One of the fastest recoveries in the history of our nation.

[Badfish]

But it's still not good enough ?

I don't understand this nation , it's never enough.

[vaberella]

1. Welcome to America?! If DU can be seen as a small example--goalposts change all the time. n/t

[rucky]

2. How are you measuring recovery? For whom?

From the perspective of an unemployed person, your take on this is astounding to me.

[Badfish]

4. well...

gdp
market
job creation
ect ...

The usual.

Bush inherited a very mild recession and it took over two years to see positive job growth. We just saw positive job growth INSIDE two years from a recession so deep it was called a depression by some.

Point at a faster recovery since FDR.

[rucky]

7. Okay let's start with GDP

companies are raising output and more profitable than ever. Companies have recovered.

The market: The top 2% make up about 80% of the wealth exchanged on Wall Street. The top 2% has recovered.

Job creation: Still not outpacing college grads. Most of the jobs created were low-wage jobs - driving overall wages down. Meanwhile stable solid public sector jobs for professionals are disappearing at record pace, and the middle class opportunities for professionals is flat in the private sector. The job market has recovered if you're willing to work for way less.

Meanwhile, while we're on the couch eating chips and complaining about rising gas prices, food prices and energy prices thanks largely to the commodities players on Wall Street (see item 2).

When more than the top 2% of us begins to benefit from all this recovery, you can outright call the rest of us lazy whiners instead of just inferring it. Until then, please try to look a bit deeper into what's really happening with the wealth that's being created.

[mkultra]

9. This was a hugely deep recession

and jobs is a lagging indicator. you measure the speed compared to the size of dip. Not by the seat of your pants.

[rucky]

11. I keep hearing that jobs is a lagging indicator...

but if corporations are more profitable with a leaner, more productive workforce, what incentive do they have to hire?

if real wages and benefits are being cut in the private sector as a measure of sacrifice, what process is in place to preserve a standard of living for the middle class?

if tax breaks were offered to the "employer class" as an incentive to hire - after over a year of GDP growth - then what is GDP indicating that would suggest that job growth would follow?

If employment is a lagging indicator of GDP, then trickle-down economics would actually work. The fact is that labor is an investment in the growth and productivity of a company - and without the subsidies offered to prop up businesses as they downsize and outsource - they wouldn't be able to grow without expanding their workforce. So in a truly "free market," GDP would be a trailing indicator of employment: The workers supply the productivity and the means to produce & expand wealth. But in the corporate business model of today, the actual product or service that is produced for the market is secondary: The real profits come from investors who pour more money into a corporation that shows a good balance sheet. The consumer market has very little to do with the growth we're seeing - it's just 2-percenters passing their money back and forth as the market gains value for as long as they can keep that going.

[high density]

15. Our economy in the USA will never work as it is structured today

Essentially the top 2% wants us all to either not work or to work for nothing. At the same time they want us to spend an ever-increasing amount of money so they can deliver additional profits every quarter. Either the top 2% is going to have to take their businesses and follow the money offshore, or megatons of money is going to have to start flowing in a direction other than up. I agree that the sideways spending and speculation by the top 2% has propped the US (i.e. them) up temporarily, but that's obviously not a way to grow the economy.

Unfortunately, it's clear that nearly all of our elected leaders are either a part of or are owned by this wealthy 2%, so they have no incentive to tax offshore wages and goods so that American workers can fairly compete in the global economy. Of course every other country on the planet does this sort of thing to benefit themselves, but if the USA does it, it's protectionism and dangerous. Then you have the Tom Friedman and crazy teabagger types that feel American workers should lower ourselves to third world standards and become China 2 in the sake of "fair" competition. I suppose this briefly benefits the top 2%, but again, the long term trend is magnifying the effect we see today. Businesses will have to follow the money offshore, since American workers will no longer be able to buy up the stuff that the companies want to sell. Much like the mortgage bubble, the top 2% passing their money back and forth can only prop it up for so long before it comes tumbling down again. The economy needs a fundamental change to start focusing on the American worker instead of maximizing returns for the ownership society.

The fact that the right-wing has successfully ignited class warfare amongst the middle class does not give me a hopeful outlook.

[Badfish]

10. ok..

the market: I have a 401 that has recovered , thank god. It's one thing the GOP can't hide , people will always see their 401 statements when they come , and I like what see.

Job creation: "Still not outpacing college grads" ...Like I said , steady job growth coming out of a depression.. some will never be happy, the whole point of the thread.

Welcome to reality , the numbers don't lie.

[rucky]

12. Yes, you can cherry-pick numbers to forward your narrative

but that is focusing on one reality - and a small one in your example. All the numbers show some positives and some negatives, but very few people can say their happy with the current situation - or even the trajectory of it, which indicates years more of high unemployment and personal financial instability.

So it's spinnery to suggest that good things are happening so quickly, and it's cold comfort for those still suffering. The reason we got soaked in the midterms is because the Democrats tried to convince people that things were getting better, when the reality that they were experiencing told a different story. This didn't convince people of anything, but it did support the impression that people in Washington are out of touch with day to day reality.

[woo me with science]

13. Excellent posts on this thread. nt

[SkyDaddy7]

68. Although, I understand what you are saying I don't think...

You understand what the OP is saying. Or maybe you do & don't care? If you expect us to back to <or=5% Unemployment by now then you really do think President Obama & the Democrats had a magic wand & simply decided not to use it. The point was compared to every recession/depression over the past Century this recovery has been fast not that everything is back to "normal".

Now, that does not mean there is not much further to go of course there is. And I do not think the OP denies that at all but it really appears that you think everything should be back to "normal". Or you can't bring yourself to admit the President's policies are working or even moving us in the correct direction.

[Exilednight]

39. A recession is a depression. Over the years, economists

have come up with new terms. Originally they were caused panics, then depressions and currently we call them recessions.

Over the years the terms has just become softer in tone, but it's all the same thing.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

3. Recovery for whom?

Wall St.? The banksters? That must be who you are referring to, because for the rest of us, there simply hasn't been a recovery. Not with there being sixteen percent unemployment, an ongoing housing slump, stagnant wages, and little help forthcoming.

Recovery:rofl: You're funny.

[Badfish]

5. so...

the job market isn't recovering , we haven't seen positive growth month after month after month ?

the gdp hasn't had positive growth month after month after month ?

the DOW hasn't gone from 6500 to 12,200 ?


You are living in a fantasy world , join us in reality.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robcon]

8. Not even close to the fastest recovery...

It is the longest time to recovery since the Depression:

http://www.nber.org/cycles/cyclesmain.html

[nod factor]

14. Two charts that say it all -->

[DCBob]

17. One should note the scale on that Labor Participation graph goes from just 64-67%..

If you strech that out over 0-100% and over several decades.. its hardly a blip.

[Badfish]

24. some notice.

others chose not to.

+1 Bob.

[Armstead]

27. So therefore, everything is okay? No worries?

[DCBob]

29. plenty of worries.. why do some find it necessary to exaggerate it?

[Armstead]

31. I think people exagerate it because it has been ignored for so long

The REAL problems in our economy go even deeper than the Wall St. rip-off and the crash of 08.

It has been building for years -- deacades. The economy and lour basic value system has been chipped away at least since the 1980's. We have sunbk to a point where what would have been considered to be shocking and unacceptably immoral corporate behavior 40 years ago is now considered to be the norm.

By steadily cutting out the legs from under the working/middle class, allowing massive corporate monopolies to take over the economy, society and political system and shipping production to overseas sweatshops, we have been ignoring a looming disaster for far too long.

And now that the chickens are coming home to roost, we're going to see even bigger disasters soon if we don't shake off our collective lethargy and start challenging the Conservative (and "centyrist") wisdom now.

If it takes some hyperbolie to shake the sand out of people's eyes, so be it.

[DCBob]

32. I agree with your main point.. but disagree hyperbole is necessary..

that's what the RW does and it is nothing we want to emulate. That kind of politcal tactic will backfire in the long run.

[Armstead]

33. I didn't mean should be deliberatly misleading -- I guess there's a difficult line

Part of the problem is that we've been spoonfed with "conventional wisdom" that either ignores or drastically understates the core problems for so long. Also, even in situations like the current mess is portrayed in terms like "If we could just get a recovery going, everything will be fine" -- which is misleading and glosses over the systemic problems.

So strong language is needed, and troublesome trends need to be pointed out.

You are correct in that exaggeration or lies are not appropriate either. However, between that and continuing to sweep it uinder the rug, I'd rather err on that side than on continuing to reinforce GOP CONservative crap.

[DCBob]

34. Putting it that way makes sense.

over and out.

[joshcryer]

61. He was pointing out how the graph could be misleading:

I personally might not have noticed if he didn't say anything (though I think on a second look I would've dug deeper, since I'm used to that sort of graph trick with global warming deniers).

[Lucky Luciano]

43. In some sense 60% or so might be like zero as that should be an absolute floor. nt

[DCBob]

47. Another thing about that graph.. notice the downward trend started around 2000..

How does Obama get the blame for that?

[joshcryer]

60. Outsourcing gets the blame for this, imho.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

56. One should also note that that 3% represents a few million people.

Also hardly a blip.

[joshcryer]

59. Thanks for pointing that out, I went and googled:

[DCBob]

63. Wow, that really puts things in perspective.

thanks for finding and posting that.

[slay]

19. +1

thanks for some actual real info that shows this is NOT a recovery to soooooo many people!

[Starry Messenger]

20. Thank you.

[GSLevel9]

25. nonsense...

food stamp consumption has NOTHING to do with the state of the economy. Everything is peachy, RAH RAH RAH!!!!

:sarcasm:

[DCBob]

30. FYI: The increase in food stamp participation is also effected by programs to expand availability...

"The Obama initiative to expand the availability of food stamps has come with a substantial price tag. The federal government will spend an estimated $63.6 billion this year alone on the food stamp program – up from $34.6 billion in 2008, the last year of the Bush administration."

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2010/04/14/USDA-Will-Spend-63-billion-On-Food-Stamps-This-Year.aspx

[phleshdef]

35. Obama doubles food stamps then gets blamed for more people being on food stamps.

Then anytime he cuts anything remotely related to a poverty program, he gets blamed for taking away people's food stamps.

Its insane.

[DCBob]

49. Yeah, it makes you want to scream sometimes.

I guess some people simply will never be satisfied or perhaps their intent is simply to bash the President no matter what he does.

[joshcryer]

62. Man, it really is. :(

[uponit7771]

16. Fastest recovery relative to the number of jobs lost, FDR had 83% dem congress

[TheKentuckian]

21. Didn't start that way. He campaigned against those who opposed his agenda,

rallied the people, and got something to work with.

Nobody believes in magic like the "pragmatic progressives", such folks can only be matched by absurd radical regressives.

Things happen for reasons, political success is not a weather pattern.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Avant Guardian]

23. We are on the verge of collapse

We are held together by duct tape, bailing wire, and deficit spending. There will be no recovery until the Bush tax policy goes away.

[Badfish]

26. We WERE on the verge.

and , if you think reversing the Bush tax policy will fix everything , then you need to take a closer look.

[Armstead]

28. We still are on the verge -- and Bush tax policy is just the tip of the iceburg

[Badfish]

48. verge of what ?

jeeesh , why even take the time to post ?

Half this thread is filled with posts like yours , telling us how wrong we are , but keeping the truth a secret.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. How does $5+ dollars per gallon of gas figure in backing away from the verge?

Not to mention the price of diesel. You DO know that 95% of this nation's goods are delivered by diesel power, right?

[Badfish]

54. nice try.

Why not look at the job creation ? ..or at least the loss of massive amounts of jobs every month ? ...Why not look at the positive GDP we are now seeing month after month ?

No ... You look at the price of gas at your local station to judge how the economy is doing ignoring all the historical indicators of a recovering economy.

[BeyondGeography]

36. We're not in great shape, not the Prez's fault, but this is a bottom-heavy recovery jobs-wise

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/2011/02/27/20110227biz-insider0227berry.html

The number of high-wage jobs lost is about three times greater than the number created during the recovery. Corporations are squeezing us for record profits and voting thumbs-down on the future. The combination of their greed and our unfortunate moment in history is pretty brutal.

[mikekohr]

37. Thank You President Obama For A Job Well Done, -albeit not always appreciated or understood-

?

?


President Obama took over at the depths of the George W. Bush Great Recession and immediately stopped the stunning increase in monthly job loss and reversed the trend. We have now witnessed 10 of the last 11 month's producing positive private sector job growth.
(October and November of 2010 also showed an increase in private sector job growth which makes 12 of the last 13 month's in positive territory)

President Obama's economic policies have created more private sector jobs in less than 2 years than did George W. Bush's economic policies did in 8.

?

One should also note that in the very first quarter that President Obama was in office, the effects of the stimulus began to reverse the free fall he inherited from George W. Bush. In the ending of George W. Bush's Great Recession, we see the same pattern repeated: Republicans cause recessions, Democrats clean them up (see History of Recessions).

It took 6 months for President Obama's economic and tax policies to return GDP to positive territory. If we as a nation want to avoid the painful recovery from the climb out of economic holes we have to quit electing those digging them.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mHSyEv8vBt4/TIKJmVIq8xI/AAAAAAAAAFI/AInWHvWVIxA/s400/New+Picture.jpg?
Strongest Job Recovery In Decades is Underway


9 of the last 10 recessions occurred under Republican economic policy, including todays George W. Bush’s “Great Recession,” the deepest economic downturn since Hoover’s “Great Depression” of 1929. President Obama has not only halted the staggering job loss of over 780,000 per month he inherited from George W. Bush but President Obama’s “Bubble Up Economic” policies has reached positive increase in monthly job creation with unmatched speed.
The economic pain being felt today is a result of the depth of the hole that was dug by the Republican “Trickle Down” policies of the Republican Party. The nation suffered a loss of 8.4 million, or 7% of all jobs, in George W. Bush’s “Great Recession.” This compares with a loss of 3.1% of all jobs lost during George W. Bush’s first recession of March–November of 2001, and 1.9% of all jobs lost during George H.W. Bush’s recession of July 1990-March of 1991. -The deeper the hole, the longer the climb out of it- If Americans wish to avoid the pain of recovery from recession, we need to quit electing the people digging the holes.

[Badfish]

38. tell it

[cherokeeprogressive]

42. This post epitomizes "whistling past the graveyard". n/t

[mikekohr]

53. That post epitomizes a Pragmatic Progressive That Recognizes Accomplishment and the giant hole we

inherited and are in the process of backfilling. 0f the last 10 recessions, 9 have been caused by Republican economic policy and all three of our nation's deepest economic downturns occurred under Republican leadership.
see: http://bureaucountydems.blogspot.com/p/history-of-recessions.html

That is the issue here. Republicans 'F" up and Democrats clean up. If we want to avoid the pain of the long climb back out of economic black holes we need to quit electing the sons of bitches that dig the holes in the first place.

[Badfish]

55. You love posting one liners.

why not try and refute the post with facts and links ?

Just saying.

[bvar22]

41. Wall Street is NOT "The Economy".

If the government pumped a few trillion borrowed dollars into my pocket,
I would look "recovered" too.


"The gross national product measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning,
neither our compassion nor our devotion to country. It measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile; and it can tell us everything about America except whether we are proud to be Americans"---RFK

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Avant Guardian]

44. Compared to what?

The great depression?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TriMera]

45. Glad to see you're doing so well. eom

[Safetykitten]

52. This is the worst kind of selective propaganda.

[Badfish]

57. then what indicators should we be looking at ?

[Ikonoklast]

58. The 'My Opinion Trumps Reality And Cold Hard Facts' indicators.

These type of people use numbers and graphs to smack President Obama around with, but when actual Democrats use them, they are 'meaningless'.

[LWolf]

64. I've yet to see any recovery.

My own job is in jeopardy, and we've cut days and salary and seen layoffs for 3 years in a row.

My son was laid off 2 years ago, and was finally rehired...for minimum wage. By the same company. He is making about 20% what he was making before. He doesn't feel the recovery.

In my region, housing foreclosures are still up, and the population is still fleeing, hoping for better prospects elsewhere. What about this situation is supposed to be "enough" for me?

[Bake]

65. I take it YOU have a job ... many many many many many still don't.

Recovery my ass.

Bake

[AngryAmish]

66. Winning!

[Skittles]

67. WHAT fucking recovery???

[Badfish]

69. I am begging you guys...

please post the indicators that we should be looking at to judge a recovery.

[Skittles]

71. living wage jobs/raises returning to America

would be a fucking START

[Dawgs]

70. Crappy jobs and the rich getting richer is not a recovery that should get us excited.

Your desperate attempt to convince us is getting embarrassing.

[Badfish]

72. You made yourself clear...

the ONLY indicator we can look at is wages.

[Keith Bee]

73. Shhh!

You're ruining the narrative of Our Glorious Free Press Which Is Not Beholden To Corporate Interests In Any Way.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

74. When it's Obama, it's NEVER good enough! n/t