Buyers remorse in DU land!!!

[center rising]

A lot of DU posters want someone to run against Barack Obama in 2012 because his policies have angered progressives. They say it would actually make him stronger to face the Republican for the general election.

Far be it to criticize my fellow DU posters, but in my humble opinion, a challenge from the left to Obama would not strengthen him for 2012, but it would show what a weak incumbent he really is, and it would actually help the Republican challenger.

I voted for Hillary Clinton in the 2008 primary in my home state of Connecticut because I thought she was the better candidate, but now that Obama is president, like him or not, the prospect of any Republican becoming president in 2013 is so abhorrent to me, and 99.9% of DU'ers, that I don't even want to contemplate it.

When Ted Kennedy ran against Jimmy Carter in 1980, the voters saw that the Democrats were a fractured party. Ronald Reagan probably would have beaten Carter regardless of whether Carter ran alone or not. Carter was already a weak president, but I am convinced that Kennedy running against him, made Carter even weaker. No good can come about if Barack Obama is to face a primary challenger next year. I would love to know what actual good would come about if Obama did have a primary challenger!!!

Obama is certainly not done what we have expected him to do, and it's impossible for him to try to.
But considering the scary alternative that awaits us if he should lose next year, I think we have no choice but to support him in the end. Half of Congress is already in Republican hands, and there is a decent chance that the Republicans could actually retake Congress next year. If they do, it's even more imperative that Obama remain in office. You like what you see in Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, New Jersey and others states that Republicans control?? You want that on a national level?? I certainly don't!!

[Vanje]

1. Malaise

I can't even summon up the energy to explain myself.

[WiffenPoof]

53. "Malaise" is the right word...

...it seems to me that people are going through stages with regard to their feelings about Obama, It went from frustration to anger and now, with the energy out of the room...it is indeed "malaise."


-PLA

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Democrats have to stop moving far right

It's been going on for 18 years, and where has it got us?

The only way to stop it is to primary these people. They need to understand that poor governing has consequences.

[Mimosa]

6. Manny, agree with you 100% on this

Bill Clinton's policies were mainly a continuation of those of poppy Bush Very little changed. NAFTA, the war on drugs and many other policies remained the same.

[MissDeeds]

8. +1000

Agree completely. We cannot afford to give a pass to weak or ineffective leadership. Voters turned out en mass in 2008 for change and a departure from the destructive practices and policies of the previous administration, yet the country continues along many of the same paths. If Obama is not willing or able to change course, we need someone who is.

[Vanje]

10. I wish a Democrat would run. nt

[Skink]

3. A primary challenger could get the nomination.

and maybe a repug would run as an independent weakening Romney's chances.

[prolesunited]

4. Yeah and then hand the presidency to the GOP

but at least we will have our morals and principals intact as they parcel the U.S. off like they are doing in Michigan.

When the outside RW candidates won the primaries, like O'Donnell, they lost the seat they should have had.

[okieinpain]

13. yeah can we get Michael Dukakis to run again, i'm pretty sure

if he rode in that tank for a second time it would work. oh but wait du doesn't like people that likes the military.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

49. In fantasy land

Democrats love Obama. The poll numbers show it. There are those on the fringe, and republicans registered as Democrats that don't. But that's a very small number.

[alphafemale]

72. Sell that to Ted Kennedy. Which got us Reagan.

Carter would have uprighted the country after the Nixon/Ford nightmare he inherited in the second term.

He'd already freed the Iranian hostages. The Republicans delayed their release to coincide with Reagan's nomination...look...that...up.

I doubt Carter would have gut shanked unions and public education. He'd also have probably responded to AIDs as a public health crisus almost immediately.

That might have been our history but...no.


The Democratic base had to be weakened with a hissy fit.

And we got 8 years of Reagan and 4 years of Bush. And without the 4 years of Bush there is no way there'd of been 8 years of bush.

[hlthe2b]

5. I learned a long time ago that hitting ones own head with a shovel

is not very productive, even if you are convinced it will "cure" your headache. Obama may not be everything I'd hoped, but he's one hell of a lot better than anything on the opposing team. Primarying him will assure the opposition move in to the White House January, 2013.

[defendandprotect]

7. Hillary is part of DLC leadership ... did you intend to vote for a Koch candidate?

The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

If you knew this, why didn't you tell us?

If you didn't know it, pass it along!


:)




As for Ted Kennedy he was defeated by the right wing which raised questions re Chappaquiddick --

and as time goes by that even seems more and more having likely been engineered by the Nixon

administration and "The Plumbers."

If you want more info on that, let me know.

But, Democrats did not defeat Ted Kennedy --

And Carter, while he was largely defeated by right wing attacks internally on his administration --

especially with the October Surprise, also in his apparent weakness defeated himself in the eyes

of voters! Perhaps you also know that the desert hostage/rescue missions where two or more

helicopters went down were commanded by Ollie North -- and second in command was Secord?

The reason the helicopters went down was because they didn't have the appropriate gear attached

to keep SAND out of the engines!! Oops!!??

[center rising]

11. There is that old canard about Hillary and the DLC

No evidence Hillary is DLC. Bill is, but not Hillary. I think Hillary is certainly more liberal than Obama is.

[AtomicKitten]

19. Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

"There is that old canard about Hillary and the DLC ... No evidence Hillary is DLC."

Seriously?

Canard: (a) false or unfounded report or story; a fabricated report (b) a groundless rumor or belief.

Judges?

Link: http://www.dlc.org/ndol_sub.cfm?kaid=137&subid=900111
DLC | Press Release | July 25, 2005
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton Accepts Position as Chair of the DLC's 'American Dream Initiative'

For Immediate Release

COLUMBUS, OHIO --
DLC Chair Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack announced today, Monday July 25th, that Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) will Chair the American Dream Initiative, a special project of the Democratic Leadership Council. -- snip

Link: http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253992&kaid=137&subid=900111
DLC Leadership Team
Hillary Rodham Clinton

DLC | Blueprint Magazine | July 22, 2006
"Saving the American Dream"

By Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, Sen. Tom Carper, and Gov. Tom Vilsack.
-- snip

[blm]

29. How could anyone believe HRC is more liberal? Did they ignore her entire Senate career?

Can anyone who claims that she is a leader or a liberal name any important left issue that Hillary championed while she was in the Senate? Nope. She sure did lead the UNDERMINING of the left, though....along with her devoted cronies.

[defendandprotect]

42. Recall also that ....

at some point she was pushing the alleged search for "common ground on abortion" -- !!

[AtomicKitten]

43. I believed the illusion for a long time

until I was open to the unequivocal evidence to the contrary, and what a long strange trip it's been getting at the truth.

[defendandprotect]

45. Agree -- and a lot of masks seem to be coming off these days -- !!

[Silence Dogood]

62. Hillary supported the American Dream Project- yeah, this would have trashed America for sure

Democrats outline 'dream' project

Updated 7/25/2006

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) addresses the Democratic Leadership Council in Denver on Monday.
By Ed Andrieski, AP

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) addresses the Democratic Leadership Council in Denver on Monday.
By Chuck Raasch, GNS Political Writer

DENVER — As Democrats argue over the direction of their party, three likely presidential candidates in 2008 lined up Monday behind an "American Dream" initiative that includes college tax credits, "baby bonds" for newborns and expanded federal housing incentives aimed at police, firefighters, teachers and first-time home buyers.

The initiative was unveiled Monday at the annual meeting of the centrist Democratic Leadership Council by Democratic Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York with support from Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana and Iowa Gov. Tom Vilsack. All three may run for president in 2008.

"This American Dream initiative is a series of proposals to renew and strengthen the middle class and to help pave the way for the poor to work their way out of poverty," Clinton told about 375 local and state Democratic elected officials.

But Toby Chaudhuri, spokesman for the liberal Campaign for America's Future, said the proposals are modest attempts by a "timid" DLC to break out of a "duck and cover" strategy against the GOP.

Chaudhuri pointed out that as Clinton spoke, her husband, former President Bill Clinton, was in Connecticut stumping for embattled centrist Democratic Sen. Joe Lieberman, who faces a tough primary challenge from anti-Iraq war candidate Ned Lamont.

Vilsack said the DLC's new proposals can be a "bridge builder" and Bayh said the initiative is an opportunity for Democrats to reassert a historic claim.

"We take for granted that we are the party of the middle class, but too many middle class Americans wonder today," Bayh said.

The "American Dream Initiative" plan calls for:

• Higher education block grants — $150 billion over 10 years — to states, based in part on the number of students who attend and graduate from college. States would have to promise not to raise tuition higher than inflation.

• $3,000 college tuition tax credits to help families pay for college.

• A permanent "saver's credit" aimed at helping low-income families build equity by having the government match 50% of their savings, up to $2,000 a year.

• Greater disclosure and oversight of pension fund investments and greater disclosure of executive compensation in publicly held companies.

• "Pay-as-you-go" budgeting and tighter congressional caps on discretionary spending.

• $500 savings bonds for each of the 4 million children born annually in the United States and letting families with income under $75,000 augment the bonds by putting existing annual tax credits in them.

• Pooling small businesses into a single national insurance purchase pool to augment bargaining power and streamline administrative costs.

• Universal health care for children. The DLC says 9 million Americans under age 18 are uninsured.

• Setting up an independent commission to crack down on business subsidies, which Clinton, Vilsack and their compatriots believe save the government $250 billion over 10 years.

• Tax credits for employers that offer employee housing assistance programs, especially for public employees, and a $5,000 tax credit for first-time home buyers.

• Reducing by 100,000 the number of federal consultants and contractors, which the DLC estimates at 5 million. The group says that would save $50 billion over 10 years.

The DLC was closest to the Democratic Party in the 1990s, when then-President Bill Clinton pushed through several of its ideas — including free trade agreements and welfare reform — that were not always supported by other Democrats.

Liberal bloggers have attacked the DLC as antiquated and out of touch. Former Democratic National Chairman Terry McAuliffe was a member and attended DLC meetings, but current national party chairman Howard Dean has a more distant relationship with the group and did not attend this year's DLC gathering.

But DLC members insist ideas, not party politics, will win elections for Democrats — or they won't deserve to win.

"I think our party has become very good at trashing the other team (Republicans), but that is not a particularly good way to win an election and certainly not a good way to govern a country," said Andrew Romanoff, the Democratic majority leader of the Colorado House of Representatives.
______________________________

We're much better off with Obama. He really cares about the Middle Class and has done so much for my family already!

[Silence Dogood]

63. Oh, No- the defunk DLC has morphed into the Progressive Policy Institute

<b>Obama Moving to Center?</b>

<i>I guess he doesn't need us anymore.. we got him elected and he's thrown us under the bus."</i>

February 11, 2011

Chances are, the closure of the Democratic Leadership Council doesn’t mean much to most people. Though it had state chapters, it was a distinctly inside-the-Beltway phenomenon – an organization founded by moderate Democrats in 1985 to steer the party away from its left-wing image and philosophies, and make it more viable on the national stage.



But does the DLC’s demise tell us anything about the larger future of centrist politics? In the actual business of governing the country, after all, <b>President Obama is now all about a shift to the center, trying to compromise with the newly empowered Republicans where possible and dropping his populist rhetoric in favor of a more business-friendly approach.</b>

And there are plenty of other centrist Democratic organizations picking up the slack. The Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank that spun off from the DLC in 2009, is alive and well. So is the New Democrat Network and Third Way. The Center for American Progress, founded by Clinton White House alumnus John Podesta, also qualifies as centrist and has the benefit of close ties to the Obama White House. The last DLC-er who could make that boast – the group’s CEO, Bruce Reed – just left the organization to become Vice President Biden’s chief of staff. He had just completed a stint as executive director of Mr. Obama’s fiscal commission.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0208/Group-for-centrist-Democrats-runs-out-of-money.-Does-it-matter

[defendandprotect]

69. We have one right wing party and one radical right wing party ... which puts Obama on the right ...

if he is in the center of that --

I'd also say his team, his entire administraiton -- and his actions -- also put

him on the right.


From what I heard, a major motivation for Bill Clinton in creating DLC was his realizing

that there was so little left of unions that they wouldn't be able to finance his campaign

for president -- i.e., search for the corporate buck ensued!

Whatever anyone thought they were funding in '85, may have been overtaken by completely

different motives? But, in either case, DLC certainly did move the Dem Party to the

corporate right. And so did Bill Clinton.

Obama has been corporate since the day after the election -- and only corporate since then!

Don't think we need any more Clinton, Podesta, Biden stuff --

we need a Democratic Party which is actually working progressive/left for the public.

Not the few.

Biden? Biden isn't corporate? Biden has spent more than a year calling for Israel to attack

Iran. Biden says, "Israel would be JUSTIFIED in attack Iran" -- !!!! :nuke:

Biden? Biden of the infamous Clarence Thomas hearings where he guaranteed that Thomas would

reach the court by NOT presenting witnesses again him -- witnesses -- more than a half dozen

of them+ -- who worked at the EEOC with Thomas. Biden betrayed Prof. Anita Hill and her

lawyers -- mentors in closing the hearing at 4 am after spending 4 hours or more with a

Thomas witness where the sole intention was to smear her. After four hours that was clear.

After four hours, no Hill witnesses were presented -- and Biden closed the hearing!!

Sealing our fate in 2000 -- !!

[defendandprotect]

68. Did any of that happen?

As far as I'm aware, those who have moved the party to the right --

such as Bill Clinton and Obama -- are more interested in funding programs

THROUGH CORPORATIONS, thereby serving more to enrich corporations than to

improve things for citizens.

Can't speak to this DLC agenda, but I'm sure someone on the left -- the actual

left -- perhaps like Howard Dean or Ralph Nader would be able to tell us why the c

orporate-DLC may have been involved with stuff that looks on the surface to be

progressive.

[defendandprotect]

41. Thanks for the confirmation of Hillary leadership in DLC --

I hadn't looked at their website in years --

DLC also had other right wing connections --

[blm]

48. Hillary's also been involved in The Family since 1993. Its head was her spiritual mentor

and she talks about it in her book. Of course, she wrote that before she knew she'd have to fight the primary race on the left field.

[defendandprotect]

58. hmmmm.... The Family -- yikes!

[NorthCarolina]

59. There you go with facts and all.

Dream killer :evilgrin:

[defendandprotect]

39. Unfortunately, Hillary was part of DLC leadership --

as was clear from the website. Since they've allegedly folded or moved on to

a new identity I don't know about the website now.

Obama distanced himself from the DLC but sometime after the election related that

he is "New Dem."

[AtomicKitten]

40. Thanks for the links you posted.

Amazingly I did not know the Koch Bros were underwriting the DLC, but that certainly explains a lot.

[defendandprotect]

44. And thank you, too -- Came upon that at DU about two weeks ago ....

somehow the thread fell and only a few people saw it --

[Silence Dogood]

64. Who is the "family"? n/t

[BobbyBoring]

67. Something everyone should know about!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fellowship_%28Christian_organization%29

this will get you started

[me b zola]

74. Rachel has done some great, in-depth reporting on them

Perhaps googling her name & "the family" will provide good results.

[blm]

51. You're center rising and you want us to believe you support HRC cuz she's more liberal

than Obama and NOT a DLCer?

LOLOL

[Ikonoklast]

54. Hillary ran to the right of Obama as a candidate.

Are you deliberately obtuse, or did you just never listen to the actual words spoken by her on issues?

Look at her voting record as senator, and re-think your position, if you can.


It's the same bullshit here that thinks Dr. Dean is some sort of flaming liberal icon...look at his record as a pragmative governor.

Much more centrist than people think.

[Fearless]

9. Well when you have facts, bring them to us and we'll talk.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

12. He will face no challenger and he will be reelected. Don't worry.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Imagevision]

14. Obama demanded that the scientists he hired to investigate BP. stop finding more

leaks, so much so the scientists hired lawyers until Obama backed off. Then Obama states that the opinions from the scientists were gained by not securing the proper permits thus allowing the good Obama to shut the investigation down and allow BP. to investigate themselves.

[vaberella]

17. Provide us with direct information from those scientists. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

22. Obama's suing the shit out of BP.

Link: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/15/us-oilspill-obama-lawsuit-idUSTRE6BE59J20101215

(Reuters) - The Obama administration on Wednesday launched a legal battle against BP Plc and its partners by suing them for the worst offshore oil spill in U.S. history, which could cost the companies billions of dollars.

[defendandprotect]

46. Didn't know about any of that ... though obviously much was suppressed ....

unfortunately oil is now a "national security issue" which will demand protection

from Obama, imo.

Sad -- and thank you for the info!






The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

If you knew this, why didn't you tell us?

If you didn't know, pass it along -- !!

:)

[vaberella]

15. And this has begun?! The Primary BS has begun again.

Only people who didn't listen to him during his run or ignored his words have buyers remorse. Those of us who knew what was going on and where he stands...don't have it.

Why would anyone advocate for a weak leader to still be President. I love my President and don't have find him at all weak. Your weak attempt at an excuse to keep Obama in place makes me sick. And further more, insults those of us who do find the President a strong candidate.

[Imagevision]

16. @vaberella - so where do you think Obama stands? what has he done that makes you proud of him?!

[vaberella]

18. Hmmmm..."what has he done..." Have you been living under a rock?!

Actually I wasn't going to bother because there are endless posts showing the good Obama has done; but here is one: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x629764

It lists a good deal of them. This is just one list--there are bigger ones. But obviously he's done nothing.

[stevenleser]

57. Don't worry, there already is a Democratic Primary Challenger for Obama

and his level of sanity matches those who wish to primary Obama

Here is his website:
http://tinyurl.com/4oztrfn

Go to it, start sending him $$$$$ and making calls and hitting the pavement for him

[Phx_Dem]

33. +1000!!

Progressives are the Dems worst enemy.

[Youth Uprising]

71. You sound like a cultist...

[vroomvroom]

23. Let's Be Honest -- Hilary is MORE Corporate Owned than Obama

Obama sucks but if i had to chose between Hilary Inc., and Obama i'd choose Obama...no question.

[Sherman A1]

24. I don't want someone to run against Mr. Obama, I just

want the Obama that ran for President to show up.

[jefferson_dem]

25. The cold, harsh reality that some here simply do not want to accept.

Good post. Thanks.

[catgirl]

26. You couldn't be more wrong

Are you accusing DUers that support Obama, which happens to be most of us, as being brainwashed? Are you comparing
us to republicans that will embrace Fox News propaganda in order to keep the truth at bay?

Your snarky comment "The cold, harsh reality that some here simply do not accept" surprises me- coming from you. I
never expected such words from you.

[Godhumor]

34. He is an Obama Supporter, I think he is saying that the cold, harsh reality of Obama being needed

Over the Republicans, as the OP mentioned after being a Clinton supporter in 08. In other words, the reality is that, like it or hate it, Obama is the democratic hope in the next election.

Feel free to correct me if I got that wrong Jefferson.

[jefferson_dem]

36. You are correct.

Thanks.

The cold, harsh reality is that a primacy challenge does nothing but weaken our party's nominee for the General Election contest. Proponents of a priamry challenge are ... misguided ... at the very least.

[jefferson_dem]

37. Nope.

Perhaps I wasn't very clear. I'm an Obama supporter. :hi:

[catgirl]

38. Phew!

I thought you were agreeing with the OPs last paragraph. My bad. Sorry!!

[LWolf]

27. I gave up hope

when, with only 4 states weighing in, there were only 2 left standing on the primary ballot: two neoliberals left, 5 months before my state primary.

The outcome was pretty clear then; I don't know why anyone who looked beyond inspiring speeches and vague slogans expected any different.

[Solomon]

28. Truest words ever in your post, especially the last part of this

sentence: "Obama has certainly not done what we have expected him to do, and it's impossible for him to try to."



Good post.

[swilton]

30. How easily you assume

that a challenge to Obama from the left is a de facto endorsement of a Republican candidate. It couldn't be further from the truth. A challenge to Obama from the left is a hope for change toward positive reform....if challenging Obama means a challenge to the Democratic Party and the status quo so be it.

If Obama is not challenged from the left within the party - there will be a mass exodus within the party to a progressive candidate from outside the party.

[Armstead]

31. Why "impossible to try to"? That attitude is the Achilles Heel of the Democratic Party

You are probably correct that it would be impossible -- or very very difficult -- for President Obama to to actually pass everything progressives and liberals would like.

However the effort certainly is possible. You want an example, just look at what the GOP has accomplished in the last 2 years. After the 08 election, Republicans were consigned to a powerless minority position, their "philosophy" was marginalized and disgraced, and they were considered a hollow shell.

But rather than saying it would be "impossible" to come back, the put their shouloders to the wheel and managed in a very short time to shift the debate to their own terms again, and put Democrats on the defensive. Now we're looking at the possibility that they might take back all of the keys next year.

If they had decided it was "impossible to try" to reassert CONservatism, they'd still be huddled in the corner licking their wounds.

[defendandprotect]

47. Obama pretty much rescued the GOP from the ashes ....

in making deals with them and kowtowing to them -- adopting their agenda --

putting the notorious Alan Simpson on the Cat Food Commission!

Trampling our best chance yet for MEDICARE FOR ALL by making private deals

with Big Pharma and the private h/c industry and Rahm actually "crowing"

about how wonderful Obama had been for business and how "grateful" they should be!





The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

If you knew this, why didn't you tell us?

If you didn't know, pass it along -- !!

:)

[pscot]

50. By embracing "Bipartisanship" and "looking forward"

Obama threw awy our most effective weapons against the Regressives. By constantly referring to the "good ideas" the Repukes were contributing, he legitimzed their obstructionism and hamstrung his own legislative agenda. He's either the dumbest Democratic president ever or a DINO.

[defendandprotect]

56. Totally agree --

most aggravating to me was how Lieberman was made the Superman of the Senate --

the omnipotent Lieberman -- nothing could be done without him!!

[avaistheone1]

60. Really well said.

:kick:

[Phx_Dem]

32. Actually, Obama has done more than I expected.

The list is VERY long and impressive.

DU has turned into whinerville.

[Top Cat]

55. I totally agree with ....

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[louslobbs]

52. By all means, let's create an environment where a Republicon could potentially get the White House

So that they can replicate OH,MI,WI et al and complete the mission of destroying everything and anything that still remains good about this country. Those who don't vote, like in 2010, you vote for Republicon rule and the further destruction of the majority whether that was your intention or not, just to send "a message" about how unhappy you are about not getting everything "you were promised". If you are happy with what Walker/Koch, Kasick/Koch Repbulicons/Koch and so on, are doing to this country, by all means stay home and don't vote, you will simply help to put all of the Republicon/Koch/FOX GOP wackos on steroids to move forward with their destructive plans for the majority of us. A primary, by someone who couldn't win, would have the same basic result. I've said it before, though I don't agree with everything the President has done, (and anyone who says he's done nothing is a liar) I will not help the Republicons to undermine this country further by not voting, or calling for a primary that most likely will help another Republicon lunatic to be put into the position of running the asylum.

Most Republicon politicians are evil, represent corporations over We the People, and they lie.
Most Democratic politicians, just represent corporations over We the People, and lie.

Republicons seem to have cornered the market on lying with evil intent, I'll side with the Democratic liars, rather than the evil Republicon/Koch/FOX GOP Fraudcasting liars.
Lou

[opihimoimoi]

61. + Me

[TheKentuckian]

65. So, your case is seriously

represent corporations over We the People, and they lie vs. represent corporations over We the People, and they lie.

My friend, you are talking seriously similar outcomes for We the People.

I grant that the TeaPubliKlans are at a heavy advantage on reckless evil but lying corporatist will sink us in any event so the only sane behavior is to stop the lying corporatist rule.

Certainly without significant pressure to do decent things odds are the Democrats will become fairly wicked in addition to lying corporate lackeys under such influences and absolutely no ramifications for shitty behavior.

No substantive good can come from corporate rule regardless of which party acts as the interface.

[Phx_Dem]

66. Yeah. We don't need no stinking Unions, teachers, social security or medicare.

And if a woman wants, or needs, to have an abortion, tough shit. She should suck it up and quit complaining about being raped.

I look forward to living in a third world country controlled by teabaggers where poverty is rampant, rights are non-existent and the dumbest people in the country are in charge! What's not to love?!

:bounce:

[ncpmd]

76. Well, louslobbs, that's certainly an inspiring vision for America you are settling for

but it's not for me. I'm not willing to settle for corporatist liars as my elected officials.

It is time for change. Obama had everything he needed to enact real change on his first day as president - the populist momentum, a "loud and clear" mandate for change, and both houses of congress. Instead he just wanted to be liked and continue to be popular. His plan failed as has his presidency.

[harun]

70. Go cheer for whatever pro-corporate candidate you want.

[RBInMaine]

73. Obama has given us the most progressive legislation since LBJ, and WILL WIN in 2012. And as long as

D's/Progressive engage, we will re-take the House and keep the Senate in 2012. The RePUKES are on a radical right wing agenda binge, and most Americans won't accept it. BUT, we must have a powerful and united MESSAGE that we controla and REPEAT over and over and over again. That message is: SAVE THE MIDDLE CLASS: VOTE DEMOCRATIC

[radiclib]

75. blah blah blah

Just shoot me now.:puke: