Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

"I’ve seen war up close, & I detest it. But there are things I’ve seen that are even worse - such as

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion: Presidency Donate to DU
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:36 AM
Original message
"I’ve seen war up close, & I detest it. But there are things I’ve seen that are even worse - such as
the systematic slaughter of civilians as the world turns a blind eye. Thank God that isn’t happening this time."

Kristof

Hugs From Libyans

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: March 23, 2011

This may be a first for the Arab world: An American airman who bailed out over Libya was rescued from his hiding place in a sheep pen by villagers who hugged him, served him juice and thanked him effusively for bombing their country.
Even though some villagers were hit by American shrapnel, one gamely told an Associated Press reporter that he bore no grudges. Then, on Wednesday in Benghazi, the major city in eastern Libya whose streets would almost certainly be running with blood now if it weren’t for the American-led military intervention, residents held a “thank you rally.” They wanted to express gratitude to coalition forces for helping save their lives.

-snip-
This is also one of the few times in history when outside forces have intervened militarily to save the lives of citizens from their government. More commonly, we wring our hands for years as victims are massacred, and then, when it is too late, earnestly declare: “Never again.”
In 2005, the United Nations approved a new doctrine called the “responsibility to protect,” nicknamed R2P, declaring that world powers have the right and obligation to intervene when a dictator devours his people. The Libyan intervention is putting teeth into that fledgling concept, and here’s one definition of progress: The world took three-and-a-half years to respond forcefully to the slaughter in Bosnia, and about three-and-a-half weeks to respond in Libya.
Granted, intervention will be inconsistent. We’re more likely to intervene where there are also oil or security interests at stake. But just as it’s worthwhile to feed some starving children even if we can’t reach them all, it’s worth preventing some massacres or genocides even if we can’t intervene every time.

-snip-
Some Congressional critics complain that President Obama should have consulted Congress more thoroughly. Fair enough. But remember that the intervention was almost too late because forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi were already in Benghazi. Indeed, there was a firefight on Sunday right outside the hotel in Benghazi where foreign journalists are staying. A couple of days of dutiful consultation would have resulted in a bloodbath and, perhaps, the collapse of the rebel government.

-snip-
A senior White House official says that the humanitarian argument was decisive for President Obama: “The president was chilled by what would happen to the people of Benghazi and Tobruk. There were critical national security and national interest reasons to do this, but what compelled the president to act so quickly was the immediate prospect of mass atrocities against the people of Benghazi and the east. He was well aware of the risks of military action, but he also feared the costs of inaction.”
I’ve seen war up close, and I detest it. But there are things I’ve seen that are even worse — such as the systematic slaughter of civilians as the world turns a blind eye. Thank God that isn’t happening this time. 


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/opinion/24kristof.html?_r=1&hp




No good deed goes unpunished.
Clare Boothe Luce
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. What about Sudan?
Why no real push from the US administration or other governments to solve that humanitarian crisis?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Same for cote d'ivorie
Seems like we only want to be heros for countries that have oil or strategic importance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. You know Sudan has tons and tons of oil, right?
I'm very tired of "oil as a conspiracy theory."

In any event, in Sudan, we have the problem of China, which holds a Security Council veto. They get the lion's share of oil from Sudan, so they don't want anyone to rock the apple cart there, even if it gets a lot of people killed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Lack of UN support did not stop Clinton in Bosnia and Kosovo.
Neither of those actions had UN sanctions or resolutions. I do not support military action in Sudan or Libya but I'm tired of the UN being used as the excuse for doing or not doing something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. That was then. We have a President now who wants to change the narrative.
Which is the biggest deal about the whole thing. He doesn't want to be compared to Clinton or Bush or Reagan---he's giving or trying to give us a new standing. I don't understand how this is hard to grasp.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Which weren't preceeded by a decade of American international overreaching.
Including repeated and deliberate flaunting of and insults towards the UN and the international community in general. In other words, at that point we didn't desperately need to demonstrate that we can play within the rules.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. If we can't save everyone, we shouldn't save who we can? Is that really the standard we should
Edited on Thu Mar-24-11 11:50 AM by Pirate Smile
follow? OR Should we save who we can even if we can't save everyone? That seems more morally defensible.

From the column:

"Granted, intervention will be inconsistent. We’re more likely to intervene where there are also oil or security interests at stake. But just as it’s worthwhile to feed some starving children even if we can’t reach them all, it’s worth preventing some massacres or genocides even if we can’t intervene every time."

Do you want us to unilaterally intervene any where in the world to solve humanitarian crises or do we intervene where, like in this situation, we are able to gather multilateral support through the UN and regional organizations? OR Do we never intervene in any humanitarian crisis?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Interesting excerpt that you bolded.....
Even if there was UN support for Sudan intervention, would NATO, the US and others spend billions to help solve that crisis when there are no natural resources or US security interests at stake?

Are we intervening for humanitarian reasons? Or are we intervening because natural resources and/or US security interests are at stake?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The world is unfair and unjust. We all know that. You seem to be arguing that because of that fact
we shouldn't help who we can. Is that supposed to be a more humanitarian point of view or more heartless?

Instead of arguing AGAINST helping some people because others will not be helped, how about arguing FOR helping more people who need humanitarian interventions?

You seem more focused on the motives instead getting the people help.

I don't get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. There is definitely a lot of suspicion about US government motives
When people see these double standards, these kinds of questions will never go away.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. Kick to that

And thanks for the OP!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. There should have been such a push ages ago. That doesn't negate anything in regard to Libya.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. That is the stupidest argument. Nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's not an argument
It's a question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. The administration has time travel capabilities?

That is so cool!

:headbang:

I mean, I thought it was pretty awesome that we got Sudan to give up their southern half peacefully this coming July. Now, we can do even better. Go back in time and stop the violence that precipitated all this. Stop the fighting before it stops rather than waiting for it to end in 2005.

I wonder what other Bushisms they might be able to prevent with this technology. That fucking Obama. Keeping something like this hidden from us all this time.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. China's veto on the Security Council
Same reason no one is doing much about Myanmar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. If you can't fix the entire world all at once, don't try to fix any of the parts?
Edited on Thu Mar-24-11 02:34 PM by JoePhilly
ok.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Two things....
1) I never said that
2) Attempting to "fix" the world through military intervention is what leads to things like 9/11. When you stick your nose in places it doesn't belong, there's a good chance you can get it chopped off. Continued military intervention in the Arab and Muslim world will only breed more extremists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. You said "What about Sudan?" ...
And then you went on to say "Why no real push from the US administration or other governments to solve that humanitarian crisis?"

There are many such situations around the world. So many, that you could never tackle each at the same time. And ... each is different.

Because we can't "fix them all at once", we don't try to. In fact, we generally try to use other means even when we want to help.

We sat on the sidelines in both Ruwanda, and in Iraq after Gulf War I ... and in both cases, we regretted not protecting the civilians after.

Or, take recent events in Egypt, many on DU claimed Obama was secretly working to keep Mubarack in power, and that he needed to bluster more. Obama did not make any threats because the protests, and the government response remained relatively peaceful. Mubarack is now out of power.

In Libya, that is not the case. Ghaddafi has attacked the protesters, and has been killing them in large numbers. We can standback and watch, as we did in the two cases I mention, or we can engage the UN and try to stop the attacks on civilians. And thus the NFZ.

As for the military intervention piece, I again disagree. The key question is WHY we, or the UN, or NATO, engage.

The reason we went into Iraq in Gulf War I, was because the Saudis and the Kuwaitis asked us, as allies. And we had a very large international coalition.

9/11 was not just about "intervention" in ME states, it was also about US support for Israel. And so, if you want the US to get OUT of the ME, then you must also want us OUT of military support for Israel. Which I doubt you would support. But maybe I am wrong.

Personally, I think we should support both Israel, and moderate elements in the other ME countries. And when the people of any ME country start to demand democratic freedoms, we (US+UN+NATO+others) should be willing to provide assistance. At times, that assistance will just be humanitarian aid, some times, military protection (Bosnia comes to mind).

Or was Clinton wrong to engage Bosnia?




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. WHAT????

Are you Fing nuts? You're #2 is fcked up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. Nicholas Kristof pushed so hard for Bush to do something about Darfur it was
incredible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. If there was one ounce of altruism in our actions
These points could matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent piece. I was against any military intervention, but I've come around.
Recommended.....:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. What a piece of pro war propagana,
The fact is that the rebels chose to take up arms against the Libyan government without a clue as to what they were getting into. This provoked the expected government response, and they were in the process of getting their asses kicked. They are still engaged in a armed rebellion, now with the support of the US. The rebels clearly didn't care who got in harms way when they started this thing, what did they expect was going to happen? Or are they completely stupid?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Well, you know Nicolas Kristof - quite the big "war propagandist".
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. In this case yes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. In your opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. What do you want? In a rebellion you either win or you get your ass kicked
Edited on Thu Mar-24-11 03:56 PM by The_Casual_Observer
it's the way it works. Unless Obama made them some kind of promise, we owe those rebels nothing.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. So you condone dictators brutally repressing armed rebellions?
What a piece of pro-fascist propaganda. WHEN exactly are repressed people going to be on level ground to fight back against their oppressor? When? The dictators of the world thank you for enabled their brutally repressive tactics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. It's their choice, but they had better plan for the worse once the bullets
fly in both directions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Utter nonsense n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
18. No checks, no balances. Wonderful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. Can we once, in fact, be greeted as liberators? Let us enjoy it while it lasts. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. We were once greeted as liberators
in Iraq. Well, at least by the factions that were suppressed by Saddam.

But, like a free-loading in-law, we don't know when it's time to leave, and we overstay our welcome.

I'll be surprised if we get out of Libya before the 2016 elections.

:hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
23. K/R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
35. It most assuredly IS happening. Just not in Libya n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
38. Well said n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ramsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
39. What about Rawanda? Why is it only oil rich coutries that we invade?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
40. Well, let's hope the rebels don't start systematically slaughtering people...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. the article doesn't imply that...
though what it does bring to light is how easily "Justice" can be subverted when the rules are not yet written. I don't doubt that some of these mercenaries would claim they worked in construction in order to get out of detainment... and that there may be some innocent people detained. I DO hope none of these prisoners are facing execution. What did the American revolutionaries do with captured Hessians?

:shrug:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
41. kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
43. K&R
Thanks for posting!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion: Presidency Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC