"Pssst. This Isn't Over." (HCR)

[Clio the Leo]

Pssst. This Isn't Over.
Jonathan Cohn
December 15, 2009 | 5:42 pm

Via Politico, here's what Nebraska Senator Ben Nelson said as he left a White House meeting with the rest of the Democratic caucus a little while ago:

I’m not on the bill. I have spoken with the president and he knows they are not wrapped up today. I think everybody understands they are not wrapped up today and that impression will not be given.

A lot of people are treating today as the end of the debate, for better or worse, now that the Democrats have shelved the public option and Joe Lieberman appears ready to support the Senate bill. But that's only because everybody (pro- and anti-reform) has focused too much on the public option. On Capitol Hill, operatives and staff have said all along that Nelson, not Lieberman, would be the most difficult member of the caucus to win over. And his primary focus is abortion, although he has other concerns, as well.

One interesting question is how Republicans Olympia Snowe and, maybe, Susan Collins fit into this picture. She was unhappy with the Medicare buy-in plan, saying she opposed the idea in principle and didn't appreciat the rush to concoct a compromise. But that effort is now over. The bill that remains looks remarkably like the one that passed the Finance Committee. As you may recall, Snowe voted for that bill.

The great advantage of recruiting Snowe is that she supports abortion rights. Remember, she joined the majority of Democrats in voting against Nelson's amendment that would have introduced language prohibiting the coverage of abortion services within the new insurance exchanges. (Collins did, too.) That would actually produce a bill more liberal than the House alternative, at least on this one issue, with the differences to be settled in conference.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-treatment/pssst-isnt-over

[rockymountaindem]

1. As of today I have given up hope on this

I only hope that Obama will continue to improve our foreign policy, because that is where he has shown some actual results in terms of getting China and Iran more on board with our overall objectives, for example.

The Senate bill, one way or another, will represent a big embrace by our government of the failing private system. It will not proffer any new ideas such as a public option which could possibly be expanded into something more meaningful later. It does not extend Medicare coverage as a precedent to expanding it gradually to be available to all. All it does is shovel hundreds of billions of dollars to the same private insurance firms which have been providing us crappy service for decades, and lean on people who make more than 66k to make up the difference out of their own pockets on some arbitrarily-agreed basis for what constitutes a "reasonable" amount of money to spend on health insurance.

Basically what you are saying is that because they have made the Senate bill so bad that even Snowe will vote for it (the Baucus bill, which has been euphemistically called the "finance bill" in this piece). However, because she's on our side re: abortion, we can live with it even though it's still a horrible idea for all the other reasons. Not buying it.

[Clio the Leo]

2. Not at all what I'm saying....

.... but the article is clear enough. If your mindset clouds your perception of it, that's not something I can debate you away from.

[rockymountaindem]

4. Sure you could try and debate me away from it. Refute what I said.

I maintain that the article you posted (I read the entire thing) essentially says that we have come so far backwards toward the Baucus bill that Snowe may vote for it. So we're making a trade here. We don't have to tangle with Nelson over abortion if that happens, but we can also say goodbye to a public option (as if we hadn't already), Medicare expansion (sooo last-week) and adopt a bill that does all sorts of bad things in terms of shoveling billions and billions toward private insurance in the form of subsidies with no cost controls of any kind. Tell me what I'm missing.

[Clio the Leo]

6. You'll forgive me if I think that a possible vote by Snowe....

.... could result in a weakened or non existant Stupak amendment in the long run.

And I know, you cant see the benefit of that because you feel the entire bill sucks. On this we will never agree.

But thank you for kicking my thread anyway.

[rockymountaindem]

7. Why not debate me on the entire bill, then?

Make your case. I want to be convinced. Tell me why the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I wanted this all to go well. I support the House bill, because while it ain't perfect it at least has more pros than cons IMHO. I wanted all this stuff to pass way back in the summer when all we had to worry about were town-hall ranters. Just start with a couple of points, and I'll reply. That's how these things go. I'm willing to have a discussion with you, and I'm willing to accept the fact that we can respect each other afterward even if we don't agree.

Saying you refuse to debate me doesn't speak highly of your willingness to defend your case, or your respect for my open-mindedness. Hell, I was even enthusiastic about trading the public option for expanded Medicare (even though I'm only 23!) and I didn't mind the opt-out. I think I'm being quite reasonable here.

[Clio the Leo]

9. See, there's this feral cat I need to bathe......

... and I think that would be a more effective use of my time.

One thing you'll learn at some point after the age of 23 is that when a person's mind is made up its made up. You dont have to draw your sword at every windmill. Can I convince you this bill is worth passing? Or course not. lol, but I appreciate your invitation. Saying I refuse to debate you speaks more to the fact that in the 13 years I've been on this planet longer than you, I've fought in more rhetorical battles and seen the futility of them.

If you interpreted my post as an attempt to argue the point you were mistaken. It matters not to me if someone doesn't like this bill as long as their opinions are well informed. However, there are those of us who DO want it passed. The article provided a perspective I had not heard of on how to get Snowe's vote so I posted it more for their consideration than anyone else.

But if you have some other thoughts on the matter, you're welcomed to share them. Again, I ALWAYS appreciate someone kicking my threads up, no matter what they're saying. ;)

[IndianaGreen]

3. and it will tax hard won union health benefits as 'Cadillac plans'

a total FUBAR

[LooseWilly]

5. Don't forget that it leans on everyone with a job that provides no benefits to buy into...

private insurance, at our own cost, apparently to help prevent costs for corporations that offer benefits to their employees from getting out of control (as if it is harder for those corporations to cover the increases in HMO pricing than it is for those of use working jobs that offer no benefits...).

I guess I'll have to become sick just to get my extorted-money's worth?... (And the Obama clips clearly show that he has no concept of what those of us who've already long since given up trying to keep up with HMO fee progression schedules are experiencing...)

[quakerboy]

8. So they are going to make it even worse before they are done?

What else is Ben Nelson planning to suck out of the bill before supporting it?

[Clio the Leo]

10. No....

.... if they get Snowe's vote (theoretically, acording to this theory) then Nelson's attempt to include anti-abortion language would have failed.

[quakerboy]

11. But what will they give up to get Snowe?

That seems to be the game. Trade one thing for another, and then Lieberman forces them to take out whatever they traded for.

[Clio the Leo]

15. That's where the abortion thing comes in.....

.... if Nelson is offering his vote only at the price of passing an abortion amendment, perhaps Snowe will offer her vote INSTEAD if given the chance to weaken Stupak. At least that's what the article is speculating.

I also have a theory that the PO may reappear in coference as a trigger ..... since the rumor has it that is what the WH wanted all along. But I admit I have no basis for that other than my own guy.

Should be interesting.

[niceypoo]

12. It isn't over until there's nothing left

...and then they vote on it.

[Honeycombe8]

13. It's over, it's over. The Democrats lost big time. It's over. Finit. Caput. The End. nt

[uponit7771]

16. ...hate facts much?

[lamp_shade]

14. K&R

[Cha]

17. I didn't think so..but,

for some..the world as they knew it ended last night.

It was very melodramatic and hysterical like you'd expect with news like that.

[Cha]

18. Kick just for a reminder.