I hope everyone is listening to Richard Engel on Rachel, re: Libya.

[babylonsister]

He said our presence has been a very good thing; massive casualties and destruction would have happened otherwise. Catch a re-run if you can...

[elleng]

1. Watching, and holding breath for Richard Engel.

[babylonsister]

2. Me, too. He's fearless; I hope he gets hazardous duty pay. nt

[jberryhill]

4. He's not fearless, he's insane

IMHO people who do what he does, repeatedly, over extended periods become adrenaline junkies who do not recognize their own PTSD until too late. He's been ratcheting up the hazard level in his reporting over time, and isn't going to be happy until he gets himself shot.

He does great work, but he's going to get himself killed.

[Pirate Smile]

9. I love Richard but I'm afraid he has taken the spot of Steve Irwin - aka "The Crocodile Hunter" - as

the person who everyone thinks is going to eventually get killed during one of his dangerous trips.

[jberryhill]

14. Good analogy

[Pirate Smile]

3. The point that if the bombs were delayed even 12 hours Benghazi would have probably

been overrun seems important for the congress people who have been yelling.

It was good to hear that the army defectors are working with the rebels and they are making more progress.

A much more optimistic report then his first one a few days ago was.

[jenmito]

10. I think Engel reported that it was "a couple hours" that, if would've been delayed,

would've resulted in decimation of Benghazi.

[jenmito]

5. Sadly, they don't show re-runs on Fridays. Engel ALSO said he's more encouraged today

than in the past days, that they're finally starting to get organized, figuring out strategies, and gaining momentum. I really worry about Engel. He's been too close to danger twice in the last two days by pro-Qaddafi fire.

[slay]

6. I think one of the reasons so many people on DU have a problem with this Libya situation

myself included, is that we are already in 1 pointless war in Afghanistan for what now - 11 years? I lose track. That's sad. And a 2nd bullshit Iraq war for profit/oil that was sold to us based on lies by the president at the time. Liberals like me are VERY wary when it comes to more war.

It's like the boy who cried wolf. "We have to go to war in Afghanistan for over a decade and waste billions of dollars!" No, we didn't.

"We have to invade Iraq - Saddamn has weapons of mass destruction! More billions MUST be wasted!" No, all lies.

So now when intervention might actually be necessary, the government has lost all credibility. Ugh.

[MadMaddie]

7. You are right Junior fucked this country with the

two bungled invasions but I believe that the world trusts President Obama more than any Republican that this was the right thing to do.

[jenmito]

8. "So now when intervention might actually be necessary, the government has lost all credibility"

with YOU and others who agree with you. The rest of us realize that Obama is NOT Bush and Libya is NOT Iraq and Afghanistan. Ugh.

[slay]

11. Obama escalated the pointless war in Afghanistan

costing billions of dollars and many lives. So yes, I have issues with Obama and his so called "good war" theory about Afghanistan. Most definitely.

[jenmito]

12. He also is going to start withdrawing the troops in July and finish by 2014. n/t

[ReggieVeggie]

16. like he "finished" Iraq?

how many troops are still there? how many mercenaries?

[jenmito]

18. I guess you haven't been paying attention. He is on schedule, doing what he said:

He withdrew all combat troops already as promised and will have the rest of the troops out by the end of this year, as promised.

[vaberella]

28. You haven't been paying attention. The final rounde of troops in Iraq come out this summer. n/t

[Runework]

33. final round? you sure?

A senior adviser to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said the U.S. is quietly suggesting to Iraqi officials that up to 20,000 service members stay.

http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_17655488#ixzz1HhC6hjM0

[vaberella]

36. And there are always a lot of whispered words and always from some sort of "senior official"

However that is not the case. Or as of yet. This was on Rachel Maddow's show when the first round of troops were taken out.

Here is the old link of my post on the topic and also the mention of the soldier and what time the interview was made...So whatever is being whispered is just conjecture and again just whispers. I'm sure there are things that could change. But, I sincerely doubt that is the case.

These same conjectures and stories were running around when people said Obama would not be letting the 50,000 or so troops he did take out of Iraq. Everyone was like, that's not going to happen. Well it did and it shocked quite a few people. I believe Gates himself said they are not moving from that schedule either. So... until something comes out of the WH---that article is just a sensationalist story.

I've come to realize one thing about the mass media. And when I say mass, I mean mass---left, right, in-between. They are a business. They are in the business of making money. Sensationalist topics and stories by "senior officials", "some of the people I have spoken too", "some well known republican/democratic politicians", "a source", and secret santas----should be stories taken with a grain of salt. There are people who are working intentionally to go after Obama---especially in the media. This is a fact. You can see the crazy stories of impeachment and how hot the topic was by the media. They like this stuff and feed on it. Until it's official, it's just a bloody story.

This is news coming from a major who is in charge of organizing the removal of troops from Iraq directly on the orders of our President---not a "senior official" of so and so.

As verification our removal is from between September to December 2011.
Link here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x416352

[Runework]

38. uh, this isn't whispered words

"Defense Secretary Robert Gates recently told Congress that talks about extending the deadline are ongoing. One congressman suggested there could be 20,000 troops in Iraq next year, down from the roughly 50,000 now."

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/01/134141465/will-u-s-follow-withdrawal-deadline-in-iraq

[vaberella]

39. Yeah, it's still whispered.

None of this confirmed and Gates has not formally said anything and this congressman remains a mystery. As I said...rumors of the same were beings aid right before the troops were cut in half in Iraq last summer. So pardon me if I take more reports of these with a grain of salt. Gates has complained a great deal that there are people releasing information out of their ass. Until we hear it from him and from Obama---EVERYTHING is conjecture and just whispers.

As I mentioned---the link I provided as a military man who is saying his orders and the September-December 2011 deadline troops are coming out. Pardon me if I'd rather listen to the troop man himself versus someone from NPR, who rarely report the truth and had Juan Williams as a contributor, as not really the beacon of truth and honesty.

[Runework]

41. uh, no it isn't

gates said the us is interested in having troops in iraq after 2011

and that talks are ongoing

he said this to a congressional committee


Feb 16 2011 look it up

[Clio the Leo]

22. Some of us like to piss and moan about the evils of war....

.... as we quietly and casually enjoy the benefits of it.

[pulledpork]

31. Who's enjoying the benefits?

What benefits?

[ProSense]

13. "So yes, I have issues with Obama and his so called

'good war' theory about Afghanistan."

The war that everyone, including Kucinich, voted for?

The one that Obama said he would focus on and add troops to during his campaign?

Question: Did/does Afghanistan qualify as one of those "real" situations (unlike Libya) that would justify using Tomohawk missiles?

It's time to end the war in Afghanistan, but it was started by Bush and overwhelmingly approved by Congress long before Obama entered the Senate.

[jenmito]

15. Very good points! n/t

[slay]

20. Yes, and I tell you this every time we discuss it - it was wrong no matter what

he promised - it was wrong to not just continue - but escalate the war in Afghanistan. Wrong.

We also still have troops in Iraq. Lots.

What about his promise about closing Gitmo which he now says will stay open indefinitely?

Or that medical marijuana clinics would be left alone? He has broken a LOT of promises.

[Clio the Leo]

23. Folks need to SERIOUSLY quit the "why wont he close Guantanamo" meme...

.... because it ignores the obvious facts in a way the far right would be proud of.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/05/28/gitmo_closing_never

[slay]

25. Then everyone needs to stop the - Obama said he would escalate Afghanistan - meme

it goes both ways. one day i'll learn to stop responding to GD:P posts. it's like talking to a wall with yall.

[Clio the Leo]

43. how so?

Not following your logic. What does the fact that Congress has, on numerous occasions and in a bipartisan fashion, blocked Gitmo-closing funds, have to do with Obama staying true to his word about Afghanistan?

[vaberella]

29. Not in the same number.

Troops in Iraq are down by half. And the final round comes out this summer. As far as Gitmo---Democratic Congressmen said no. He has to follow what Congress decreed and they voted against him. So then---Gitmo not closed. That has nothing to do with Obama, and everything to do with Congress----and he NEVER said it would stay open indefinitely.

Medical marijuana? Actually Obama has increased funding for medical marijuana.

The Obama administration will not seek to arrest medical marijuana users and suppliers as long as they conform to state laws, under new policy guidelines to be sent to federal prosecutors Monday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/19/new-medical-marijuana-pol_n_325426.html

The other issue on raids is people saying Obama is raiding the clinics. It would seem to be because they are not complying with the laws that are set forth. Not just for anything, since they said---if you follow the law you're fine.

As for his promises...give me a break----the promises he has kept is far far far larger than the promises broken. But people harp on the broken and ignore ALL of the positives which don't even fit on one page.

[sad sally]

17. Historical Truth by George Orwell, Feb. 4, 1944

In no case do you get one answer which is universally accepted because it is true: in each case you get a number of totally incompatible answers, one of which is finally adopted as the result of a physical struggle. History is written by the winners.

[Clio the Leo]

21. We're not at war in Iraq...

... unless you're using the logic we're "at war" because there are troops there. In which case we're also at war in German and Japan, you'll need to blame that on Obama too.

[slay]

24. Check out "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins

and then tell me we're not still engaged in Iraq.

[Runework]

35. us troops are still getting killed, clio

look it up


and the slack is being taken over by other americans...mercenaries...look that up too

[Clio the Leo]

42. My cousin is stationed in Baghdad....

... dont need to look anything up love. ;)

[Life Long Dem]

30. Another pointless war?

The pointless war I see is between Qaddafi and the people of Libya.

[Cali_Democrat]

32. Indeed

Unfortunately another war will be on the horizon, we just don't know where yet.

Trust me, our "leaders" will lead us into another one and there's nothing we can do to stop the madness. They have to feed the military industrial complex and it's need for hundreds of billions of dollars every year.

US foreign policy has become a nightmare.

[ProSense]

19. With friends like these

Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni: The Qaddafi I Know

<...>

Backing Idi Amin: Idi Amin came to power in 1971 with the support of Britain and Israel because they thought he was uneducated enough to be used by them. Amin, however, turned against his sponsors when they refused to sell him guns to fight Tanzania. Unfortunately, Qaddafi, without first getting enough information about Uganda, jumped in to support Idi Amin. He did this because Amin was a "Muslim" and Uganda was a "Muslim country," where Muslims were being "oppressed" by Christians. Amin killed a lot of people extrajudicially, and Qaddafi was identified with these mistakes.

In 1972 and 1979, Qaddafi sent Libyan troops to defend Amin when we (the Uganda National Liberation Front) attacked him. I remember a Libyan Tupolev Tu-22 bomber trying to bomb us in Mbarara in 1979. The bomb ended up in Nyarubanga, Burundi, because the pilots were scared. They could not come close to bombing their intended target properly. We had already shot-down many of Amin's MIGs using surface-to-air missiles. Our Tanzanian brothers and sisters were doing much of this fighting. Many Libyan militias were captured and repatriated to Libya by Tanzania. This was a big mistake by Qaddafi and a direct aggression against the people of Uganda and East Africa.

Pushing for a United States of Africa: The second big mistake by Qaddafi was his position vis-à-vis the African Union (AU), where he called for a continental government "now." Since 1999, he has been pushing this position. Black people are always polite. They, normally, do not want to offend other people. This is called obufura in the Runyankore language, or mwolo in Luo -- handling, especially strangers, with care and respect. It seems some of the non-African cultures do not have obufura. You can witness a person talking to a mature person as if he or she is talking to a kindergarten child. "You should do this; you should do that; etc." We tried to politely point out to Qaddafi that continental governance was difficult in the short and medium term. We should, instead, aim at the Economic Community of Africa and, where possible, also aim at Regional Federations.

But Qaddafi would not relent. He would not respect the rules of the AU. Topics or discussions that had been covered by previous meetings would be resurrected by Qaddafi. He would "overrule" a decision taken by all other African heads of state. Some of us were forced to come out and oppose his wrong position and, working with others, we repeatedly defeated his illogical position.

Proclaiming himself king of kings: The third mistake has been the tendency by Qaddafi to interfere in the internal affairs of many African countries, using the little money Libya has compared to those countries. One blatant example was his involvement with cultural leaders of black Africa -- kings, chiefs, etc. Since the political leaders of Africa had refused to back his project of an African government, Qaddafi, incredibly, thought that he could bypass them and work with these kings to implement his wishes. I warned Qaddafi in Addis Ababa that action would be taken against any Ugandan king who involved himself in politics, because it was against our Constitution. I moved a motion in Addis Ababa to expunge from the records of the AU all references to kings (cultural leaders) who had made speeches in our forum, because they had been invited there illegally by Colonel Qaddafi.

<...>

Yikes!

[Runework]

34. L O L

Britain and France never interfered in internal african affairs...no...and if they did, it was out of the goodness of their heart

and museveni of Uganda? he supported legislation to execute homosexuals, before there was world outcry

[slay]

26. I apologize to DU for ever recommending this thread.

n/t

[vaberella]

27. Why? n/t

[flpoljunkie]

37. I saw Richard. It was very encouraging particularly since he has not been feeling this way recently

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

40. Just what we need...a "good war"

We should kill Libyans, because some people just "need killing".

We should bomb Libyans, because blowing people up is just good television.

We should kill because we're on the "right side".

Got it.