Don't you admire the Republican's persistence when they're in power?

[LeftyAndProud60]

They really do push the country further and further to the right. Meanwhile Dems get in and help them push things to the right. Amazing.

[spanone]

1. i don't admire slimy, backhanded, lying, vile politics.

but i know what you mean.

[DCBob]

42. +1

Its like admiring the persistence of a serial killer. Sick.

[Dave From Canada]

2. How is this any different than reconciliation used for health care reform?

[jenmito]

3. You're using a RW talking point. They did NOT use reconciliation for HCR. n/t

[Dave From Canada]

5. I'm pretty sure they did.

[jenmito]

8. No. They passed it with 60 votes. n/t

[Dave From Canada]

9. I don't think so. Unless I'm just reading something from a previous version of the bill.

After defeating dozens of Republican amendments designed to upset the deal, the Senate approved the reconciliation bill 56-43. At 2:16 p.m., Vice President Joe Biden, in his role as President of the Senate, declared "The bill is passed."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-03-25/news/27060046_1_dozens-of-republican-amendments-health-care-health-insurance

[jenmito]

12. The reconciliation bill was used after the bill passed with 60 votes for a few fixes of the already-

passed bill.

[Dave From Canada]

13. So they did use reconcilliation. I believe they promised the house they would to make changes,

because the house wouldn't have passed it otherwise.

[ProSense]

16. The next question is how

is expanding coverage to more Americans (given that health care is a right) similar to taking away workers' rights?

I've heard the RW try to argue that they won the election and are only doing what they campaigned on. That's pretty much a lie because even some Republican voters are turned off by their actions.

Same thing is happening in Ohio.

[jenmito]

17. They didn't use it to pass the bill. They used it for some changes after

the bill was signed into law.

[karynnj]

56. True - but it is NOT TRUE to say that HCR passed under reconciliation

We had HCR as soon as the first bill was passed and signed.

This is significant as it means we did have a supermajority who backed the basic HCR.

[karynnj]

55. There were TWO HCR bills passed

The BIG bill was passed over a Republican filibuster in the Senate in December 2009, when we had 60 Democrats, That bill was then passed AS IS by the House and signed by the President.

A smaller bill tweaked provisions of the big bill and added a major bill to help pay for college. That bill passed under reconciliation.

The second bill met all the rules - put in place AFTER the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cut bills were passed under reconciliation.

[Pirate Smile]

14. Both Houses passed the Bill and then later made some changes which were allowed through

Reconciliation.

Congress couldn't have passed the insurance reforms through Reconciliation - and we didn't. They passed it the normal way, overcoming the filibuster and getting 60 votes on Christmas Eve in the Senate.

The House passed that same bill so it became law.

There were some changes which could be made by Reconciliation which were passed but what could go through that way was limited.

If the Democrats would have tried to pass ALL of their HCR by Reconciliation Including the Insurance Reforms like covering preexisting conditions, getting rid of annual & lifetime limits, etc. that would have violated the rules. But that wasn't what happened. HCR was passed by following all the laws and regulations of the House and Senate. That didn't happen in Wisconsin.

[ProSense]

10. Here is how it's different

Grassley Takes Credit For Medicare Provisions In Health Care Law That He Opposed

You know why? Answer: Democrats engaged Republicans every step of the way. The only similarity between the process to pass health care reform and what's going on in WI is that Republicans always end up acting like assholes.

[Dave From Canada]

15. I agree that Democrats engaged Republicans. But at the end of the day, they still used

reconcilliation. Not only that, but they demanded that the mandate in the bill wasn't a tax. But now in court challenges, they claiming that it definitely is a tax. Sorry, but I don't see any difference between the two parties.

[ProSense]

18. "Sorry, but I don't see any difference between the two parties."

You're trying to justify Walker by making a "Dems do it too" claim because they passed health care reform?

Unbelievable!

[BklnDem75]

43. After what happened last night, you're still calling Dems and pukes the same?

Don't you think it's time to drop that idiotic meme?

[Armstead]

21. Republicans also WIN and get wghat they want

[ProSense]

25. Republicans are

good at fooling people and trying to get them to give up.

As for health care, they sure are spending a lot of energy trying to kill something they allegedly wanted.

[Armstead]

28. They are....And we often do give up

The GOP couldn't have advanced their lies without a weak opponent who all too often goes along with them to some degree, either due to lack of conviction or because they have bought into the same corporate elite.

[ProSense]

30. Oh brother

"The GOP couldn't have advanced their lies without a weak opponent..."

What the hell does that mean? Harry Reid wasn't running against Ron Johnson. Voters need to get off their asses.

Maybe it would help to stop hyping the almighty GOP. Hell, it's a good thing the WI Dems didn't buy into that hype.

[Armstead]

34. Not hyping -- Recognizing the strength of the opponent

and recognizing the weaknesses of our side.

As much as I dislike what the Republicans are doing (on every front) I wish liberal/progressives had an equally strong and effective representation in the Democratic Party.

Step One is recognizing a problem, and then correcting it. Repeating the same mistakes over and over (mushy centrism) is not an effective strategy to counter the GOP.

[ProSense]

35. "Recognizing the strength of the opponent and recognizing the weaknesses of our side."

Yeah, like the repeal of health care...that failed. The House budget...that failed.

Even the Judge in the Florida ruling confused the hell out of himself and proved to be a clown.

You give the GOP too much credit.

"As much as I dislike what the Republicans are doing (on every front) I wish liberal/progressives had an equally strong and effective representation in the Democratic Party."

See what I mean? The 111th Congress was one of the most accomplished in history.

Frankly, the GOP isn't winning much these days. They're making a lot of bullying noises, but it's likely going to come back and bite them in the ass.

[Armstead]

39. Health care reform was a joke

Yes a few good things, but nothing that really goes to the core of the basic problems of access and affordability....We remain in bondage to private insurers and the markets they rig to their own benefit....Plus the mandate is nothing but a sop to the "marketplace." Insurance rates remain obscenely high, and they continue to get higher.

But I do hope you're correct in saying the bullying of the Republicans is going to bite them in the ass.....But national Democrats have to get a lot more forceful in pushing teeth in that direction.

[ProSense]

47. Actually, no

it was the damn impressive:

New health care law provisions that kicked in January 1

California and Vermont will make it even more so.

A bill that lays the foundation for significant progress on health care in this country is not a fucking joke.

[Armstead]

57. I was fired up last nite -- I should not have used the word "joke"

With all of the GOP crap coming down, I was feeling very pissed off (and frankly scared) about what they are doing to the country. And simultaneously pissed off and frustrated that -- as a political institution -- the national Democratic Party is not giving much back up to grassroots-level efforts to stop it.

Therefore i referred to it as a joke. That was inappropriate for several reasons -- including the fact that healthcare is not funny.

I don't have time to go into that right now, so let me restate in in a basic way.

In 2009 the Democrats (including President Obama) had a perfect opportunity to begin to implement a process to bring real meaningful reform. It could have been either a modest -- but clear and useful -- set of small, but meaningful, steps in that direction while aggressively promoting it to win over the public (which was ready for SOMETHING to address the obvious problems). It could have been bold, but straightforward steps, such as expanding Medicare to people in lower age groups who choose to pay a premium based on income.

Instead, they dithered, and tried to compromise to placate people who will never support any form of reform other than getting government out of health care completely and leaving us to the market. President Obama and the centrist leadership sat down with corporate insurers to hammer out backroom deals, but kept arems length from groups advocating for true progressive reforms.

And the bumbling, sell outs and lack of conviction, gave an opening to the Tea Parties/GOP/Corporatists to take over the message and make political hay out of the issue and poison the well against true health care reform.

To be clear, I also have to emphasize that (in my opinion, of course) this does NOT refer to all Democratic politicians. There were many who fought hard for truly meaningful reform in Congress. But the problem is -- in a nutshell -- they had to fighty as hard against their own Democratic Party party as they did against the GOP obstructionists...And, in the end, yet again, they were forced by the leadership to go along with a package that was so watered-down and compromised and baroque as to be meaningless.

That pattern, which has been endlessly repeated over recent history over the last three or four decades, is the core of our problems IMO, and it has to change -- especially now, as the GOP/Corporatist/Tea Party are once again flexing their muscles and advancing their own right-wing Conservative agenda.

[calimary]

36. Agreed.

They're good at advancing shitty ideas.

We're still pretty shitty at advancing good ideas.

[ProSense]

38. I disagree. Here's why:

They've been trying to kill most of these policies for decades.

Via Krugman:



As Senator Kerry said in a floor speech yesterday, they've decided to go after everything from an ideological position using the deficit as an excuse to try to kill programs they've opposed for years.

Remember, they had a Republican President and Congress for eight and six years, respectively. They could have done these things then. Bush failed to privatize Social Security. They were waiting for the right moment and scheming. They were recently empowered by apathy, short memories and a 2006 Koch strategy meeting.

Republicans have decided to go for broke.



Edited to clarify.

[emulatorloo]

11. Dave: They did not pass a bill in the Senate to 'reconcile" with the House

The idea of reconciliation is that you are Reconciling the House and Senate Versions of a bill.

In this case there was no SENATE BILL TO RECONCILE.

So basically they Misused the system. And I think it is illegal

[WolfoftheWild]

69. Dave from Repiglica?

[The_Commonist]

4. You're still on that whole Republican/Democrat thing, eh?

Jesus, when will people fucking learn?
There is one party in this country... the Corporate Party.

[NorthCarolina]

58. Bingo!!! nt

[jenmito]

6. No. They're gonna pay for this BIG time in '12. n/t

[Armstead]

22. I doubt it -- unless the national democratic leaders get off their asses

[hollowdweller]

27. The public will totally forget about it by 2012

In fact if they go back and wait to try to recall them and don't strike they've lost.

[WolfoftheWild]

70. you doubt everything. that's what you do. you doubt.

[Kdillard]

7. Well it helps when you have unity, are completely without care for your

country, ethics, shame and don't have your side doing a circular firing squad if they don't get everything that they want. They just get what they can and regroup until they get everything they want something our side has yet to learn. So I too admire them.

[Exultant Democracy]

19. It's called good cop bad cop, and we are getting played.

[ProSense]

20. No.

The President is handling collective bargaining issues at the federal level.

It's called Republicans are assholes, and obfuscation of that fact is allowing them to become assholes on steroids.

[Armstead]

24. More like Bad Cop/ Bumbling Ineffectiuve Cop

[Exultant Democracy]

31. The Harlem Globe Trotters and the Washington Generals.

[Canuckistanian]

23. They're motivated, all right

Usually by pure, naked greed. It's a wonderful incentive for paying attention to details and PLANNING.

[BzaDem]

26. I think the issue is with you saying Dems push things to the right, rather than the false statement

that they actually push things further to the right.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[babylonsister]

32. No, but it appears you admire rethugs. nt

[opihimoimoi]

33. Bull shit...our Dems are not helping the GOP...stop it

[ClarkUSA]

37. Sounds like you do, just as you said you always thought Romney would be President one day.

You posted that in a recent OP title, remember?

[BlueMTexpat]

40. I admire absolutely nothing about today's Republican Party. nt

[FrenchieCat]

41. When the fucked up corporate media is on one's side.....

anything is possible.

That's all that this is, and since you don't see it,
they've got you where they want you.

When you start feeling the fucked up shit they've done,
let me know how you feel then about pointing fingers,
and acting like this is a big ass game; it ain't.

[be_long]

44. are you out of your mind

that's like asking if we admire fascism, are you out of your mind.?

[craigmatic]

45. If power is a filthy bar rag then the republicans are broke alcoholics lapping up every drop they

can squeeze out.

[obamafourmore]

46. I admire the way they stick together

They had Bush's back for 8 years. Democrats kicked Obama in the back since day 1. That's the difference. We chose a great president and we worked hard to weaken him, they chose the worst president ever, and they stuck with him to the end.

[dionysus]

48. nope. i don't admire anything about republicans. neither should you.

[Vinca]

49. When Shrub wanted to do something, no matter how stupid it was, he did it.

If anyone objected, he pretty much told them to go fuck themselves. He was an idiot, but Democrats could take a lesson from him.

[ProSense]

50. And that's how he privatized Social Security and passed immigration reform

Oh wait...

"When Shrub wanted to do something, no matter how stupid it was, he did it."

Sounds like Walker. Bravo! Courage! Balls!!!

[treestar]

54. +1

So sick of that "argument." ANd Bush had 911 and used it industriously.

[Vinca]

67. Maybe Dems could learn a bit from Walker, as noxious as he is.

He might be standing for the wrong reasons, but he is standing. Dems fold if someone looks at them cross-eyed. (With the notable exception of the Wisconsin 14 who are the most inspirational Dems I've seen in decades.)

[BklnDem75]

53. He also had a party in lockstep

Do you admire mindless conformity?

[great white snark]

51. No, never.

I have never admired what they do or the tactics they use to get things done.

[treestar]

52. I expect admiration of their "courage" from the professional left

In WI, for instance, they voted as they wanted in light of polls showing voters disagreed. So they had the "courage" to do what is "right" and will lose the next election.

I'm not surprised at the OP. That is what the Professional Left encourages Democrats to do and in fact calls their own party "cowards" for not doing it.

It's not courageous, it's just ignoring the people who elected them.

[Armstead]

59. Your categorization of The Professional Left illustrates the problem

There is not much about the Republican ideology to admire. But at least they are smart enough to recognize that their base is their baser, and not some inner enemy.
You don't see a lot of GOP politicians or status quo moderates regularly castigating attacking the more ideological members of their own base, with terms like "the professional conservatives."

They may think groups like the Teabaggers are too extreme, and privately may disapprove, but instead of publicly insulting them they look for ways to satisfy them and keep them in the GOP tent. They even go so far as to incorporate them and their issues into the GOP agenda.

And they DON'T tell them "Take it or leave it because you have no where else to go." No they are smart enough to recognize that the Tea Party Base can influence elections, either through GOP primary challenges, third/party independent candidates, or by sitting it out and denying their votes.

The GOP is also cunning enough to take the basic principles of the Tea Partiers and incorporate it into their agenda in a way that \enables them to tywist enough independent "swing voters" their way.

But too many Democrats are openly dismissive and openly contemptuous of the liberal/progressive base. Therefore they help to stifle enthusiasm just enough to tip elections to Republicans AND allow the GOP/Corporate/Tea Party message to dominate in the public sphere.

[Auntie Bush]

60. If Obama had Walker's determination...we'd have single payer health insurance by now. nt

[Armstead]

61. We don't like it when used against us, but we don't learn to use their tactics against them

[ProSense]

62. Or

he'd never end the war in Afghanistan, close Gitmo, listen to the people, etc.

There is absolutely nothing admirable about Walker's determination.

[Auntie Bush]

63. No, there is nothing admiral about Walker's determination because

he resorts to the illegal, harmful, and disastrous to get what he wants.

[Jennicut]

64. Evil is never admirable.

Hitler was determined too, was he not? Aren't all the great dictators "determined"?

[AtomicKitten]

65. No, I don't. I'll leave the applause to the subversive types that get off on this stuff.

[Avant Guardian]

66. They aren't even in power

Yet they are allowed to control the agenda

[WolfoftheWild]

68. What you don't understand is that this kind of change has no permanence.

Repukes don't know how to build things that last.

[SkyDaddy7]

71. IT WILL BACKFIRE!

I honestly think the public will turn against them using this hardline "Its our way or the highway!" type rule!