It looks like I was wrong about Wisconsin

[Armstead]

One of my posts from a week or so resurfaced today. "Labor is going to lose this one -- and we have ourselves to blame."

I would have been happy to see that one continue to drop down the list.

I said, in the hyperbolic style that I sometimes resort to, is that Republicans are in control there, and thus hold the levers of power. I further said that the fact that Democrats have been so ineffectual in representing working people that we all share in the responsibility for that.

Well, happily it looks like I was probably wrong. The good people of Wisconsin may be on the verge of pulling an upset of monumental proportions.

If that happens, I will be very happy to be wrong.

However, if it is a victory, it will be a grassroots one, and a victory for the brave Dems who forced the issue by leaving the state. I Still believe that in Wisconsin and elsewhere, the national Democratic leadership needs to be much more proactive in standing up for progressive populism.

[msongs]

1. lol the national democratic party leadership needs to quit acting like republicans nt

[Major Hogwash]

2. I wasn't sure you were wrong, so I kept my opinion to myself.

And just hoped that you were wrong. I didn't want to disagree with you and not have any basis in reality for it. I had to resist having a knee-jerk reaction, which is what so many others seem to do here too frequently. So, I still hold out hope we can win big in Wisconsin.

[Armstead]

3. I hoped At the time I'd be proven wrong...But Experience told me otherwise

I just hope this is a turning point, and future experience will make optimism seem more realistic

[tavalon]

4. Yeah, we're all hoping

I just didn't see any way that backing down was going to be viable. Stay at it or die. That will be the question for many of us in the near future. May we show the same stick-to-it-eveness that they have shown.

[vaberella]

5. The favoritism of the Democratic leadership is at one of it's highest in Wisconsin.

Which would say... that the people of Wisconsin who are fighting this at the grassroots level know where the democratic leadership's loyalty lies and appreciate that he is not trying to take over the public eye by thrusting himself into the issue and allowing them to do the work.

Actually other people from Wisconsin who are on DU have said that no one wants the democratic leadership there and they support his back up and they support the actions of the other Dems. Which would say...what you want is actually not the best course of action and never was.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. National Leadership is not one man. This is an entire Party.

There is the Chairman, who could be voicing his point of view, Kaine never hesitates to chime in against equality in civil rights, he rushes in and shouts 'one man, one woman'. Yet on Wisconsin, Kaine has said nary a word.
There are the various heads of departments, old DuBois at the Faith Based Office has not said a word. What has our Sec of Labor had to say? Anything?
When you say 'other people from Wisconsin' this implies you are from Wisconsin. Why do you say 'other people from Wisconsin'? Tell us. Have you ever even been to Wisconsin? I doubt it very much.

[vaberella]

16. Interesting you should say that...

Most people seem to think Democratic Leadership = President Obama. I've seen this all over DU. Now it's Kaine. I have no words on Kaine, since I never waste my time with the man. All I know is that Obama supports the movement and he sent out his people to help with organizing some rallies.

I say "other people from Wisconsin" in reference to DU posters from Wisconsin. There has been a few of them who have posted that they appreciate that Obama is NOT in Wisconsin. I never made any reference to myself.

[sybylla]

39. It's not true that "...Obama sent out his people to help..."

First, OFA is now part of the DNC, though no one seems to understand what that means.

Second, there were OFA organizations on the ground long before Obama "sent" anyone. These groups are autonomous and take on whatever issues they choose.

Third, the fact that several OFA chapters had to be begged and persuaded to get involved in the early days says that there was nothing that came down from on high to direct these local OFA organizations.

I say this as a Wisconsin OFA activist with contacts across the state of Wisconsin.

Sorry, but as much as I'd like to think that behind the scenes Obama cares, whatever OFA is doing or isn't doing has nothing to do with it.

I'm still waiting for proof, just like everyone else.

[Shiver]

20. The Secretary of Labor has weighed in.

Here's what Hilda Solis has had to say:

"The fight is on!" Solis told a cheering crowd at the Democratic National Committee's winter meeting over the weekend in Washington. Giving her support to "our brothers and sisters in public employee unions," Solis pledged aid to unionized workers who are "under assault" in Wisconsin and elsewhere.

Full story here. A little Googling can find you more more.

Not sure about the others, and I don't really care. As someone who has lived in Wisconsin all his life, I can back up what vaberella has said. The support that has been given is much appreciated, from Democrats across the country and at every level of government, but we don't need the leadership here. We have the public opinion on side, and the state Democratic leadership clearly on our side. I was going to give a link to quotes from them, but really, just go their website - you can't miss what they're saying.

[Hippo_Tron]

66. You do realize that all of those people (including Kaine) serve at the pleasure of the President

[boomerbust]

6. About this time next year

Obama will show up here in Wisconsin with his "Change you can believe in" bullshit and he might get a different response this time.

[BklnDem75]

15. Incumbents don't run on change, they run on record

Despite your hopes, Obama's reception will be positive as always.

[boomerbust]

19. Not my hopes at all

Maybe Obama will learn a lesson from Wisconsin. When you are being attacked show a little spine and fight back, like the great people of Wisconsin are.

[BklnDem75]

22. That's the perception of the very few

I prefer a thinker in office instead of a guy cracking heads and taking names. A person that gets things done instead of someone that makes a lot of noise and looks tough while accomplishing nothing.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Badfish]

7. For me , it was obvious which was this was gonna play out...

weeks ago. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x481824

[Badfish]

8. The problem with your knee jerk post is ...

there are usually 10 or 20 issues being discussed in threads at any time.

And when people knee jerk every issue , we end up with 20 threads with a bunch of knee jerk BS posted in them , happens everyday.

[Armstead]

10. Like your knee jerk response?

[Badfish]

11. I took time to read the situation.

[Armstead]

12. And of course, I disagreed so therefore I have no knowledge

That's a knee jerk response. "I see it differently, so therefore you are uninformed."

I already said in my OP that my earlier view was incorrect. As they've said in Wisconsin, "Why not just accept 'yes' as an answer?"

[Badfish]

26. you were already casting blame on Democrats.

you could have posted an opinion without saying the issue was over and we lost, and it's our fault.

[Armstead]

31. My instinct based on the situaiton at the time was wrong.

What part of the phrase "I was wrong" is too difficult for you to understand?

As for the national Democratic leadership, I still believe they are way too passive too often. (Not all but enough to keep the institution from really fighting for principles when it matters.)

[bigmonkey]

37. The criticism is about your way of stating your opinion, not your opinion.

I'm a little tired of people who think that things will go badly saying not only that they think it will go badly, but that:

"Let's be realistic. This will go badly, and we have only ourselves to blame. The American people are just sheep, and the Republicans have become expert shearers. Don't expect anything to change soon. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. I just hope there's a bottom in sight."

or some such. Just state your opinion, and the reasons. The hyperbolic rhetoric may encourage some small percentage of the readers, perhaps someone who has the same personality makeup as the author, but I contend that far more people will be discouraged and made less effective by being hammered by that rhetorical style.

Note carefully, I am not criticizing the opinion.

[Armstead]

40. You are certainly entitled to your opinion about my way of expressing my opinion

But I am also entitled to express my opinion in the way that is most suited to me. :)

Sometimes when I debate politics with people in person, I get a bit, er, overly forceful. Maybe a better word is passionate when my hot-button is hit. (Though I'm also a fairly mild-mannered guy in most circumstances.)...I sometimes overstate to make a point. Or oversimplify to get down to brass tacks.

In any case, like most of us here, our real-world personalities are going to be reflected in our posts here.

Also, this is a discussion board. Again, like most people here, sometimes it serves as a place to vent in response to what's going on. That's the nature of a message board. This is a community, not a CSPAN panel discussion. Nor are all posts a college thesis. To be honest, if it were not for the shoot from the hip posts from most everyone here, this would be a very empty discussion board.

Anyhow, in my original post, I stated what the situation looked like to me at the time. It wasn't just a knee jerk uninformed statement. It was based on following that particular story as it was developing -- coupled with a background of decades of seeing the pattern of what has happened in similar situations and issues before. (And the underlying frustration with that.)....I turned out to be wrong (probably) and I retracted it.

I might also point out that over the years I have also posted very detailed and researched posts on various subjects. The response those usually get, in contrast to the ones that are pithier? Nada. The long erudite posts will generally sink like a stone here.

Sure, I could have taken the time to write an extremely long and detailed post to back up my opinion and belief at what would happen. But I didn't have the time and for the reasons above, I didn't.

[bigmonkey]

46. If your way of expressing your opinion is counter-productive to your own goals

it's not very helpful. Even to you. Except as mere "free expression". Politics is about convincing people.

[Armstead]

48. Well some think I'm full of shit...Others agree with my points often

[bigmonkey]

60. How you say what you say has effects that spread beyond participants in the argument.

Anyone's mode of expression has a social effect, as well as force in argument. My point is that the social effect is likely to be so negative that it drowns out the "convincing".

[Armstead]

61. I wish it did.....But this is just a message/discussion board.

And despite what you say about my style (and I hope you read all of my previous post) it does not turn off everyone, and a lot of people say "hear,hear" to them.

(That sounds arrogant, but I am merely saying that not everyone responds to posts like mine negatively and many like the style.)

It's all a matter of personal taste. Variety is the spice of life. Viva la differance. That's what makes horse racing (and DU)....etc.

[bigmonkey]

62. I didn't say it turns off everyone.

My contention is that it discourages more people than it encourages, hence is counterproductive. Your response seems to be "But I get compliments".

I definitely don't think it's just a matter of taste. The way anyone communicates affects others, both those addressed and those witnessing the communication. To restrict your evaluation of the effect of your comments to those that respond contributes to the problem. It substitutes reward-seeking for a wider positive effect.

[Armstead]

64. Um, there's an easy answer

If you don't like my style don't read my posts.

If you realllllly don't like my style there is an Ignore feature on DU.

As I said above, this is a discussion board. People discuss and express in many different ways. (And as individuals we each have different styles at different times too.)

[bigmonkey]

65. You still don't get it.

I'm not trying to get you to go away, or clam up. I'm trying to get you to change your mind. Discussion, and its form, is social - not just some sort of game. Ostensibly, we're all here trying to find methods and means to improve the country, not just chat.

[WolfoftheWild]

28. you ask for things that you aren't willing to give when the situation is reversed.

[Armstead]

29. No I don't like to play idiot games

I've been a member of DU since early in the dark days of the Bush administration.

There have often been times when I have engaged in constructive and civil and enjoyable and informative debates here with people with whom I have disagreed on a subject -- sometimes very much. It's useful because it does cause both parties to reexamine (and further research) the basis of their positions...It has also caused me to rethink things on occasion.

There are important differences between that kind of debate and the silly game of "Show me your facts in detail so I can disagree with you on a blanket basis."

1) People who are actually interested in a useful exchange generally don't open with personal insults or belligerence, even if they disagree very much with a post.

2) They also usually explain why they believe a post is wrong based on their own facts and/or interpretations on a spacific basis.

3) They are generally willing to acknowledge where there are areas of agreement or the weakness in their own position.

4)Their purpose is to actually discuss things with the idea of exchanging information and opinions -- They don't just want to put up a wall of "You're wronmg. Nyah, nyah."

[PassingFair]

13. I knew it was won last week, when I overheard one of my freeper customers...

talking to another freeper over the phone.
My freeper's brother in-law makes frequent
appearances on Glenn Beck's show, and they
were talking about how they were going to
"lose in Wisconsin".

It worried me a little, because they implied
that they could "win" in other places....

I hope the rest of the mid-west is as pro-active
as Wisconsin!

[vaberella]

17. I think they will be. n/t

[PassingFair]

18. I *ucking HOPE so...the dems in my state couldn't be bothered ...

to VOTE in our gubernatorial election.

Our new Gov. is cagier than Walker and won't
take it to the public head-on like that.

He'll be abetted by DLC bullshit artists
in Lansing.

[Armstead]

32. Is your governor really trying to tax the poor and ease taxes on corporations?

That's how Rachael Maddow characterized his plans last night. If so.....Jeeze.

[PassingFair]

35. "He robs from the poor and gives to the rich....."

He IS a republican, isn't he?
What ELSE would he do.

Although he only wants certain TYPES
of businesses to get the breaks.

If you work for one of those liberal
Hollywood style movie-makin businesses,
you're SOL.

[PassingFair]

14. In the case of Wisconsin...

I am glad that the dems took the stealthy route...

I would FAR rather have the protest appear to be
POPULIST and of and for the PEOPLE (which it WAS)
than spun by the right as a political stunt.

[Greybnk48]

21. We are going to win in WI Armstead

and I think the liberal, pro-people movement will roll across the country. Big Ed Schultz started calling us "The People's Party" in the last day or so and I think this idea is resonating with more than Democrats.

[wiggs]

23. Most likely, the people will lose on a compromise that

just takes away some of the union rights, along with reductions in compensation. It will be a compromise and both sides will declare victory. But based on what I read in the released emails, there will be further restrictions on unions.

Walker won't get 100% of what he wanted, so I suppose it's better than if the WI 14 didn't flee. But this has been a gop strategy for a while now....swing wildly to the right, ask for the moon and pull the center/compromise rightward so that they get what was originally hoped for anyway. That's the point of the House's spending bill that cuts 70 billion...dems will fight tooth and nail and restore funding for some of the most critical programs and will agree to cut just merely important programs. Instead of causing suffering for 10 million people, only 5 million will be hurt. Victory for dems?

[leftynyc]

24. This had nothing to do with

getting 5 million when you asked for 10. Walker wanted to bust the union and it looks like he's going to lose. When both sides can declare victory. something actually got done.

[Greybnk48]

33. Exactly. Walker loses here on union busting,

which was the cake that the other frosting in his slimy budget is on. We can deal with his other shit in the budget, but busting the unions here would have been the beginning of the end for worker's rights--AND HE'S ALREADY LOST!!!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: (shouting with glee, not anger!)

[Jakes Progress]

25. It may yet become a skirmish victory. But he neocon

war on the people continues in other states. Even if they lose completely now, they will just sit back and wait until we are complacent again. They have been doing this since reagan. We beat them back and start celebrating. We relax and think we need to be nicey nice with everyone. We elect a couple of corporatist centrists and get this mess all over.

You would have thought that 8 years with w would have made everyone aware. But we just danced and celebrated when we "won" the last election. The right only feinted left.

We will not have our country safe until we learn to put people in office who believe in the people and not the corporations and the wealthy.

So a guarded hooray for now. But keep you coals stoked and your powder dry. And don't let the guards down off the watchtowers. The attack will come again.

[Armstead]

30. I agree with that

The CONservatives are in permanent combat mode. They will never give up, and they don't get complacent and assume they have won when they have a temporary victory, or give upo and give in when they lose a round.

We need to at least emulate that realization that it is ongoing, and always will be.

[Greybnk48]

34. As someone who has watched this for decades,

you speak the truth and people had better listen.

[TuxedoKat]

27. I figured they were winning

when the mainstream media stopped heaping praise on Walker and stopped talking about him much; especially the MJ crew. Of course they were all predicting a win for Walker but I don't they will admit they were wrong now.

[mkultra]

36. no problem, we dont put any value on your predictions anyway

[Armstead]

41. Good...You are wise not to

[Jakes Progress]

43. problem,

The complacent center is a rw tool.

[tsuki]

38. I want to see the tractor parade. nt

[Sheepshank]

42. I'm, not in WI, but a co-worker hails from there.

She was involved in local Madison politics. She says that even the Reps are sick of Walker...the recall is a very possible reality...

[NorthCarolina]

44. Better buy a Lottery Ticket. as it looks like you WERE right

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4762916

[Armstead]

49. Yeah, unfortunately

[PatSeg]

50. I'm so sorry

Sometimes it truly sucks to be right. Can't believe they did this.

[louslobbs]

45. They came for the Jews and I was not a Jew.....They came for the Unions and ....................

Awoke a sleeping giant.
Lou

[Armstead]

47. Then again....Fucking Republicans!!!!!!!

[wiggs]

51. When it's the people vs big money...the people will lose. Someone with a lot

of time should go back through the years and count how many times posts started off with 'the worm has turned' or 'there's change in the air' or similar.

[Armstead]

53. Right now I'm really angry that I was originally right

[ProSense]

54. I can't wait

for the next "I was wrong" thread.

[Armstead]

55. Believe it or not, I was sincere

But I don't expect you to ever believe that

[Jakes Progress]

56. Sincerity not spoken here. Only Snarkish.

There is a group here that has no idea how to admit error. You are a valued poster and your post was true at its core.

[ProSense]

57. Not questioning your sincerity, but

it isn't even clear that what Walker did is legal. This issue could drag out for months. It could also culminate with a recall of Walker...a year from now.

Success will require being in it for the long haul.

[Armstead]

58. I hope I will be wrong again on this

And I hope to be eating crow when Walker is evicted prematurely from his job and escorted out my a cadre of unionized teachers.

[Arkana]

59. Labor lost the battle, but they will win the war.

Wisconsin will stop functioning now. Walker has poked the hornets' nest too many times.

I hope it was worth it, you greedy, elitist scumfucks--because you will never, ever win another election in Wisconsin.

[Jakes Progress]

63. Rumors of your error have been greatly exaggerated.