Labor is going to lose this fight...And we have only ourselves to blame

[Armstead]

The numbers are inevitable in Wisconsin. At some point there will be a vote. And the Republicans have the numbers to ram this through.

That will happen.

The bigger issue is WHY this has happened. Why have the Dems lost so many of the working class?

Because the Republicans fight. The GOP are not afraid of their own shadow. They have sold too many middle class people a crock of shit -- and they bought it because our side does not do a goddam thing to counter that.

We play Hamlet and muse and come up with all kinds of excuses as to why we CAN'T do anything or take any stands.....

So we are about to lose another one. And we will keep losing because we rationalize instead of taking clear stands when it matters.

[Larkspur]

1. As long as the WI 14 stay out of WI, the Repukes won't win on this union-busting issue

They are already losing the PR battle.

[Armstead]

3. The 14 are doing a great job -- But they can't stay away forever

The PR battle? the GOP lost that in 2008.

But they came back because -- while they have relentlessly pushing their agenda -- we have been wussing around for the last two years and send a lot of muddled messages.

[provis99]

4. they don't care that they are losing the PR battle.

and staying out of the state is only a temporary tactic for the senators; they will eventually have to go back, or the government will cease functioning through lack of budgetary appropriations,and all those state employees will cease getting paid altogether.

[olegramps]

46. The PR battle was lost years ago.

The voice if the working middle class is like a whisper in the wind against a juggernaut of corporate propaganda. Unfortunately, the working class has been propagandized to the extent that they resemble the brain dead citizens of Orwell's 1984. I never thought that I would actually see a society as close to Orwell's 1984 zombies.

The working class bought the oligarchs' propaganda and deserted the unions that created the Middle Class signing their own death warrant. I see nothing to reverse the present course of events until the people are once again reduced to absolute destitution. At this stage of the developments I have to conclude that the corporate oligarchs have won the battle. The manufacturing jobs have been outsourced, pensions cut and health insurance canceled. It would take a dramatic revolution to reverse the situation. I doubt that I will live to see it, but it could result in a confrontation as bloody as the French Revolution when the masses as driven to desperation and may very well sweep throughout the world when expoited workers rise up.

[Lastactiongyro]

103. Thats a problem? Everything points back at Repukes let

things get worse. It's a no win situation for Repuukes. It won't be forgotten we are in a Civil War now. It just hasn't gotten to bullets yet.

[Sherman A1]

2. And we should do what?

You have an interesting summation, however do you have any solutions?

[provis99]

5. I don't think there are any solutions.

Welcome to the Brave New World.

[Armstead]

Get our damn leaders to actually take a stand and LEAD

This one is a no brainer. Itvis not an ambiguous situation with a lot of "nuances"...any Democrat who is a Democrat should be out front and speaking The numbers are inevitable. At some point there wiu be a vote. And the Republicans have the numbers to ram this through.

That will happen.

The bigger issue is WHY this has happened. Why have the Dems lost so many of the working class?

Because the Republicans fight. The GOP are not afraid of their own shadow. They have sold too many middle class people a crock of shit -- and they bought it because our side does not do a goddam thing to counter that.

We play Hamlet and muse and come up with all kinds of excuses as to why we CAN'T do anything or take any stands.....

So we are about to lose another one. And we will keep losing because we rationalize instead of taking clear stands when it matters. as relentlessly asvthe GOP are doing.

BE the party that stands up for the and basic rights of workers.Unified as a political party.

This is not an ambiguous situation. Either one is for the workers or the oligarchs.

This is not the time for waffling or silence from Democratic leaders. It is not the time to paralyze ourselves with rationalizations about keeping our powder dry.

[mahina]

11. You mean like Russ Feingold?

I donated to his campaign and was so horrified that he lost. I gave this time and several prior races, which was really tough to do, but it was important enough for me to economize so that I could send him some cash. From way over here in Hawaii.

We should be seeing huge majorities, and we aren't, because the 'news' isn't, and the newspapers aren't, and the people are selfish and narcotized and ...did I already say selfish?

I met some people from Wisconsin today. They seemed really nice and happy to be here in the islands. After some discussion, they told me that the unions...oh never mind, just suffice it to say, they are buying the anti-union line.

We speak different languages. We have different values and different assumptions. I think, good for the teachers, they will educate our kids, and improve our future. Good for them!! Good for the firemen, cops, all of them.

The other guys think, hey, that's my money!

We need to find a way to appeal to self interest, because most people can't connect the dots between improving the lives of others and improving their own lives.

It's late, please forgive me if I'm wandering off topic but I am with you, I ask myself these exact questions all the time.

aloha.

[treestar]

80. Why is LEAD always in capital letters?

This is a cop out. Just demanding that the elected person do whatever you want and say whatever you want. You believe they are not forceful enough on an issue, but they cannot deal with just one issue and cannot pattern their speech after what each of us individually wants them to say. If we want it said a certain way, we have to do it ourselves.

Nothing stops us from forming groups and campaigning for any particular issue. Just sitting back and expecting other to do it is lazy.

[Armstead]

83. People sorta thought they were doing that in 2008

And campaigning on an issue doesn't bring results if the politicians who come up with laws and policies support them and follow through.

(I will admit I have a habit of putting words into capital letters sometimes. It's how i get adamant in print.)

[Armstead]

6. Self delete -- posted twice

[bigdarryl]

7. I predict this will go to the courts and be OVERTURNED!! before 2012 election

[Armstead]

27. I hope it gets overturned....But in the meantime, our national leaders should be...

standing shoulder to shoulder fighting it

[guruoo]

97. If they did, it would undermine the growing grassroots labor movement

It's people vs 'big bad government'.
Our Democratic leaders in government should chill for now, let the grassroots to take the lead, and
allow the Republicans to provide the public face to the government villan.

[Freddie Stubbs]

42. Can you please elaborate on what legal basis it would be overturned?

[Kingofalldems]

60. Whose side are you on?

Oh wait, nevermind.

[Freddie Stubbs]

63. The Democratic side, oh course

[dsc]

92. actually it is a valid question

clearly federal law doesn't forbid bans on collective bargaining since North Carolina bans it. Unless Wisconsin's constitution forbids a ban on collective bargaining, I don't see any way this gets overturned in court.

[Tatiana]

8. The wingnuts get elected and do what their constituents elected them to do.

We elect our people and they find numerous excuses as to why they can't get done (HCR w/ public option, EFCA, tax cuts for middle and lower class only, etc.) what we elected them to do. The other side stands firm, turning in a record number of filibusters, while our mantra is "compromise" and "negotiate."

It's hard to compromise and negotiate with Republicans when they have no intent to do so in good faith. As Gov. "Hosni" Walker has stated to the faux Koch brother, he'll "listen" but he's not willing to negotiate. He's just willing to lie to the WI Senate Dems in order to achieve his goal of busting Wisconsin's unions.

I'm going to disagree with you slightly... I think this is a fight we can win. But it's a fight that we the people will have to take on ourselves. Our national leaders are not going to help and I think the best we can hope for is for them to just get out of our way. If WI workers win this fight, maybe it will help revise the current thinking in the Democratic party... maybe national Dems will realize that they probably need to start fearing their base like the Republicans do.

[QC]

23. ^ This is the answer. n/t

[Myrina]

33. +100

:applause:

[Armstead]

39. Great Response -- One reply though...Maybe the workers can somehow prevail in this one BUT

Seems to me the labor side of this needs the support of a national political party, as a national issue.

[Tatiana]

45. Let's flip that around....

What if the labor side of this became a real political threat nationally?

As in, "hey, Democrats, you better stand firm with the poor and working class citizens or else we will run <*insert really popular local candidate that fights for working class people*> against you." They tried to do it with Blanche Lincoln. That was just step one. In order to really gain the attention of national Dems, labor has to sustain the effort -- that is, we have to continue to throw our support (both financially and in terms of boots on the ground) behind more progressive candidates in Democratic primaries.

We don't need Howard Dean as DNC chair to continue a people's movement of the 50-state strategy. Every poor and working class citizen can organize behind candidates who are truly fighting for them. I think the ads the AFL-CIO are running in Wisconsin are spot-on and we need to be doing that type of thing across the country.

The only way we're going to see any change in this country is if we start doing the heavy lifting ourselves. For the most part, our national leaders are not getting the job done.

[GinaMaria]

81. Maybe we all need to unite

and join one union. How you like our collective bargaining now? That would be the power we the people have been lacking for so long. Can we call it FU?

[somone]

75. Indeed!

[golfguru]

99. You speak the truth n/t

[xchrom]

9. I can't make the dem leadership do anything.

The dem leadership would have to abandon it's
Current neoliberal ideas and return to t. Roosevelt , FDR & LBJ to
Get to a place where they have strong positions..

[Tansy_Gold]

17. "Leadership is a matter of action, not position."

Fortune cookie fortune I got about a year ago.

Obama is in the position to do something, but he doesn't seem able to actually act. Words seem to mean nothing to him. Putting on the comfortable shoes and getting on the picket line is a great campaign phrase, but he appears to believe that once uttered, a promise is finished. There's no follow-through, no commitment, no.. . . action.

It's as if he really doesn't give a flying fuck about any of us, only about the uber-wealthy.

It's as if he doesn't have a clue how to be president. He has the DOJ defending DOMA for two years, then all of a sudden says, "Oh, wait, maybe part of that is unconstitutional." Wasn't it just as unconstitutional in 2008 when you were elected or 2009 when you took office? How come it took you two fuckin' years to figure this out, Mr. Constitutional Lawyer?

Get out of your freakin' bubble. Listen to the people whose votes elected you, not the people whose fat donations funded your campaign. You said you'd rather be a good one-term president than a mediocre two-term one, but sir, you are on your way to being neither. You're looking more and more like a lousy, ineffective, out-of-touch and easily defeated one term do-nothing.


Tansy Gold, who is very sad to have to write the above.

[xchrom]

18. +1

[jtuck004]

21. +1! eom

[dionysus]

26. yeah, i'm sure it broke your heart .

:eyes:

[Tansy_Gold]

41. Seriously, I don't like writing this shit

I'd much rather praise someone, anyone, who stands up for working people, who stands up for democracy, who stands up for fairness and decency and justice, with actions and not just lip service. Believe it or not -- and I'm sure you don't -- I'd happily spend my days making jewelry and writing romance novels and playing with my dogs. The problem is that I don't live in a rose-colored-glasses world and I know that if I/we just sit back in denial, then the world is gonna get a whole lot worse for my kids and grandkids.

I DON'T LIKE WRITING THIS SHIT. But writing is what I do better than just about anything else, so I'm going to continue to do it.



TG, TT

[louslobbs]

73. +1000 to you Tansy

Speaking truth to power no matter the subject or their party membership. I agree with every word you wrote in your comment. I am like you, not a partisan and I call it as I see it no matter who the person is that I feel is out of integrity. Words do matter, and if you are not your word, than what are you? Thank you again for your post, I know how hard it is to write about someone you want to like and believe in, in a bad light, not based on ideology, but based on their actions or inaction as you see it.
Lou

[Kablooie]

10. Republicans create a monolithic block with a single goal. Can't beat that.

Democrats squabble about details and are all over the map.

There is no way Dems will ever make big wins over the Republicans unless they can pull together like the GOP has done.

Leaders make decisions and go with them. It doesn't really matter if they are right or wrong. The simple fact that they are firm inspires people to follow them.
It's not about logic. It's about emotion.

As long as the Republican platform doesn't split into a myriad of factions, they will continue to win and remake America in their own image.

[polichick]

12. We have our BOUGHT LEADERS to thank - I'm not blaming Dems who...

...have been activists for years and have done everything we can do to elect good Dems and hold them accountable.

This party is truly fucked when the prez refuses to boldly stand with labor.

(Did you see Big Ed go after Obama on his show last night? He was right.)

[Armstead]

30. I should amend it and make clear I am not saying ALL of us...

Yes there are a lot of grass roots activists (and other supportive liberals and progressives) and even many Democratic leaders who should not be included in my sweeping generalization

[polichick]

50. imo we're getting to the time when our party has to decide what it actually stands for...

Just having a D behind the name does not a Democrat make.

[rasputin1952]

13. Not necessarily...

If the good people of WI start recall petitions on the 8 R's that can be recalled because they have more than a year in, I'm pretty sure they would get the required # of signatures for a recall to be started. Just the threat of recall for 8 pinheads should be enough to get at least a few of them to sit back and take notice.

Walker will most likely be recalled in January, after he has his year in, he will not be re-elected again in any case. He's proven himself to be completely inept at governing, except to the most zealous Teabaggers/R's, and they do not have the #'s to sustain him.

It's all about time and effort on the side of the good people of WI, they can act in some circumstances, have to wait in others. Since Walker's idea of "compromise is, "We'll do it my way", no one should trust him as far as they could throw the Rock of Gibraltar.

There are options to get this thing squashed, it's a case of holding out first, getting rid of the clowns is a close second...it's up to the good people of WI, they can do this.

[Armstead]

31. You may be correct -- But this is a national issue at core, and they need some backup

[rasputin1952]

44. I think that as far as WH goes, they should support the protesters...

but not push to hard, support is fine, but one must remember that too much pressure can backfire; the MSM is not very friendly to the administration.

The best way to deal with this, is too ensure that the better people, (meaning those that work for a living and have a stake in this, Union or not), across the nation lay pressure on Walker and the others. Some states have already, (wisely), backed down. Walker is an idiot, he could have avoided all of this, but he thinks he has a "mandate", so he dug his heels in and is going to pay heavily for that. Others have seen the writing on the wall, and backed away.

The key is to get people, not necessarily the WH, into the fray. Some 79% think Walker is a complete asshole, (this figure will go up as this thing grinds on), and that is what will beat this idiot into a box. This is a people issue, a worker issue...Walker and his moronic buddies never realized that, and that is what will wind up crushing him.

Union and non-Union workers all over the country are making themselves known, the MSM has stuck w?WI, but this goes beyond that, everyone is threatened with severe cuts to pay and benefits if this even comes close to making it into law. WI is a template, we can use it to our advantage, or blow it...so far, things are going pretty well. These things take time and effort. The effort is there, now it's a case of time.

One thing is almost guaranteed, Walker will be recalled as soon as he is eligible, this man is a pariah, and I don't think the GOP will support him, he makes crap smell like roses. It's best to let him implode, that way, the GOP/Teabaggers/MSM have no one to blame but Walker...:D

[BobbyBoring]

71. There ya go!

That can and should be done. I think by now the citizens of Wisconsin have seen what this is all about.

There's always a way.

[Exilednight]

14. Parts of the Democratic party no longer care about labor. They

worry about getting the fat checks from corporations to fund their campaigns.

Obama is a prime example. Sure, Obama recieved more campaign contributions from small donors, but most of his money came from large corporate types.

[polichick]

15. True - and Obama probably thinks he'll get more indie votes if he...

...keeps his distance from labor. But still expects labor and principled Dems to vote for him since we have noplace else to go. This is the perfect moment for a populist primary challenge - if not, we're stuck with corporatists as far as the eye can see.

[karynnj]

76. That is complete BS

Obama did not take PAC money. The opensecrets type info that makes you think he got "corporate" money is because the money that he did get came from people - most of them working for companies. To its credit, open secrets does on some reports split PAC and individual donations - and many of us have posted them hundreds of times - and you very likely saw and ignored this. You do realize that a CWA union guy working for AT&T or Verizon, puts the EMPLOYER name on the form - and that money is included in the aggregate amount for those companies.

If you can't see a difference between Obama and Scott Walker, I am sorry for you.

PS It does not help when discredited charges are repeated.

[Exilednight]

86. Open Secrets also tells us that Obama took 76.5 million in bundled money from corporate elites.

Even though these donors direct more money to the candidates than anyone else, disclosure can be spotty, with Obama and McCain posting bundlers by ranges, indicated in this chart with the "max" and "min" columns, and with the top ranges being simply "$500,000 or more." Together, 536 elites have directed at least $75,750,000 to McCain, and 560 have gathered at least $76,500,000 for Obama.

Now tell me where I lied.

[Democat]

16. Don't worry, Kerry is a strong closer!

So they say.

[mdmc]

19. dems should stand up for the workers

just like the gop fights...

[sybylla]

20. You presume that when the goppies pass the bill, there's nothing we can do

And yet I can think of at least four things:
economic strike
general (possibly rolling) labor strikes
lawsuits
recall


You see, Walker's mistake is that he's taken away so much that unions are left in a position where they have nothing more to lose by shutting down the government and perhaps the state. Will there be PR consequences? Probably, but when you have nothing to lose, you play the cards in your hand.

Walker has also already lost lawsuits over his actions as Milwaukee County Executive.

Dems are gearing up to recall state senators

And when supporters of unions stop spending their money in businesses that supported these idiots, someone's going to cry uncle and it won't be the unions.

This is a huge game of chicken that won't stop simply because they figure out a way to pass a union-busting bill.

[Armstead]

32. You may be correct. But my point is...

that this is taking place in a much larger framework nationally.

The national GOP framework and agenda is clear -- Bust the Unions and therefore bust a last vestige of working class power, and Democratic political support.

The national Democratic counter framework? Er, um....

[rocktivity]

22. The Dems lost the working class because they never even put up a fight

Either out of complicity, incompetence, or intimidation, too many of them meekly jumped through every hoop the Rethunglicans put in front of them.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[fasttense]

24. On the issue of FIGHTING I must agree, the Dem's do tend to be spineless

However, you should remember that when you push people hard and far enough they will at some point fight back. The middle class is now fighting for it's very existence and I do NOT believe the people will lose.

The Democratic party will conclude that the people will not be denied their rights on this issue and when the majority of the democratic party realizes this they will get on board. They will then get a lot of sound bites out about them "standing for the working man/woman" in order to take credit for the movement the people have accomplished.

Never forget Politicians are opportunists.

[ProSense]

25. "Labor is going to lose this fight..."

Yeah, let's call the election at noon.

Giving up is always how the battle is won.

The people who took to the streets in WI didn't wait for a high-profile leader to say something. It's highly unlikely they're going to give up because people want a speech.

On edit: "The numbers are inevitable in Wisconsin. At some point there will be a vote. And the Republicans have the numbers to ram this through."


Well, people need to stop allowing them to win or voting for them, and then Dems will have the numbers.

[Armstead]

34. Er, you just made my point

"Well, people need to stop allowing them to win or voting for them, and then Dems will have the numbers"

Um, yeah...But why do you think people don't vote for Dems?

Could it be that too often people do not believe the Democrats are really looking out for their interests because the leaders do not actually take a stand on postions?

I am not referring to those like the state Democrats who left the state to boycott this bill. I am referring to the larger national framework of the Democratic establishment who are avoiding this issue like a hot potato.

Unless the national Democratic Party takes a clear stand on this on a national level, they will have blown yet another chance to make the case to voters for liberal/progressive principles.

[ProSense]

37. No, I didn't make your point

"Um, yeah...But why do you think people don't vote for Dems?"

So they can complain about being screwed over by Republicans?

[Armstead]

38. Because Democfrats don't give working people many real alternatives

Sure, in theory the Democratic Party represents all these wonderful things for the working class.

But in reality? Um not so much. They basically either avoid core issues or echo the Republican line.

Which leads many to say "All the bums are the same."

When coupled with the relentless genius of the right-wing GOP message machine -- and the lack of an equally clear Democratic message -- people who are not inherently ideological are thus easily swayed by the CONservative GOP nonsense.

[ProSense]

40. Oh please.

The Republican Party isn't an alternative. So if you think it's a good idea to allow them to win, keep complaining after they do.

[Armstead]

48. No I think it would be a golod idea to tell the truth and fight for it

You and I usually disagree on specifics -- But I think we agree on certain overriding principles regarding what is right and wrong, and that liberal, progressive policies are in the true interests of the middle and working classes and the poor.

The core underlying problem -- IMO -- is that as an institution, the Democratic Party stopped supporting those principles. Therefore it leads a political void that the GOP Spin Machine jumps in to fill.

That is one reason this situation is so frustrating to me. The real stakes and choices on this issue and the situation in Wisconsin and across the country is a no-brainer. It is an all-out assault on the right of workers to organize and collectively bargain.

And yet, nationally -- and with exceptions -- the Democratic national political establishment and, yes, President Obama are not opposing this national grab by the GOP. Nor are they doinjg much to translate the stakes into national terms.

In the bigger picture, that lack of definition and unambiguous support for the middle and working class is why we keep losing on issues and politically.

[ProSense]

54. I simply don't buy this argument.

"In the bigger picture, that lack of definition and unambiguous support for the middle and working class is why we keep losing on issues and politically."

The Democratic Party in Wisconsin is putting up a strong fight. Every statement from the President to the VP to Feingold, Obey and others have made it clear: Democrats support unions.

On this issue there is no question and no remote comparison to Republicans. So this argument is irrelevant.

There is no ambiguity.

[Armstead]

55. I am not talking about the state leaders in Wisconsin

The Democrats who left the legislature have gone above above and beyond the call of duty. And many individual Democratic politicians -- like the members of the Progressive Caucus in Congress -- have taken a clear stand.

But I haven't seen a lot of unified, coherent support from the national Democratic Establishment. Obama's oblique response to a question on a local TV news show is not what I am talking about.

[jeff47]

58. That would be dumb

The reason you haven't seen a lot of DNC and Obama speaking about this issue is that Walker and the governors like him are busy blasting away at their feet. Obama/DNC action means Walker and the like are no longer at the center of the media coverage.

Do not interrupt your enemies when they are making a mistake.

[Armstead]

64. Um, how many times have we heard that before?

"Trust Obama and the Democratic Establishment. There WILL be a Public Option in health reform."

The Democrats are being smart by allowing President Bush to self destruct in the debate over going into Iraq. We will never go to war there."

"The Democrats are being smart by not openly fighting to block Justice Alito and Roberts. The GOP has overreached by nominating those right-wing radicals."

[jeff47]

72. I'm not saying that

I'm saying that the poll numbers for the Republicans are dropping. They look worse and worse every single day.

Obama showing up turns the spotlight on him, giving the Republicans a reprieve so they can get their stuff back together. Obama should not give them that chance.

That has nothing to do with trusting them to deal with the situation. Despite your dire predictions, the situation is handled. Walker is done in a year, and the bills in other states are being tabled. Meanwhile the tea partiers are showing up massively outnumbered to counter-protest, killing their enthusiasm.

Given the bad starting position of the Democrats in this situation, it's working out extremely well.

[Arkana]

91. Who exactly said the last two things?

And those last two points were before we had a President who would never, EVER have considered Tweedledee and Tweedledum for SCOTUS.

[myrna minx]

28. Is this Eeyore Underground? I swear this is *why* we lose - we give up too early

and/or sabotage our own success. Republicans are brash and take on our strengths head on, we just wait around hoping they'll one day act honorably. We can't give up this fight.

[Armstead]

35. I'm not saying we SHOULD give this up. I am saying our national leaders are not taking a lead

[Jennicut]

29. Walker has woken labor up across the United States. And the public,

per some recent polls, does not agree with taking away collective bargaining rights. Wisconsin may lose this fight but perhaps people there may think twice about voting for Repubs again. They made a huge mistake.

[Armstead]

36. Walker has woken up labor -- But the question is has he woken up the Democratic Establishment?

[ProSense]

43. Walker

may have awoken a recall of his ass.

From the OP: "Because the Republicans fight. The GOP are not afraid of their own shadow."

Republicans are also dumbshits. If Walker being punk'd by a fake Koch isn't proof enough, let's see how long he lasts if he doesn't back off.

[TheKentuckian]

101. They have been stupid for decades and have been quick to overreach for even longer

I woudn't count on those seemingly deadly flaws to make a dent in the long term calculus. Not on any scale that we can foresee.

[Jennicut]

47. The people in Wisconsin can start a recall as ProSense has posted.

That can wake up everyone.

[ladjf]

49. While your post is true, it leaves out the "elephant in the room", which

is that the rich faction decided to put all of the resources behind the Republican candidates because they were confident that the Republicans were the best choice to enable full political
control. Had they thought that the Dems were a better choice, then the Dems would have won the majority of the seats.

The Gvt. of Wisconsin has been bought, lock, stock and barrel by the big money interests. (What a news flash!) It didn't matter significantly what type of response was offered by the Dems.

[Armstead]

51. In theory Obama tapped into the desire of a counterweight to that in 08

He made a big deal out of getting so many smaller contributions from individual voters, as a counterweight to the support of the oligarchs to the GOP.

The problem is that after he was elected, his "centrist" behavior has muddied the concept that if the common people support a candidate and/or party, they will represent their interests.

[polichick]

52. And a lot of that was smoke and mirrors anyway - he got more money...

...from big donors.

As a matter of fact, this administration can be described by that term "smoke and mirrors."

[ladjf]

70. No argument there or with the previous poster either. nt

[GeorgeGist]

53. From your point of view ...

labor deserves to lose, and the owners deserve to profit from labor's loss.

[Armstead]

56. My point was that by continuing -- for decades -- to move away from...

progressive/liberal populism the Democratic Party has given its ability (and in some cases the desire) to effectively advocate for the interests of workers and the middle class when push comes to shove.

When I say "we" are all to blame, I mean in a broad sense we have enabled this sellout and surrender over the last 30 years.

I don't blame all as individuals. But collectively we have screwed the pooch big time by not challenging (and in too many cases openly supporting) the GOP, Corporate CONservative push since the 1970's.

[opihimoimoi]

57. There will a fight...Truth, wisdom, common sense, and Reason will WIN.

The Nation needs to regain its $$$Flow. Ya don do it by busting unions....ya do it improving the Jobs Picture...

This the GOP has failed.....the DEMs wanna boost the numbers but are hampered stifled by the obstinate GOPers

[Arkana]

59. And it's attitudes like this that are the reason we lose all the time.

Congratulations--the GOP has successfully conditioned you to accept defeat.

As long as the Dems stay out of the state and labor keeps the pressure on Walker will come under increasing pressure to back down. Public opinion is still against him and it will remain so.

[Armstead]

61. I am not saying come down like a brick on Walker personally...

You may be correct in assuming Walker will implode....or not.

But my point is that this is a larger issue that is happening nationwide. Obama and other Democrats could take a stand on that without even mentioning Walker by name or going to Wisconsin.

But the silence from the Democratic establishment has been deafening (not including some individual leaders who have stood up for labor in this.) As a result, we afre allowing the GOP to set the agenda by default, yet again.

[frazzled]

62. The labor movement will have to rise again, in a new form

It must, and it will, I believe.

I believe these things are cyclic. The labor movement grew across the first two-thirds of the 20th century (starting as a fairly anarchist movement but becoming mainstream) because conditions were so bad that it gained the sympathies of large segments of society. It helped to create a middle class in this country, and thereby a large portion of its success. Then began its slow erosion, due to a number of factors, including the decline of traditional types of industry like manufacturing. Also, having achieved a large number of its aims, the public began no longer to see workers as the "underdog," and Republican politicians were able to exploit this. Starting with Reagan, the unions became weakened. The recession has given Republicans (false) economic reasons to try to finally bust the unions forever.

But the oppression of unions has indeed reawakened people's sentiments. Being the underdogs, the aggrieved parties, may be a boon to the union movement in the end, a chance to restrengthen it. But it will take new leadership, new strategies, new narratives. I believe twenty years from now, we will see a new labor movement, more encompassing than in the past, perhaps including large swaths of urban office workers as well, people in the tech fields, larger portions of the service industries, and segments of society we never thought would want to unionize before.

I, for one, am looking to the future, not the past, for models and new hope.

[Armstead]

66. 20 years from now the US will be a fuedal backwater if we don't address this stuff NOW

I've been around long enough to have seen this "cycle" coming and playing out by gutting the middle class, workers and the poor, while all was turned over to the oligarchs.

And I've seen too many times how the Democratic Party aided and abetted in the decline of working and middle class and the destruction of the American economy and democracy by their avoidance of these issues or their willing collaboration with the GOP and the Corporate Oligarchs over the years.

Every time that we have seemed to be beginning to turn a corner and shift towards a better day, we backtracked and things kept getting worse.

You can't eat empty hope, and we will never solve these things by kicking the can down the road forever based on some vague notion that they will turn around at some distant point.

[frazzled]

67. I didn't say we shouldn't start this rebuilding right now

We absolutely should, and stop the dismantling in every way possible. But heavens to betsy, it takes time to build strength and a new vision. If you didn't live through any of these movements (labor, civil rights, etc.), you must not know that things don't happen overnight.

[Armstead]

68. Alas, I've seen us continually slip backward in terms of issues of money and power

There have been plenty of chances to stop the slide -- and many good individuals, politicians and groups -- have been doing what they can.

But they have lacked the strength of a national political party that actually stands with them, to turn that into law and policies over the years, and to change the terms of the debate.

This is one of those times when there is a chance to stop the erosion. But so far, the Democratic leadership is standing on the sidelines yet again.

[golfguru]

65. With $3.6 Billion shortfall, results in WI are inevitable

[HughBeaumont]

69. The best way to destroy a party and everything it stands for is to buy it.

It's because politicians of all stripes love money and don't care about US.

I don't make a mistake when I vote Democratic.

I vote that way because the USA should not be a war-happy hate-church filled with a congregation of "everyone-in-their-station" wage slaves, and if it were ever to become that way, the sensible people of this country either goes ALL IN with a full-scale revolt against the wealthmongers that made it that way or abandon this crapcake altogether.

[Sheepshank]

74. Obama completely understands what is at risk nationally

with labor and re-election chances.

7 of the top 10 corporate political contributions go to the GOP, the other 3 going to the Dems are all from Labor Unions. Obama knows exactly how important Labor is.

Given the above financial reality, do you understand what happens to the Democratic Party if Unions go away?

What I see clearly are those telling Obama that he should do 'something', yet having no fucking clue what they are talking about because (1) they don't know what plsnd have already been implemented behind the scenes (2) they don't exactly know what Obama can and should do that doesn't undermine actions already in process.

At what point didn't we see things that appeared to be pulled out of a hat. Yeah yeah yeah bring up Public Option like it was the only thing Obama was elected to do and it was so easy to acheive up front. But we've seen the hat tricks over, and still continue to forget.

[Armstead]

77. It's not rlocket science

Obama does not necessarily have to go to Wisconsin, meddle in state politics or even mention Walker by name.

The very least he can do is to speak lout and committ himself and the Democratic Party to protecting the interests of the working and middle classes against the assault on them by the Corporate Oligarchs and their GOP henchmen and women. That would include also reaffirming support for the principles of organized labor and collective bargaining.

That should be the instinctive response by anyone who is remotely liberal and progressive.

[Sheepshank]

78. The rocket science in this is that you are implying nothing has been said on the matter.

What is even more clear, is that what has been said isn't apparently to your liking for one reason or another.

[Armstead]

79. Dick Durbin nailed it the other day....

as have many of the Progressive Caucus and others.

But from too many other Democratic leaders the silence is deafening.

Oh yes, President Obama referred to it in passing once...That makes it a whole lot better.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

82. If the vote goes the wrong way, there's always the option to strike

A strike is a gamble, and a hardship for workers, but it can get results.

The workers have no other good weapon. Not with the Republicans controlling the govt.

:hi:

[ShadowLiberal]

84. The media is to blame for a lot of our problems, look at how uninformed people are

I think a lot of our problems are on with the freaking media doing a horrible job at reporting the facts.

I mean look at the polls that show a sizeable minority think the healthcare bill was already overturned, because the media pretty much ignored 3 judges who ruled it constitutional (I didn't even know a 3rd judge ruled it constitutional earlier this week until today).

The kind of coverage that republican lies during the healthcare debate got also show more of our problems. Republicans are just much more likely to scream and make up crap, and the media takes it seriously, like their stupid death panel lie that forced law makers to take compensating doctors for end of life advise out of the bill.

A democracy cannot stay a healthy democracy if the electorate is so badly misinformed. How can voters hold politicians accountable if they're blaming them for passing stuff that was never even considered in the legislature?

[Armstead]

85. True -- which is one reason Democrats should have fought against...

Things like the Telecommunications Deform Act in the 1990's, and the monopolistic mergers like the recent GE Comcast merger.

[yellowcanine]

87. Walker may win this round but I believe he will lose the war.

He has fired up the Democratic base and a lot of Dem leaning independents, even some moderate Republicans as has not been done since the 2008 election.

[Ikonoklast]

88. Wisconsin is going to be the Right's Pearl Harbor.

The Teabagger Republican Party launched a sneak attack against Labor, and, much to their chagrin, are puzzled that those they wish to impoverish are PISSED OFF.

[CLANG]

89. Bull.

We've already had one republican defector. The heat is really on these republican senators, especially the ones with a high population of Democrats.

Walker will lose. Count on it! Wisconsinites FIGHT!

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Armstead]

95. NAH

[asphalt.jungle]

93. a good number of Wisconsin's union households screwed it for the rest

Same way they helped usher in the Regan era with that Regan Democrats nonsense.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/02/28/wisconsin_do_over.html

A new Public Policy Polling survey finds that if Wisconsin voters could do it over today they’d support Tom Barrett (D) over Gov. Scott Walker (R) by a seven point margin, 52% to 45%.

...

Key finding: “The difference between how folks would vote now and how they voted in November can almost all be attributed to shifts within union households. Voters who are not part of union households have barely shifted at all- they report having voted for Walker by 7 points last fall and they still say they would vote for Walker by a 4 point margin. But in households where there is a union member voters now say they’d go for Barrett by a 31 point margin, up quite a bit from the 14 point advantage they report having given him in November.”

but yes blame the Democrats because they don't deliver perfection and forced you to vote Republican or not at all. That will show those elite Dems how serious you are because nothing bad can happen.

[mdmc]

94. ..

[guruoo]

96. This is bigger than Wisconsin, and leadership of it (for now) needs to remain with the grassoots,

IMO.

[Jakes Progress]

98. You make good points.

You say things that the party and those who consider themselves to be Democrats and progressives should heed.

But here you run into the phalanx of apologists and ardentists. No matter how true what you say is, if it can be in anyway construed as a complaint about this administration, then the dozen or so self-appointed will rain obfuscation, diversion, and calumny down upon your thread.

They believe they are doing the lord's work. Many of us believe they are enablers and doing poor service to the party and our president.

We ignore the timidity of our current leaders at our peril.

[murdoch]

100. The Democrats and Republicans are basically the same

The Democratic party is whatever George Soros wants it to be. He calls the shots.
The GOP is whatever the Koch brothers want it to be. They call the shots there.

There are a handful of other rentiers involved, but you can narrow it down to these three. Do any of the rich DLC types who have complete control of the Democratic Party differ from Soros in their views much? No. Do any of the slow-growth rentiers who run the GOP with the Koch brothers differ from the Koch's in any significant way? No.

The last defection in these ranks that I can remember was 1992, when H. Ross Perot became unhappy about the size of the national deficit and bolted from the GOP.

Why isn't the Democratic leadership doing anything? Are you kidding? They are doing and will continue to do nothing. The only thing that does anything is long-term, local organization, which could possibly grow and reach a critical mass and then begin to change things. And it is a constant struggle, the other side is always pushing back. I read somewhere once that "the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle."

[Lastactiongyro]

102. Recall of the senators is underway. Time is on our side.

60 days and they are out. We playing a waiting game is all.

[backscatter712]

104. How's that crow tasting right about now? n/t

[former9thward]

105. Did we win? I guess I missed that in the news.