Obama's blunder: Libyans " very angry that no action is being taken against Gadhafi's weaponry."

[Distant Observer]

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/16/134588581/libyan-forces-shell-rebels-in-east-west


Why did Obama get dragged into ineffective posturing against Gaddafi? His bully statements about
"Gaddafi must step down" and "tightening the noose" just make him look weak now that it is clear that
the US can't justify getting into this fight. Obama could have given a moral rebuke without pretending to
be able to tell Gaddafi what to do. IT'S A REAL SHAME.

Not surprising that the anti-Gaddafi rebels now blame the West for goading them into a civil war when
they are not going to help.

Quote:

As Gadhafi's forces gained momentum, the rebels lashed out at the West for failing to come to their aid.

"People are fed up. They are waiting impatiently for an international move," said Saadoun al-Misrati, a rebel spokesman in the city of Misrata, the last rebel-held city in the west, which came under heavy shelling Wednesday.

"What Gadhafi is doing, he is exploiting delays by international community. People are very angry that no action is being taken against Gadhafi's weaponry."

These poor rebels are paying for western bravado and anti-Gaddafi hubris with their lives.

[AngryAmish]

1. Thereby ensuring, no matter who wins, Libyan leadership will be anti-US

[Fearless]

34. +1

[meow mix]

2. big add for the failure list nt

[tabatha]

3. But I remember sign after sign telling the West to keep out.

And it is not Obama, it is the Chinese that is holding up the NFZ.

Sounds to me like the NPR neocons are bashing obama.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Distant Observer]

6. He forgot the "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" proverb. He was basically

goaded into taking a position. The statement he read about "Gaddafi must go" was typical
US bulling bluster.

I was not necessary, and without any decisive action behind it, does more harm that good.

[robcon]

7. The president has been invisible on Libya. He shoudl be ashamed of himself.

We needed leadership. We didn't get it. It may be too late.

[global1]

8. Unfortunately - Lack Of Any Action In Libya Will Embolden Other Dictators In Other.....

countries to do the same as Ghaddafi and this will put an end to any push for democracy in the MidEast.

[vaberella]

13. What are you fuckin' talking about?! We have NOTHING to do with Libya.

That's all Europe. All we had in Libya was our citizens, they've moved out. End of story.

[Distant Observer]

17. Too late for WHAT?? ALL GADDAFI'S ACTIONS ARE UNDER A MICROSCOPE

So far there has been nothing out of the ordinary for a civil war in North Africa that would demand US involvement.

Gaddafi is no more a dictator that many of those potentates we support in the region.

[treestar]

25. We need leadership on Libya?

Lead us into the battle or what?

:wtf:

[CakeGrrl]

27. Is this a sarcasm post?

If so, apologies.

If not - what the hell is there to LEAD on Libya? An collective U.S. opinion? What role does the U.S. have in what's going on there?

[Arkana]

31. Yeah, he should have put on a flightsuit

and stuffed a sock in his underpants and strutted around on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln and declared that we're gonna SMOKE 'EM OUT and GIT 'EM DEAD 'R ALIVE!

[FrenchieCat]

52. Really?

[ProSense]

9. Clinton Meets in Paris With Libyan Rebel Leader

Clinton Meets in Paris With Libyan Rebel Leader

PARIS — Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton met late Monday with a leader of Libya’s increasingly beleaguered opposition, but did so privately and without a public statement.

The meeting reflected the Obama administration’s struggle over how much support it would, or could, provide to the rebels seeking to overthrow Libya’s leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.

Mrs. Clinton met the opposition leader, Mahmoud Jibril, at her hotel here after attending a dinner with foreign ministers of the countries of the Group of 8, who discussed ways to increase pressure on Colonel Qaddafi’s government, including imposing a no-flight zone over Libyan territory. Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Jibril met for 45 minutes but did not appear publicly out of concern for his security, an aide said.

Although aides to Mrs. Clinton said the foreign ministers shared a sense of urgency, they announced no new actions or proposals.

The Arab League called over the weekend for action to halt Libyan airstrikes — without saying explicitly which countries would enforce it — but a senior administration official said early Tuesday that the Group of 8 ministers “wanted further clarification of what it meant.”

<...>

US slaps sanctions on Libya minister, 16 companies

No one wants a military intervention and arming rebels has its downside. Remember the Taliban?

[BklnDem75]

11. Oh snap! Outrage slapped down once again!

Damn these facts! Damn them to hell!

[vaberella]

14. It needs it's own thread...Prosense. You know how DU works. n/t

[CakeGrrl]

28. Thanks again, ProSense. The detractors are on autopilot, it seems. n/t

[tekisui]

63. But arming rebels isn't off the table. It will likely happen, even.

[Scottybeamer70]

10. because Israel

supports the dictator.........We're not about to go against
the wishes of Israel...........never have........never will

[leftynyc]

18. Bullshit

Find me a link that exposes a cozy relationship between Israel and Libya. You anti-Israel people never give up this crap.

[Distant Observer]

19. Where do you get that from. NO ONE SUPPORTS GADDAFI. He has pissed off

every side with his rantings against, Israel, the West, the Sheikdoms and Kingdoms etc

[mkultra]

20. .

[dionysus]

23. cough chavez cough

[uponit7771]

12. THEN THESE BASTARDS WOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT US GOING INTO ANOTHER WAR!!!

[vaberella]

15. Obama will never win, never. n/t

[rug]

16. What a silly thing to complain about.

[Pirate Smile]

26. Are you kidding? You forgot your sarcasm tag.

[mkultra]

21. yes, we dont need another "World Police" war

[Distant Observer]

22. I am not suggesting US military involvement. JUST LESS TOUGH TALK

when it was obvious that we should not get militarily involved.

I was simply saying that Obama has unnecessarily put US prestige on the line by joining
the "Gaddafi must go" choir. US could have maintained opposition to the violence on all sides
without getting involved.

[Arkana]

32. Is Obama wrong?

If he had done what you said there'd be people here denouncing him for sounding mealy-mouthed on Libya by not taking the rebels' side.

[renegade000]

61. Obama isn't talking tough enough against Mubarak! n/t

[AtomicKitten]

29. and therein lies the rub

[Capn Sunshine]

43. These bastards here?

I suspect you're right.

[FrenchieCat]

53. You called it accurately.

[treestar]

24. They can't blame us for goading them into a civil war

It's their responsibility.

Geez, bunch of idiots. How do they expect us to help them if they're going to trash us?

[Arkana]

30. And once again Obama is blamed for something he has no control over.

We're not sending the military in. It's not going to happen.

[Moral_Imagination]

33. Do these rebels actually ever fight?

Also i never actually see a Libyan plane bombing anything... Just some guy on a pickup truck shooting in the air and shouting 'we need a no-fly zone'. If they are truly outgunned they need to be conducting a guerrilla war on the government.

[ClarkUSA]

35. Pres. Obama is supposed to win their fight for them? Much to Al-Qaeda's delight, no doubt.

Fuck that.

[tblue37]

36. Bush 1 did this in Iraq after the first Gulf War.

Rebels were encouraged to fight, then not given any sort of support.

[Bad Thoughts]

59. deleted

deleted

[renegade000]

62. Yes, they were massacred with helicopter gunships

and armor. Which the no-fly zone and no-drive zone are mandated to defend against...

This is not the same situation. We never encouraged the Libyans to revolt to begin with, and we've already saved them from being massacred by air and tank attacks.

[woolldog]

37. Nobody goaded the rebels into anything.

If I remember correctly, Obama was criticized for taking a long time to say anything.

He waited until our people were out of Libya and only then said Q must step down. So their rebellion was well under way Obama opined on it one way or the other and didn't rely in any way on any assurances from Obama.

It's sophistry in the extreme to blame him for their situation.

If Obama had rushed in militarily and imposed a no fly zone, America would be criticized in the Arab world for that. When America does nothing, America is criticized for that too. No win situation with the Arab world, which is why it's best to just stay out of there to begin with.

Arabs wanted the US to step meddling in Middle Eastern affairs; they are getting their wish.

[Igel]

39. It does two things.

It dodges blame. "I'm not responsible. So if I lose, it's not my fault and I can't be held accountable."

It assigns blame. "You're responsible. So if I lose, it's all your fault and you have to be held accountable."

True, it does it at the level of words and culture-specific perceptions. For most people, esp. those involved in politics, that's all that really matters.

However, it also does a third thing, and if you know educated Americans you'd know it probably works. Unable to actually think things through and deny blame of a moral nature--many don't want to be held accountable for any of the picayune, trivial things we actually do, but love to accept responsibility for huge, large issues like world peace or famines--if they say we've goaded them and we're responsible, a lot of us will promptly say, "Yes, you're *so* right."

[Bluerthanblue]

42. SOS Clinton said this very well today in an interview with NPR-

she laid the OP's assertion to rest quite well imo-

I exerpted it above, but here's a link to the interview:

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/17/134615073/Hillary-Clinton-Interview

:hi:

She was excellent imo.

[Imagevision]

38. The fact gadaffi brought down the Lockerbee jey with Americans on it is reason to do him...

[babylonsister]

40. Ugh. How about other countries? Obama's blunder? Do you

think another war is a good thing for the US?

[Capn Sunshine]

44. no, what's important is that he got to post "Obama's Blunder"

and a bunch of axe grinders will rec it onto the front page.
This monkey cage gets so much poo flung against the walls it looks like a relief map.

[Bluerthanblue]

41. guess you missed NPR today where SOS Clinton

responds to the question of whether it was too late for us to get involved with military action in Egypt by saying:

Clinton Says U.S. Influence In Egypt Will Change
March 17, 2011


(SOS Clinton replies; )
I don't think so. I don't want to put a timeframe on what is likely to happen in Libya. I'm well aware that Gadhafi is moving against the rebel stronghold in Benghazi. I have received different estimates as to how long it will take him to do what he intends to do, to try to crush the rebellion.

But I think it's important to note that there is intensive negotiation going on in New York as we speak to try to obtain authorization from the Security Council that will provide a series of potential actions, including a no-fly zone that could be taken. And I think that is the appropriate venue. There should not have been unilateral action by any country. When the Arab League made its decision on Saturday, that changed a lot of people's assessment about what could and should be done. And part of what is being discussed in New York is how much leadership and participation can be expected from the Arab states.

(Interviewer Inskeep says; )
I invited questions from our listeners before this interview. And one question came in from a man named Jim Voorhies from Nashville, Tennessee, who asked about uprisings through the Arab world such as Libya, where there is a great resistance or oppression by the government. And he asks: How long will we fail to help?

(SOS Clinton replies; )
Well, Steve, that is not a question that should be only directed to the United States, with all due respect to your listener. I think that President Obama has been absolutely right in being clear in saying that Gadhafi has lost the legitimacy to govern. But as you know very well, there is a vigorous debate by people of good faith as to whether any particular action is called for, or would be effective.

But there is very little debate that the Security Council, in its Resolution 1970, did not authorize any no-fly zone, any delivery of arms, or any other kind of assistance, other than humanitarian assistance. Now, we are in a different environment where enough countries have watched what was happening. The Arab League has taken its stand. And now, countries that said flat out they were opposed, they would veto, they would never support, are reconsidering.

It's worth listening to the entire interview here:
http://www.npr.org/2011/03/17/134615073/Hillary-Clinton-Interview

[Arkana]

45. It's not "Obama's blunder".

Sorry, Libya, but we're not going to be the world police anymore.

Those same people would be the ones denouncing us for interfering if we went in with troops.

[craigmatic]

46. This seems like Obama's Bay of Pigs moment. JFK knew we should keep out of things like this.

Obama think it's going to be easy to defeat Ghadaffi but I don't think it's worth it. The rebels are already losing and they can't hold the ground they've taken. It's not our fault that they decided to rise up in arms agains their government. The Egyptians did this peacefully. This needs to be handled by the UN.

[FrenchieCat]

54. "This needs to be handled by the UN".....excellent idea.

[Dash87]

47. It's such bs. If we did go in, they would hate us for it.

The conclusion: They aren't worth American lives. Not even one. :(

[cottonseed]

48. Send Tanks, B-2 Bombers, Howitzers, and the USS Dennis Kucinich Peace Maker!

Our war machine is the best war machine.

[old mark]

49. Give it a few minutes till the missiles hit Ghadaffi's air bases and air defense system...

then they will all be happy. ;)

mark

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

51. Can you hear him now?

:shrug:

[AtomicKitten]

55. Of course, but now they're pissed he's doing something about it.

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

[FrenchieCat]

56. Yep......same song, same refrain, just a different melody.

[Avalux]

57. Sounds eerily similar to what McCain said on CNN this morning. n/t

[Life Long Dem]

58. This is where the rebels needed to come in at

I was hoping by now Qaddafi would be looking for an exit strategy from the rebels attack on him. If it's weapons they need, we should supply the rebels with weapons.

[SpartanDem]

60. Newt is that you?

Some mighty good flip floppin going here

THE MAGIC WAR
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x757026


African Union calls for Libyan Ceasefire and ELECTIONS: The Gov. Accepts, the Rebels Reject
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x761011