Isn't it swell we have to debate what torture is?

[rug]

[Lucinda]

1. I've had the same thought recently.

Spiffy.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Autumn]

3. You would think we would be past that

by now. But it continues.

[villager]

4. They win when they have us asking the wrong questions...

And as your OP notes, DU, sadly, has become a repository of many "wrong questions" of late...

[ZombieHorde]

6. How should people determine which questions are wrong and which questions are not wrong? nt

[villager]

9. Well, one might start with questioning "official" truths...

...If one has the moxie to do so.

Otherwise, one is part of an unreasoning zombie horde!

[ZombieHorde]

10. I agree truths should be questioned, which is why I am OK with a debate on how prisoners should be

treated. I am OK with people debating where line is on the subject of torture.

[villager]

13. Well, you can be OK with debating torture. Me, I'm for ending it.

n/t

[ZombieHorde]

14. How can we end something we can't define? One person's version of torture could end, while

another person's version of torture could continue.

[villager]

18. Yes, well you just keep equivocating...

...and signing off on what the Executive Branch and Pentagon "define" for you...

[ZombieHorde]

20. Instead of replying to my reply's content, you invented fantasies about me.

Politically speaking, defining terms, such as torture, is extremely important. If people don't believe forced nudity is torture, you will have to use argumentation to convince them otherwise. Do you disagree?

[villager]

21. Well, people may be told what to "believe" but that doesn't mean it's not torture, I'm afraid

though yes, it's always easier to listen to the authorities, isn't it?

[ZombieHorde]

22. I agree automatic belief in what one is told, either by the US government or otherwise, is easier

than argumentation. I believe argumentation is worth the effort, and is vital to politics. In my opinion, debating what is torture and what is not torture is a debate the world should have.

[ZombieHorde]

5. Ideas should be challenged. How would we learn otherwise? nt

[villager]

8. Agreed. Letting the state -- the torturers -- define "torture" for us should always be challenged.

n/t

[ClarkUSA]

7. It's even more "swell" to have no proof of torture and yet keep insisting there is ad nauseum.

[Avant Guardian]

25. You must be the person the OP describes

You fit it to a tee

[BklnDem75]

27. Did the OP describe anyone?

[Mimosa]

11. When Bush did it it was torture.

DUH! Don't you get it?

[ClarkUSA]

12. Did what? Define "it".

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Avant Guardian]

24. United Nations Convention Against Torture

Article 1
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_Against_Torture

[BklnDem75]

28. How does that apply to Manning?

[Avant Guardian]

41. Read it

[BklnDem75]

45. Once again, how does that apply to Manning?

He's experiencing neither severe pain nor suffering physically or mentally.

[BklnDem75]

43. Dupe

[CakeGrrl]

17. Has this man been waterboarded and I missed hearing about it? n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

19. who did Bush make sleep naked

and why was nobody freaking out about it here? I seem to recall under Bush we were outraged about the waterboarding, sleep deprivation, electric shock, sexual attacks and all... you know... legitimate forms of torture rather than just being outraged that Gitmo prisoners were being tortured because they weren't getting fresh squeezed orange juice with their breakfast. Seems to me then we could distinguish what was more important to be outraged about.

Meanwhile there are still untold numbers of people in Gitmo being unquestionably tortured, permitted no attorney, held indefinitely without charge, their families not entitled to know they're there, etc. yet all the concern and outrage here is about a single soldier criminal made to sleep naked (that he could cover with his blanket) so he wouldn't kill himself as he said he could.

Yeah, that's a good time for a discussion about the definition of torture, which is not something I would have ever expected to become necessary here. Just goes to show that even long time DUer's can go flying off the common sense rails sometimes.

[Exilednight]

64. Is Bush still in office?

Last I heard, we had an election and our side won.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of people, including myself, crucified Bush when he was in office over how he handled prisoners and prisoner abuse under his watch. But many, including myself, feel betrayed because we elected someone who said "not on my watch". Yet, here we are on his watch and while some things have hopefully gotten better, others have never really been addressed.

It was almost laughable to learn that he asked the Pentagon to look into the treatment of Manning. It's like going to your bank and asking if they are the most secure bank in town - do you really think they are going to tell you something you don't want to hear?

[Igel]

16. The alternative is that anybody can make up a definition on his/her own.

And then unilaterally impose it on others.

I personally think that having to acknowledge the existence of pink bunny slippers is torture.

Are you going to disagree with me? What, you think we need to have a debate on what constitutes torture? How regressive.

Now I think that having to use punctuation is nothing less than torture So I guess Ill avoid using any Lets see how that works out won't we

Of course if you disagree with me it means that youre debating the meaning of torture Again that would be a revolting step to take since its perfectly obvious what torture is Not only is any debate ruled out but we could even say that we require having no debate

Thus the level of public debate descends even lower as the old means of stifling debate become new again

[rug]

23. The mention of punctuation in the same breath as torture illustrates the point.

When you lack a moral compass they will tell you which way to go.

[treestar]

36. +1 exactly what is going on here

All to make one guy a hero because they like what he did. It's not enough that he did it. They have to add on that he's a victim of "torture" or it's not enough drama.

[Azathoth]

26. Yes, isn't it swell how the hard Left likes to debase the word "torture" n/t

[rug]

31. Not as swell as how pragmatists easily let these violations slide.

[stevenleser]

67. Except they aren't violations. Those who love Manning and hate Obama WANT them to be n/t

[BklnDem75]

29. Isn't it?

I'm wondering when simply being detained will be called torture.

[rug]

32. But it isn't simple detention, now is it?

[BklnDem75]

37. Is it? I know it is for many other inmates

But for this particular one, things have different meanings. Revealing classified documents use to be bad, now it's good.

[rug]

40. For one thing, this "super max" treatment is used on convicted felons, not pretrial detainees.

And it shouldn't be used on them either.

For another thing, this case has all the earmarks of a political prosecution, along with the recently validated indefinite detention without trial.

[BklnDem75]

42. It's a marine corps brig

Do you have an example of how the other inmates are treated? And no, Don Siegelman was political prosecution. Manning is not even close.

[rug]

44. goverrned bu the U.S. Consitution.

"Semper fi" doesn't cut it.

[BklnDem75]

46. You still didn't answer my question

How are they treating Manning different than any other inmate at Quantico?

[rug]

47. Read this and you tell me.

http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/opinions/2008Term/07-0508.pdf

I don't know how anyone else is treated at Quantico. Do you?

[BklnDem75]

49. My question was pretty specific...

I asked about the current inmates and you jumped into the middle of the Bush era. :thumbsdown:

[rug]

50. I suspect PFC Manning is experiencing worse under his CiC than PFC Harris under his.

[BklnDem75]

52. Why? There's zero evidence of that.

[Travelman]

57. Blatantly false.

One, it's not "super max" treatment at all. Two, it's used on all sorts of pretrial detainees. Jared Loughner is receiving the exact same treatment at the federal pen in Arizona, for example.

Finally, there is no "indefinite detention without trial." Manning's own attorney requested a delay in the proceedings back in November. After that was granted, Manning got new charges in January. This is mid-March. His Article 32 hearing will happen in May or June, depending upon the judicial calendar. A year after arrest is pretty common for Article 32 hearings.



The Manning case is not something new. It's not something special, but for the fact that he seems to have set a record for the amount of classified stuff that he leaked for no particular reason other than his own personal grudge. Calling it a "political prosecution" does nothing other than cheapen that definition for real political prisoners around the world.

[rug]

58. You have a novel view of Article 13.

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART II > CHAPTER 47 > SUBCHAPTER II > § 813

§ 813. Art. 13. Punishment prohibited before trial

No person, while being held for trial, may be subjected to punishment or penalty other than arrest or confinement upon the charges pending against him, nor shall the arrest or confinement imposed upon him be any more rigorous than the circumstances require to insure his presence, but he may be subjected to minor punishment during that period for infractions of discipline.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/usc_sec_10_00000813----000-.html

http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/opinions/2005Term/05-0044.htm

[Travelman]

59. He's not being punished.

He's being held in pre-trial confinement to make sure that he shows up for court. Far from unusual.

[rug]

61. And he's naked so he won't be late to court.

[Travelman]

62. No, he's naked so he won't hang himself with his clothes.

Why on earth people here think that this is somehow unusual with prisoners who repeatedly threaten suicide is beyond me.

Should the jailers instead just go ahead and let him kill himself?

[rug]

63. Do you have access to his psych records? The other day we kept hearing his father said he's fine.

You all need to get your talking points straight.

[Travelman]

65. The hollow "medical records" canard just does not hold water

Plenty of people all over the world, and even in jail, manage to kill themselves without the OK of a psychiatrist.

The simple fact is that Manning has said, to the people who have a specific obligation to keep him from killing himself, that he contemplating suicide. There is absolutely no need for any medical records whatsoever for that to occur.



Those "talking points" you're talking about so dismissively? They're called "facts." Facts are how rational conclusions are made. Might want to try that some time.

[stevenleser]

68. And the military has always taken the most liberal view imaginable of that

All the people I knew who went to correctional custody (brig/stockade, it all means the same thing) were subjected to harsh treatment. Again, it wasnt to the level of torture, but it wasnt pleasant. That's the way it is in the military.

AND, Manning knew this. Everyone who enlists or commissions is fully briefed at how aggressive the military justice system is.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

30. Is Manning being subjected to conditions

different than any other military (or, for the sake of argument, receiving treatment different than any other Supermax prison inmate)? :shrug: Not to say that I agree with how most prisoners in our multitude of penal institutions in our country are normally treated on a daily basis but if what we are talking about in terms of Manning's treatment is normal procedure (i.e. every inmate would receive the same treatment) for where he is, what he did, and under the alleged circumstances (i.e. suicidal precautions), then I fail to see how we can designate what is happening to him as being *torture* even if we don't like it. So far, I'm not aware of any allegations of Manning being beaten, threatened with attack dogs, and/or waterboarded. I do think, however, since everybody's attention seems to be focused on Manning, that maybe it's good time that we, as a society, had a more open and honest discussion about how prison inmates are regularly treated in this country in general, as well as just how many people we should actually HAVE to incarcerate in the interest of public safety. States could probably save a big chunk of money simply by investing in probation officers and/or designing alternatives to incarceration for non-violent offenders IMHO.

[rug]

33. I agree with most of your post.

Thoughtful.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

34. Thanks

n/t

[killbotfactory]

38. +1

[treestar]

35. What's wrong with debating it?

Is a hangnail torture? There's a line to be drawn somewhere, isn't there?

Merely being locked up could be construed as "torture" if you want to do that, so every person accused of crime is "tortured" and so is every convicted prisoner. Let's not water down the term.

[tekisui]

39. Nice post, Yoo.

[treestar]

53. Stupid post on your part.

[tekisui]

54. LOL! Did you get it?

It was a good one!

:rofl:

[Vattel]

48. We have to make sure

that we can sleep well knowing that Obama is allowing a man not yet convicted of a crime to suffer treatment of a sort that often causes permanent psychological damage on the pretense that such treatment is necessary to prevent him from suicide. So let's make some fine distinctions, split some hairs--whatever is necessary to preserve our image of our leaders. (No doubt you detected a hint of sarcasm here.)

[BklnDem75]

60. And make crap up!

Oh... never mind. Already covered.

[Lucky Luciano]

51. ...and then when you get mad because someone is justifying torture,

they say, "See! You can't debate the facts! You resort to making ad hominem attacks instead of sticking to facts and intellect! That means you lost!"

True torturers deserve the ad hominem attacks! (I joke sometimes about wanting to smash my enemy's kneecaps, but I don't really mean it! Goes with my DU handle!)


There is no debate. Water boarding is absolutely torture. End of story. No debate...no justifications. Just torture.

[nolabels]

55. We are a un-civil society that pretends to be civil.

I never question the souls of pretenders (liars), i just question how big the hole becomes in their lives as they try to fill it with more lies.

That not a nuclear problem in Japan, it's just a little miscalculation in engineering :crazy:

[vaberella]

56. The Geneva Convention outlines a list of what torture is or is not.

And to get tot hat people debated and argued over it. So give me a break.

[stevenleser]

66. It's the fault of those in the last 10 years who have tried to move the goalposts in two directions

Repugs tried to move the goalposts so that fewer things were called torture and those who want to paint Manning as the victim and generally find fault with Obama are trying to get more things included.

[boppers]

69. We "have to"?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3Atorture