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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:26 AM
Original message
Liberals: We Lost the Health Care Battle But Won the War
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 07:30 AM by babylonsister
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/Liberals-We-Lost-the-Health-Care-Battle-But-Won-the-War-1922

Liberals: We Lost the Health Care Battle But Won the War
By Max Fisher on December 15, 2009 4:06pm


Last week it looked like a Medicare buy-in compromise could save the public option, but failure to secure the votes--thanks to some serious opposition work by Sen. Joe Lieberman--appears to have killed the public option for good. After many months of wrangling (and the successful passage of the public option in the House), liberals are unsurprisingly frustrated and angry. But a new consensus is on emerging on the left that, although the loss of the public option is a short-term defeat, it produces long-term victory by making health care reform more likely. There's an element of spin here; after all, many liberals have spent close to a year fervently demanding a public option. But could they have a case?

* Lose The Battle, Win The War The Washington Post's Ezra Klein explains. "A lot of progressives woke up this morning feeling like they lost. They didn't. The public option and its compromised iterations were a battle that came to seem like a war. But they weren't the war. The bill itself was."

* 'Why Progressives Are Batshit Crazy to Oppose the Senate Bill' Nate Silver crunches the numbers and finds that a hypothetical family earning $54,000/year would pay $19,576 for health insurance in 2016 if nothing changes. But with the Senate legislation (sans public option), that drops to $9,000. "I understand that most of the liberal skepticism over the Senate bill is well intentioned. But it has become way, way off the mark. Where do you think the $800 billion goes? It goes to low-income families just like these. Where do you think it comes from? We won't know for sure until the Senate and House produce their conference bill, but it comes substantially from corporations and high-income earners, plus some efficiency gains."

* Would Still Make HistoryMatthew Yglesias praises the legislation even without a public option or Medicare buy-in. "If Barack Obama signs it into law, he’ll go down as the president with the most progressive legislative accomplishments since Lyndon Johnson. You’ll say that the American welfare state was inaugurated by FDR, substantially expanded by Johnson, and given its final shape by Obama," he writes. "As it stands, the level-playing field public option took a bullet for the team. And consequently, millions of currently uninsured Americans are closer than ever to having insurance and the rest of us are closer than ever to having a sense of security that if our own insurance goes away we won’t be left high and dry. "

* PO Debate Protected Rest of Reform The New Republic's Jonathan Cohn praises liberal Senators who "simply care too much about people struggling with their medical bills--people who would still benefit, clearly, from reform without a public option--to mount further resistance." He writes, "Disappointed progressives may be wondering whether their efforts were a waste. They most decidedly were not. The campaign for the public option pushed the entire debate to the left--and, to use a military metaphor, it diverted enemy fire away from the rest of the bill. If Lieberman and his allies didn't have the public option to attack, they would have tried to gut the subsidies, the exchanges, or some other key element. They would have hacked away at the bill, until it left more people uninsured and more people under-insured. The public option is the reason that didn't happen."

* High Expectations Reflect Rise of Left Mother Jones's Kevin Drum talks tough. "{L}iberals who now want to pick up their toys and hand reform its sixth defeat in the past century need to wake up and smell the decaf. Politics sucks. It always has. But the bill in front of us—messy, incomplete, and replete with bribes to every interest group imaginable—is still well worth passing," he writes. "Ten years ago this bill would have seemed a godsend. The fact that it doesn't now is a reflection of higher aspirations from the left, and that's great. It demonstrates a resurgence of liberalism that's long overdue. But this is still a huge achievement that will benefits tens of millions of people in very concrete ways and will do it without expanding our long-term deficit."


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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. The republicans would put Newt Gingrich in charge of health care reform.
On behalf of the insurance companies.

Hopefully, whatever passes can be improved upon as people see it is a good thing.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Removing the Mandate is a win-win for everyone.
Removing the Mandate is a win-win for everyone.

After the removal of the public option, the mandate is what is making this bill worse than nothing. Without the mandate, no one is forced into buying from a bunch of thieves, Americans are no longer locked into health care through insurance corporations and the Democratic party wont be blamed for every death dealing lousy con the health insurance corporations play.

They could put the mandate on a trigger. If Americans start abusing the health insurance corporations, and the corporations can prove 30% of their customers are waiting until the last minute and causing undue loss in profits, then the trigger would kick in. Or just add the mandate later if problems come up.

Remove the mandate, pass the legislation, and President Obama and the Democratic party can do a happy dance and claim they have health care reform.

Then through reconciliation expand Medicare for all.

It's a win-win for everyone. The health insurance corporations still get some new customers from people who use the subsidies. The Democratic party can pretend to have done health care reform. The Republicons can claim they stopped socialized medicine. And Americans aren't getting a worse system and are getting a few tidbits of improvement.

Then using reconciliation pass Medicare for all.

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. If I'm reading this correctly, there was a mandate with the PO, too.
Why was that okay, but now isn't? And I'm just going to sit back and wait until something is actually passed after conference. No one knows what the end result will look like.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/12/the_best_argument.php?ref=fpblg

The Best Argument
Josh Marshall | December 15, 2009, 2:48PM


The best argument I've heard from people who say the emerging bill isn't just insufficient but just bad law is this: If you're going to force people to buy coverage (mandates), you need to provide them an alternative to buying private sector health insurance to prevent them from getting gouged by the insurance companies. In the abstract that makes a lot of sense. And it even makes a decent amount of sense in the non-abstract, real world.

Here's the problem though. The fantasy Public Option would have served this role and put a lot of downward pressure on private sector insurance premiums. And at the beginning of this debate I thought that's what was being discussed. In fact, though, none of the Public Options that had any support in Congress really accomplished this. They were all designed to keep most people from being able to buy in. That's why the scoring from the CBO showed very few people actually buying into it (2 million for the senate bill and 6 for House bill, if memory serves) and relatively little downward pressure on premiums. Why they were so feeble-ized is a good question -- for which I've heard some good and some bad answers.

My point though is that if you are worried about mandates now (and I think that's a very legitimate worry) you should have been worried about them with a Public Option too.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. If you actually don't know why mandates are OK with a public option
and not OK when it comes to simply forcing people to fork over 27% of their income to big insurance, you're too ignorant to even bother discussing this with you.

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. The point is that the PO was supposed to offer an affordable alternative to private insurance.
I doubt that the most recent versions of the PO (and in particular the Senate version) would have allowed this, but this is the thinking (and the main reason to support a PO).

The other possibility would have been to have cost control on private insurances to make sure that premium and deductibles/copay stay affordable. It was another possibility, but you can imagine that those Dems who oppose the PO because it displeases insurance companies will certainly not go for this either.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Some of us have always worried about mandates.
Including the current President - he campaigned against them - so why will he sign a bill with them in it now?

He needs a victory - any victory - even a Pyhrric victory.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. The word "public" is key here. People hate the idea of mandating that we
buy health insurance from the private insurance industry.

We are currently mandated to pay for the public option of Medicare through our payroll taxes and, when we enroll in Medicare Part B, through a deduction of $96 from our SS check each month. If you don't sign up for Part B when we enroll in Medicare you will be penalized later, with a higher monthly fee, if you do not have other coverage. So there has always been this penalty for not signing up and no one is upset about it because Medicare is such a good deal.
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Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Yes... once they compromised away the public option and Medicare buy-in...
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 04:19 PM by Blasphemer
The logical counter-move is to remove the mandate. It's the only way it is remotely palatable.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. Like a family of 4 grossing $54,000 can afford $9000 for health insurance?
What planet does this guy live on? In another quote of this article I thought I saw the same hypothetical family paying $4000 - guess what, they can't afford that either. Talk about lipstick on a pig.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. exactly NT
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. $9000 is still double the actual cost.
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Kitsune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Where do you think that 800 billion goes? To the goddamned insurance mafia.
Subsidies for criminals who get unimaginably rich off of the suffering of others is disgusting and I will never support it.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Some are so willingly deceived ... too many "lambs to the slaughter" for Big Insurance and Pharma.
:(
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Yup - the warm-up act was Medicare Advantage
This is the main event. Imagine - an 800 billion dollar payout to the greediest bunch of heartless for-profit bastards anyone's ever seen.

Maybe we can get the President to open up the poor houses again too.
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. I agree with you
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. Don't think so -- This will poison any futire attempts at improvement
After this monstrosity is put into place, no one will want to touc h health care reform with a ten foot pole in the future.

So we'll be stuck with a shitty bill that will further entrench a rotten system.

Not really a victory

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. No, even IF we win one health care battle out of many with this apporach, we lose a larger war
If the progressive base of the Democratic Party WITH the support of the majority of the American public, can be so easily sold out on a much watered down and virtually compromised away completely central tenet of our political vision for America, because of the obstructionist power of entrenched corporate interests, we lose a much larger war. This is where the the show down occurred. Under other circumstances it might have been over a different issue, but whether by happenstance or design this is where it happened. With both sides of a much larger political civil war than mere health care reform (important as that might be) fully mobilized for this showdown, the results of this battle have far broader implications than only health care reform, with long lasting implications. We are currently losing the war.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. We lost the whole damn thing. The bill should be retitled
The Insurers and Senators Windfall Income act.

This mess is a disgrace, even for Congress, and I have just emailed both my democratic Senators and President Obama to let them know I will not be voting for any of them in the next Primaries - I will be looking for a real Democrat, if any still exist.

They are fucking cowards and not worth any more of my time or effort.

mark
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Robbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. Sorry
Liberals lost.Conservatives won.It Is that simple.You may have Liberal senators saying this Is still
a good deal but they are wrong.As usual the Democratic Party expects Liberals to give In to COnservatives.Conservatives have done no compromsing what so ever.

No single payer

No Public Opotion of any kind

No expansion of medicare and Medicaid

Giveaway to Insurance companys

Mandates and fines on people to force them to buy Insurance.Yet no real help to people to be able to
get Insurance.

Trusting the biggest crooks In the world Is a mistake.And corporate America who we given all this
money has not changed at all.They give bonuses to execs who got us Into the financial mess.

So exactly what have Liberals win?Absolutly nothing.They wasted all this time on a bill that Is shit.
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Don't forget our "representatives" are
Not going to kill the anti trust exemption & they are going to put caps on treatment. Congress is not going to piss off their paymasters. Class War fuckers.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. Wow. What a load. nt
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
22. Here is the problem with Klein and Yglesias view

I agree that it is a huge transformative step that on that one point should be applauded.

Made that point here: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/240

But my dear friend this is the critical point that is being overlooked.

When we added Social Security we were adding a government bureacracy and function.

Here we are not adding a public option or expanding medicare. In this legislation we are literally being married to the health care industry.

We are going to pass a mandate forcing people to buy non government insurance and then we will have very little control over what these companies do.

I have worked in both the government and private sector and I can tell you definitively without an ounce of reluctance that this arrangement will be a nightmare for the government. The private sector is so flexible and has such a greater ability to manuever that we will be in a constant continued fight over every little detail of how these plans will be administered.

We are "expanding government" function and then handing the administration to the private sector.
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