in which our government does not work, about the way in which we come down here and get into a lot of political games and seem to -- partisan tugs of war and forget why we're here, which is to serve the American people," Lieberman said at the time. "And I think the filibuster has become not only in reality an obstacle to accomplishment here, but it also a symbol of a lot that ails Washington today."

[valerief]

30. Why does the Senate hate America so much? nt

[rvablue]

43. It's not "the Senate" -- it's a small handful of bought and paid for Senators.

[valerief]

44. It's at least 41 of them. nt

[rvablue]

53. Lay out your math for me please. Not so. n/t

[valerief]

58. You don't count Republicans voting against our interests? I do. nt

[rvablue]

61. Sorry, I missed the point. n/t

[Justitia]

32. And unfortunately, he is absolutely correct. I held on until now, but this is a dead horse.

And I trust Gov Dean to give it to me straight - if there was anything good or worthy.

When they killed the Medicare buy-in, I knew it was all over.

Gov Dean has just given us the truth, face to face.

Back to square one.

[janx]

36. I'm with ya. n/t

[depakid]

33. Dean has ALWAYS told it like it is-

and represented the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

At this point, I'm very pleased (as I mentioned numerous times back in January and February) that he's not part of this administration's fiascos.

[rvablue]

37. NO. HE. DIDN'T. Do you need "universal health care" defined for you.

Because he never supported that.

[Popular Front]

38. He did not support health care for all?

Please explain why he won the primary if he did not support universal health care. I watched all the debates, and I distinctly remember the pledge of universal health care.

[rvablue]

39. If you remember a pledge for "universal health care," if you even know what that term means

then your memory does not serve you well.

Never happened, and you advocating so heartily that he did, calls your motives into question.

[Popular Front]

40. Ok. I have no idea what you're talking about

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2287285/support_universal_health_care.html

[rvablue]

46. I agree, you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Candidate Obama never promised universal health care.

You can post as many links as you want. It simply is NOT true. Never was.

So, let's get back to the issue at hand. A couple of sell out, corporate paid for, hack Senators who are selling this country out.

I just hope PRESIDENT Obama vetoes the bill if it doesn't include a public option and price controls.

[ima_sinnic]

54. so what DID he promise?

why should he veto anything if he didn't promise anything?

He was not involved in shaping the legislation--he gave that job to Baucus as he went on vacation. Apparently he didn't care WHAT was passed, as long as it had the word "reform" on it.
He has never come out strongly for a "public option" (and I'd be afraid of it anyway, just some window dressing thing that would not be an alternative to useless overpriced private "insurance").

Vetoing would mean he actually had made a commitment to something--can you give me a link to someplace where he swore not to sign anything that didn't have a "public option"? He just met with the Democratic senators last week, and my understanding is that the idea of a "public option" was hardly mentioned. He's too wishy-washy and bought off to veto a health care bill without a public option IMO.

[Javaman]

156. Here is the basic differences, as I see it, between moron* and Obama...

moron* used hatchet men and blatant lies.

Obama, uses vague-ness and deflection.

moron* would make grand pronouncements, later to be proven completely false and stupid, yet would never apologies or explain himself.

Obama uses what appears to be clearly defined wording but upon examination, usually is completely vague with no paper trail back to him.

bottom line, politicians are all basically the same, it's just the tactics they choose to use to get what they want that are different.

moron* used a hammer.

Obama uses tactful vagaries.

[Better Believe It]

42. Next up in 2010 if this bill passes. Social Security Reform (cuts in benefits)

[jeanpalmer]

91. And this HCR is another step in reducing medicare benefits

Is it not? $400 billion, or ~40%, of the funding for the Senate bill comes from "Medicare savings." And everything I've read says these savings will come from reduced payments to providers. Aren't Medicare reimbursements already inadequate, to the point where some providers don't treat Medicare patients? And then when it becomes apparent that the reimbursements are inadequate, the patient will be required to pay even more of the bill, resulting in the further privatization of Medicare. Kind of what the Republicans have openly been advocating for some time, but done with stealth by Democrats.

I think the handwriting is on the wall as far as reducing Medicare and SS. The former is being done, the latter will be.

[SharonAnn]

168. No, the reduced $$ come from extra money paid to private companies so that

they can compete with Medicare.

Now, really, if someone wants to compete with Medicare, why should we pay them an extra 14% to do so?

If it costs private insurers 14% more to provide a Medicare like product and peole want it, then the people who sign up for it should pay the 14% extra. Not the taxpayers.

[Better Believe It]

188. So people paying more money to health insurance companies will lower our medical costs. Sure.

I'll buy that snake oil!

[defendandprotect]

144. Correct . . . if we fail here to get reform and end up with DEFORM . . . there will be more

DEFORM coming !!!

[CrispyQ]

183. You know it! They're salivating over it! --nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

45. I missed Dean what did he say?

[janx]

49. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x60763

[rvablue]

50. There is a link to the video upthread.

He said the President should kill the bill and start over.

There is no PO, no price controls and we'd all be forced to buy private insurance.

[Laelth]

55. k&r for the Good Doctor Dean. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[jefferson_dem]

56. I generally respect Dean.

This time, however. He's wrong.

[rvablue]

66. How so, JD? And what would be his motive for misleading people? n/t

[jefferson_dem]

70. I do not question his motivation...

and do not think he is purposely misleading people.

We simply differ on the next step. In my opinion, Dean has unrealitic expectations about what can and cannot be accomplished and is not giving proper consideration to the political and policy impact of "killing the bill". There's definitely no starting over. Reconciliation will not happen. Now's the time to get whatever "reform" we can get. I'm not totally happy with the bill but there's no question that it is a major league step forward.

[janx]

72. What do you think of his suggestion about voting in the parts

that will work without pushing the parts that don't?

[eridani]

95. An excellent idea. I've been pushing it myself for months n/t

[defendandprotect]

147. So every other nation, except America can provide single payer health care -- America can't????

The wealthiest nation can't provide health care for its citizens?

What we are up against in fact is CORPORATISM ... and if you think it is only going

to effect health care reform and not DEFORM much more of American life, you should rethink

that.

$600 BILLION/$800 BILLION for health care/pharm companies is not only sickening, it's

criminal!!!

[Selena Harris]

218. Check out Isreal and Iraq's health care

[defendandprotect]

234. Given the fact that we've been bombing Iraq for 20+ years, we should be paying

for their health care --

Don't know what Israel does or doesn't have, but they sure have weapons!!

Israeli and US weapons production are so closely intertwined as to be nearly

indistinguishable!!

[Crunchy Frog]

223. It's not all single payer, but it is all universal.

[zulchzulu]

59. Another Dean Scream. Big fucking surprise. n/t

[jefferson_dem]

64. Dude. I didn't want to "go there".

But :thumbsup: It fits.

[rvablue]

74. Pathetic. Never saw it lower on here. n/t

[Zomby Woof]

88. You've only been on here a year or so

You ain't seen nothin'.

[KansasVoter]

79. LOL....now Dean is a bad guy! You are a joke!

[pecwae]

123. You didn't know?

Dean and Kooch are spawns of the devil to some here.

[defendandprotect]

148. Right . . . and evidently, he mainly opposes the health care bill...

because Obama is president and Dean's racist!!!

Wow -- hard to believe that post!!!

[rvablue]

67. Seriously?!??!?! Been watching too much Tweety?

We're going to debase the opinion of a tried and true Democratic because some cable critters had a ball playing a disingeneous video over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Grow the fuck up.

Geeze, you're another DUer whose posts I've enjoyed for a quite a while....but now? What the hell is going on around here?

[zulchzulu]

80. Dean is siding with Republicans. What more do you need to know?

I watched Dean on KO and he actually thinks that we need to start over... Start over?

McConnell... Hatch... Boner... Newt... Hannity... Limbaugh... you name it... Dean is siding with Repiglicans on this!

Start over? WHAT THE FUCK?

Start over = Punt until 15 years from now

[LooseWilly]

93. Start over or give the fuck up. This Senate bill is shite. Kill it. Dean says so. I say so.

You're afraid of starting over? Fine... don't ever start over. Better nothing than this bill though.

And don't try to use some idiotic sports allusion you don't understand (on 4th down, if you're in no position to score, you punt. Unless you're feeling lucky/desperate enough to go for it... which almost always winds up worse than what would've happened had you punted. A 15 year punt isn't as bad as turning over the ball without the forcing of a shitload of extra yards for the other team to have to make up to get back to... where one ought to have punted from).

And the notion that killing a shitty bill is "siding with Republicans" is disingenuous. They are the ones trying to kill any bill... killing this bill is an admission that "No Bill" is better than a "Joe Bill".

Are you saying that you're position is to "side with Lieberman, against the Republicans"? Can you actually say that out loud, with a straight face?

I don't think I could...

:+

[defendandprotect]

149. Republicans don't want any health care reform . . . what does that have to do with

a lousey corporate bill?

$600/$800 billion to health care/pharm corporations???!!!

[Mithreal]

101. Eye opening, really

[Justitia]

69. FFS, the man is trying to tell you the fucking truth & you bring up bullshit from 2004?

Willfully obtuse.

[zulchzulu]

77. What I saw from Dean was indeed a foolish scream hellbent on being seen as...

...historically stupid.

Listen. I like Howard Dean. I've met him and videotaped him.

I also am not an automaton.

If I think Dean is off the mark and is making a fool of himself without fully understanding the full extent of what he is saying exponentially, then so be it.

Dean calling for killing the bill is equal (to me) as the same claptrap that Dick Armey wanked out of his cakehole at the Teabagger rally today in DC.

They both said the same thing and would essentially have to agree that they both want healthcare reform to die.

You need to just see what people say and see the consequences of their actions.

[Justitia]

89. You equate Howard Dean to Dick Armey. You have ZERO credibility. Goodbye.

[Mithreal]

102. Sloppy thinking, you've mastered it. Congratulations.

[ima_sinnic]

159. I don't know what happened to you

but I'm thinking of putting you on Ignore

to say that Howard Dean "wants healthcare reform to die" marks you as ignorant, misinformed, and just plain stupid, so why should I waste my time reading your blatherings?

[cali]

96. pathtic and sick little comment, honey.

I'm hoping that a couple of other Vermonters- in the Senate- will skewer this fuckwad legislation. And if it hurts President Obama, he has no one to blame but himself.

[Jefferson23]

158. Exactly!

[Divine Discontent]

107. how low.... absolutely disgustingly LOW... you've reached the bottom of the barrel.

CONGRATS!
:party:

[freddie mertz]

146. Well at least we know where YOU stand.

Parroting the GOP meme against Howard Dean.

As the Obama ship collides with the iceberg, I hope you enjoy the swim.

[Mass]

62. And this is new? How does this differ from what is in the bill presented by Reid.

The Senate bill was bad from the beginning. There were never enough votes to support the Medicare expansion, given Nelson and Conrad were also against it. And the cost controls were never there.

So, today is no different than yesterday. The bill was bad, is still bad. The reasons to want to get this bill passed are the same than yesterday, and the reasons to think it is a bad bill are the same as yesterday.

The only change is that some people thought that having the words "public option" in the bill was somehow look like a political win. Sad, but true.

I am extremely unhappy about this bill, but I have seen too many people being bipolar about it, and deciding it was worth passing/not worth passing, because of a few words, rather than what is or is not in the bill. It seems it continues.

(Note, I do not disagree with Dean's points. It is just that all these problems were there last week, when he was supporting the bill. The only thing is that happened is that they finally pulled the plug on a totally useless and very limited public option. Not sure it is worth the excitement. May be the indignation should have been that no measure would be taken to control premiums, for example).

[rvablue]

68. Maybe he was holding out hope, as was I. n/t

[janx]

71. Yes. This is a passion of his.

And he's the first person I've heard explain it succinctly.

[Mithreal]

103. The bill is what 2074 give or take pages long?

Maybe it just took time to critically read the bill and get advice on what it actually meant?

[slipslidingaway]

86. Agreed - thanks n/t

[Mithreal]

105. In one of Dean's interviews, this past week,

he warned Dems about not jerking him and others around again, I'm paraphrasing, and he expressed support of the bill, true. The PO that was pulled was supposed to be replaced by medicare at 55 buy-in. You say,"The only thing is that happened..." but that statement is false.

[jberryhill]

65. +1

[avaistheone1]

92. k&r

[budkin]

81. I would vote Dean over Obama in a heartbeat

[vaberella]

82. You do realize this is Congress and not President Obama right?! I'm tired of this crap. nt

[Yuugal]

85. Congress promised us a seat at the table?

Congress cut a deal with big pharma in the back room?

[Mithreal]

106. Are you ignoring or just immune to the rebuttal of this statement?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

187. The poster was a serious -

O booster from day one here.

The Dream dies hardest for them. :(

[Liberty Belle]

112. Wrong. Much as I've supported Obama, he should have taken a strong stance

and told Congress that a single-payer system was what we needed from day one. A public option may have been okay in the end as a compromise, but Obama made the mistake of starting by asking for what he wanted in the end, and got much less. he should also be visiting home states of Senators like Lieberman who are selling their souls for insurance money, speaking out, and giving them a good public shaming. Behind closed doors he should be telling them he won't sign any of their bills or campaign for them in their districts. Presidents DO have power to wield, and Obama has not used his in this instance.

[flyarm]

225. Obama couldn't say "single-payer system was what we needed from day one" because from day one he cut

a deal with big Pharma and the Insurance big boys and the hospital conglomerate boys..now Congress is stuck doing the evil bidding of keeping Obama's promises to the corporations!

They are all corporate whores..we men nothing..we are not cutting big fucking checks to the Obama camp like the corporate boys in the medical field!

[freddie mertz]

143. No, it is the president. He is the leader of the party.

HCR in the form it took was HIS policy.

and he failed to stick to his guns, caved before the "Debate" ever got going in a hopeless, naive effort to attract Republican support.

They didn't listen, but his old "mentor," Stinky Joe, was right there, demanding the removal of the public option and other elements opf real reform which the president had already signaled his willingness to bargain away.

This is Obama's mess, and the end of his promise to America (at least for now).

We are on our own again.

[janet118]

150. Obama is what I feared he was . . .

another Democratic wimp, afraid to use his "political capital" to fight for the middle class. When the going gets tough, Obama sides up with big money, big corporations and the legislators who are owned by them.

I remember way back, in the beginning of the health care "fight," I was asked to go door to door by the Obama for America (Dean rip-off) organization. They wanted me to get people to sign on to Obama's health care plan. I asked, "What is Obama's health care plan?" Silence. He refused to take any stand whatsoever and sold us down the river to the likes of Snowe, Lieberman, Backus, Lincoln and the rest of the bought and paid-for corporate whores. He let them throw out single-payer, expanded Medicare, any public option, insurance industry regulation, and lowering the costs of prescription drugs without out a whimper. Now he is willing to go along with a bill that mandates high priced, unaffordable, private health insurance without any regulation and taxes the middle class for work-based plans. We have been had. Obama wants to play nice with the powerful and tells us progressives to shut up and take our "medicine." We are painted as "left wing extremists" and those who are shilling for insurance and big pharma are "moderates." Obama is forgetting who brought him to this dance.

I had hope for Obama. I worked hard for his election. I am losing my religion.

[flyarm]

226. ohh he used his "political capital" to sell us out with his secret deals..the big boys are getting

exactly what Obama promised them!

[dionysus]

151. don't bother. they know this.

:hi:

[ima_sinnic]

152. sorry, that meme doesn't cut it any more

The president can introduce legislation, and he or she has all kinds of leverage to use to guide its passage. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was originally introduced by President Kennedy, first in a speech, then, a week later, as an actual bill that he sent to Congress. He was assassinated shortly thereafter. The bill went through some transformations, but there were certain provisions that were untouchable, and Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, did not rest until he had the votes firmly in place to make it pass. He went one-on-one with congresspeople, and he let them know the consequences of not playing ball. The bill survived a 50-day filibuster and opposition easily equal to the moron teabaggers, if not more fierce, with southern politicians passing out axe handles for beating black people and unparalleled hatred manifested everywhere in the south, with high-pressure hoses used on black demonstrators. As he signed the bill, Johnson remarked, in effect, that "the Democrats had lost the South for a generation."

If it had been Obama, the hate mongers would have been "given a seat at the table," and the bill would have been watered down to nothing--certainly the potential for forced segregation would have been weeded out, early on--so their poor widdle feelings wouldn't be hurt. He would be more concerned with "not alienating the southern voters" than getting good legislation passed. I assume that he would not have leaned on anybody, and I think the final bill would have been some extended "separate but equal" gimmick. Ironically, the 1964 Civil Rights Act would not happen under Obama, afaic.

[jberryhill]

153. Yeah.. That's why in his statement yesterday Obama pushed for public option NOT

[tekisui]

167. Are you suggesting Obama is powerless?

[sam sarrha]

207. it is the Senate that F'd everything up..

[Honeycombe8]

87. Me, too. And I was supporting a weak HCR bill already. But this bill is harmful. nt

[slinkerwink]

94. Dean is right on this issue

[Zavulon]

97. I trust him, too.

This bill sucks, and will be incredibly damaging to our party in the long run. If it passes, Obama should veto it. If he doesn't, I stay in and watch some reruns the next time Election Day is upon us.

[DCBob]

108. I suspect Dean will eventually succumb to political reality and support the bill..

Just about every non-Republican has now.

[Liberty Belle]

111. I agree 100%. This is a cave-in to insurance industry interests.

Dean was not a single-payer advocate, he was a pragmatist who believed a public option would work. For him to abandon support of the bill speaks volumes. I will be calling my Senators tomorrow and urging them to kill this bill and speak out on the critical need for real reform, not a sell-out to the insurance industry.

[OneGrassRoot]

120. I saw him on GMA this morning....

the mandate aspect seemed to be of most concern to him, as it is for me and many others.

We understand mandates are what make the system work (corrupt though it still is), yet we no longer have the carrot of the public option for the mandate "stick."

Dean seems to understand that average Americans simply CANNOT afford a mandate, even as low as $100/month though it is likely to be much higher, especially to simply line the pockets of a continuing corrupt system that is private insurance.

If they would do away with mandates, or give us back the carrot, I'm okay with it. Mandates are a pure negative (for many of us who currently are uninsured and cannot afford premiums)and thus much worse than what we currently have.

Perhaps that is one of the things that can be rectified in the interim between passage and implementation.

[Imagevision]

113. Obama seems to be all talk and no action and as we all know - actions do speak louder then words...

[Enthusiast]

115. I certainly trust Dean more than Obama

at this point.

[JNelson6563]

118. I stand with Howard Dean.

Again. Still.

[polichick]

122. So the WH sees Dean as the enemy this morning, not Lieberman...

This according to Morning Joe.

No surprise - the WH gets more clueless every day.

[Vinca]

137. It was stunning that Howard Dean would so forcefully and suddenly

be totally opposed to the bill. He had been cheerleading long past the time the bill might have been described as "good." He's exactly right. Even the pre-existing condition part of the thing allows big insurance to gouge sick people. Kill the bill.

[defendandprotect]

142. Wasn't it "stunning" how "forcefully and suddendly" Public Option and Medicare

disappeared ... ?????

Almost as if by magic . . . ??

Wasn't Pelosi out there only two months ago assuring us that Public Option would

be in the bill???

[SharonAnn]

172. No, he repeatedly said that if there were only mandates and no publifc option, he be against it.

He said it would just be an uncontrolled giveaway to the insuran3e companies.

He said this on many venues, over the past 6 months. He's always said this.

This is nothing new for Howard Dean, so when I heard the Medicare option was pulled, I was waiting to see if Howard Dean would be true to his revious statements. And I found that he is.

If the only benefits go to the insurance companies, then it's not a health care bill. It's an insurance company profit improvement plan.

[Zodiak]

205. I think the fact that Dean remained supportive for so long

stems from the fact that he is ultimately a good little soldier for the Democrats. He was head of the DNC, after all.

But he now knows what all progressives now know...he was used when he came out for the public option (allowing the Dems to cajole liberals into looking "not reasonable" for asking for single payer"), and is now being used as toilet paper to wipe the ass of big corporations for sell-out Democrats to remain in power.

Being a good soldier got Dean exactly nothing but the continuing enmity of the White House.

It got us progressives the same.

I'm not sure Dean or the grassroots progressives ever intend to be good soldiers again. The Democrats have simply went to that well so many times, it has dried up, along with their fucking "powder".

[pissedoff01]

145. Howard Dean has my trust

[abelenkpe]

164. Please write to your reps.

Call, fax, write...everyday.

We can still voice our concerns. Don't give up. Standing up for real reform is only more important now. Please write.

[paparush]

169. Billions to kill strangers in foreign lands. Zip to save lives here at home.

I voted for Obama for LEADERSHIP. C'mon..its the Chicago way. I expected him to bring a gun to the knife fight. Now, I'm realizing that he's owned, just like nearly every other national politician is owned

[dpbrown]

173. No cost controls, no public option, no competition. This bill blows.

Spike it now. It's worse than nothing.

[kestrel91316]

175. I trust the good Doctor Dean on this one.

SINGLE. PAYER. NOW.

MEDICAL CARE FOR ALL. NOW.

[BrklynLiberal]

176. This has been such a disappointing experience.

If our hopes had not been so high........the crash would not hurt so much.:(

[colsohlibgal]

184. He's 100% Right

We are being hosed big time. Obama's deal with Big Pharma has come back to bite us too, the bill to allow importation of prescription drugs was rejected by the senate and not so much along party lines, lots of democrats voted against allowing it, they were good little soldiers for Rahm/Barack. It's nauseating.

The bill as proposed now is just a government approved funneling of cash to insurance companies. The hundreds of dollars they spent to beat any real reform down has been money well spent, they found enough political whores willing to do their bidding.

[emilyg]

189. kick

[Goldstein1984]

190. I think I see a 2012

progressive presidential candidate taking shape.

[ArcticFox]

193. Believe it, brother

This bill is bad for americans, good for insurance companies and their investors. As hard as they are to fight now, it will only become harder if this bill passes.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

196. I'm so sorry for all of you.

I haven't been here very long, but DU is such a treasure of good, dedicated people that have given so much of themselves
for the Democratic Party. You deserve so much better. This is really a travesty and I feel for all of us.

[sam sarrha]

209. i'm re-Registering as Independent. i cant take this Bullshit anymore, i will vote for the Democratic

Party but i don't want be associated with the crap i saw go down last couple days.. i'll campaign for for the democrats ..they at least say they want to help people.. jury is still out on that one.

the bottom 80% only possesses 7% of the wealth, and process 74% of all the Debt... before the last crash.

opposition to Fascists in both party's need to end Corporate Campaign Contributions to start

i am sick to my stomach.. actually nauseated all this last week, i cant watch TV anymore.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

213. feeling the same way. feels like election night 04.

your post summed up my feelings. ive been typing something then erasing it over and over. Haven't posted to DU in ages, thought i'd swing by and say hi to everybody in this most dark hour. A real betrayal of the American people has happened. hoping for a veto, but its not looking good.

[David Zephyr]

197. #198 Rec from me.

Yep.

[KnarfMit]

201. Nothing new under the sun

Surely you're not ALL taken aback by the fact that Democrats are bought and sold on the same market as Republicans?



...Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions - everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses.

(Juvenal, Satire 10.77-81)

[Hubert Flottz]

206. Dean is the only powerful democratic voice that tells the truth...

about this bill/calamity.

[Geek_Girl]

208. Dean's right I just wish he had seen what was going on sooner and spoke up sooner

I think everyone was giving Obama and the Democratic Senators the benefit of the doubt.

Now can we purge the DLC out of our party? Every time I bring this up I get flamed for not being a loyal dem.

[humbled_opinion]

212. I have been saying it for weeks

This bill is taking the shape of something I would expect from Republicans and yet not a single one is supporting it. Itsn't that Odd? How did that happen? A Congress full of Democrats and they caved on the most progressive pieces of this legislation immediately. Sorry but I cannot support mandates to purchase insurance from fat cat insurance industries that are already getting my tax dollars in subsidies and bail outs ...

ENOUGH... alreay..

and to see Obama cave so easily to Liberman made me sick. I guess articulate and inelligent people can also sorely lack leadership...

Who Figured? Back to the drawing Board.

KILL THE BILL.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

215. don't read this as a cave-in to Lieberman.

there is some duplicity going on. Don't mistake this as a lack of leadership, because that pre-supposes that Obama, Reid, and some other key players actually intended this thing to be substantive in the first place.

Your over-arching point is spot-on though. After all of the caving in (I call it declawing, neutering, de-toothing, then drawing-and-quartering) the Republicans STILL don't like it. I'm sorry but that's just sinking the knife in. To accept that - as Reid and Obama seem to be doing - is an insult to the people who put them there. Its humiliation is what it is.

[humbled_opinion]

214. It Seems That

Obama would rather have anything pass then the right thing pass. That is shameful and anti-Democratic on its face. He should have more conviction to stand up for what he believes and not take this crap from Congress.

I thought thats who I voted for, apparently I was duped.

[Crunchy Frog]

220. No Democratic votes for me next time. This is a deal breaker.

[SkyDaddy7]

221. Dr. Dean has the luxury of being able to say what he wants...

Actually passing a bill in congress is a completely different story...If you don't have the votes how can Obama change that fact? Do folks really think Obama is a god who can simply snap his fingers and produce a bill all progressives would love? The sad fact is there are not enough votes...So, why blame Obama?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

238. yep. and Obama has the bully pulpit and veto power.

but he didnt use his bully pulpit and it doesn't look like he's going to use his veto power.

You can't make a chicken sandwich out of chicken shit.

[SkyDaddy7]

239. You call it chicken shit because...

It is not a full gov take over...Or even a public option? Yes, we would like one or the other but the fact remains there are not the votes, PERIOD! Obama was not stupid he knows the make-up of congress and where he would run into trouble and that is why single payer was not even considered. If they would have started with single payer the debate over reform would have ended months ago. Just like it did in the 90's.

Regardless of what the hype is this bill will be better than nothing at all...No, it is not what most of us wanted but to say Obama should just veto it and forget about reform is just absurd!

If he veto's the bill reform is dead. Obama does not have the option of simply quiting he has to get what he can. There is serious insurance reform in this bill. It does not go near as far as it should but it is better than nothing.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

244. oh i get it now

all they had to do was formulate a Xmas present to the insurance companies and then call it reform. It was a problem with framing all along.

There's a reason why substantial healthcare reform never happened in this country, it's because in order to be called reform certain structural changes in the system had to be made. If Obama didn't have the political will to take on that challenge, he shouldn't have said otherwise.

Or he could have signaled very early on that he would veto any healthcare legislation that didn't include the public option (which the majority of citizens support and were expecting). Would it have passed? Very probably not, but the Republicans would have to go back to their districts with a sign hovering above their heads that said - THE ONES THAT KILLED HEALTHCARE REFORM TO ENRICH THEMSELVES WITH INSURANCE INDUSTRY MONEY.

Instead Obama prioritized getting something, anything, on his desk. And this is where we are.

And look what happened! Democrats are seen as spineless, Obama is in a worse position losing progressives in droves - with no gains in moderates or the right, the insurance companies are made more powerful, and the Republicans still oppose it! HAHAHAHAH! ITS AN ENTIRE LOSS! It is the polar opposite of the desired result - and it occurred with Obama at the helm and a Democratic majority. Game-set-match.

So, yeah, its chicken shit put in a patty and Obama's about to wrap it up and expect us to thank him.

[Third Doctor]

228. Scrap the bill

Forcing 30 million people to buy healthinsurance without a public option or any ways to hold down the cost is wrong. Mandating and cost controls should have been hand in hand but the cost control part has been thrown out. The dem part ran on a progressive platform but much of what we have been seeing is watered down conservative crap. I don't know what to say about Obama right now. We can't just cope with anything bullshit bill.

[tbyg52]

229. >>I trusted President Obama to do the right thing since he was elected.

I didn't; I just hoped. I'm flat out of hope now.

[Bonhomme Richard]

232. I just sent a nasty email to the whitehouse. Don't piss on....

my leg and tell me it's raining.

[Teaser]

248. Can I just

piss on your leg then, and not talk to you?

Best of both worlds.

[workinclasszero]

243. Blue dogs and the DLC are the shadow government

running the show, hand in hand with Michelle Bachman, Rush Limbaugh, Joe Lieberman, etc.

Don't you get it?

Profits over everything people! I got mine, F**K you!

Its the true American religion, God help us all!

[Odin2005]

247. I cam to the exact same conclusion.