Tweety pointed something out that should put the Birther crap to rest...

[HardWorkingDem]

Tonight on Hardball, Matthews said that it would not matter where Obama had been born because his mother was an American citizen. Doesn't this put a stop to this bullshit?

[LiberalFighter]

1. You would think.

[pnwmom]

2. Not to the birthers, because they have this other theory.

If you are born outside of the U.S., there's some law that requires your parent to have been in the country for a certain number of years after the age of 15 -- and his mother was only 19. Supposedly, then, if Obama was born somewhere else, she wouldn't be able to pass on citizenship to him.

If, however, Obama provides proof he was born here (as, of course, he already has ), they have an answer for that, too. Then they say he lost his citizenship when his mother and stepfather took him to Indonesia and enrolled him in school. The problem with that claim is that a parent is legally unable to disavow the U. S. citizenship of a minor child -- only an adult can do that and only for himself.

There are also those who claim that he is disqualified from the Presidency because a natural born citizen, even one who is born here, cannot have a parent who is a citizen of another country -- and Obama's father was from Kenya. But we have already had a President, President Garfield, who had a parent with a British citizenship. So there goes that idea.

But the birthers keep dreaming their dreams.

[krispos42]

48. And the first 8 or ten presidents were born British, let's not forget. n/t

[dsc]

51. they were specificly grandfathered in

"citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution"

[krispos42]

52. And Obama was born in Hawaii, which in 1961 was a US state.

Which specifically makes him a natural-born citizen.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

And yet the controversy rages on, despite the facts. :-)


After all, those presidents that were born British citizens... why, their parents were foreign nationals, yes??? :evilgrin:



Fiction trumps reality. The birthers have come to a conclusion and are now working to create a process that justifies it.

[dsc]

53. I am not saying he isn't

but the first 9 Presidents are irrelevant to that issue.

[glinda]

3. It is about hate and not birth.

[napoleon_in_rags]

4. President has to be natural born.

Which is defined by place of birth I believe.

But its not about facts at this point...You have his birth on record announced in the paper, stored independently in 1000 archives. If that doesn't do it nothing will.

[sarge43]

8. Then John McCain is not a natural born US citizen.

OP is correct. By US law citizenship is based either on a parent's US citizenship or birth in the US or its territories.

"Truth? We don't need no stinkin' truth!"

[treestar]

25. McCain is, but somehow, not so much proof is demanded:

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > § 1403
Prev | Next
§ 1403. Persons born in the Canal Zone or Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904
How Current is This?
(a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.
(b) Any person born in the Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States employed by the Government of the United States or by the Panama Railroad Company, or its successor in title, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.

Interesting that the birthers were not concerned to see a McCain parent birth certificate, which is needed along with his own to prove his citizenship. Not one demand to see old Mr. McCain's or Mother McCain's documents.

[sarge43]

26. Of course he is. Both his parents were US citizens

Again place of birth isn't the only criteria. If that were so, thousands of dependent children of US service personnel would be SOL, among others.

McCain's father had to be a US citizen else he wouldn't have had a line commission, not pre-WWII anyway.

The birthers are just shit stirring.

[treestar]

27. But why don't they want to see the documents?

Why do they just believe his parents were born in the US and that he was born in the Canal Zone? Why don't they want the long form vault copies?

[sarge43]

29. Let me think ..........

Because McCain is Staypuft Marshmallow Man white and a Repub?

[CreekDog]

9. natural born means "born" a citizen and if you're citizenship comes from parents --you are

because you are "born" a citizen, no matter where you are.

[napoleon_in_rags]

47. Thanks for clarification. But the man was born here

which is the major point.

[golfguru]

5. Parents must have lived in US for 5 years after age 14

as US citizens by birth or naturalized to qualify as parents
of a "natural born citizen" if born on foreign travel/soil.
Obama's mother was 18 when he was born. So only way he is natural born citizen
is if he was born in USA.

[CreekDog]

10. if? are you a birther?

seriously?

[golfguru]

32. No, I believe he was born in Hawaii

The birther issue would dissolve like snow in July
the instant he releases the original birth certificate.
I do not understand why he will not do that and end this
nonsense.

[Travelman]

34. Because he can't under Hawaiian law

"I do not understand why he will not do that and end this
nonsense."

Hawaiian law is clear: since 1977, if you want a record of a birth in Hawaii, you get a COLB. Period. That's what everyone born in Hawaii gets, even if they were born there before Hawaii gained statehood. The law is crystal clear that even if Obama wanted to walk into the health department archives and see his actual original birth certificate, he may not do that. It would be a crime (misdemeanor, I think) for the health department director to allow someone to view the original documents if they are not specifically authorized to do so under the law.

It's not that Obama won't release his original birth certificate, it's that he can't.



And besides that, the birther issue wouldn't go away if he were to somehow be able to show the world the original birth certificate, because birthers are so wrapped up in their delusional little world that they'll simply claim that it's an elaborate forgery and probably trot out that idiotic forged Kenyan birth certificate again. There simply never will be any reasoning with these fools. They have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that they simply will not accept facts under any circumstances.

[CreekDog]

37. so what he released was not official?

i don't have my original birth certificate. is there a question over my head?

yes --and you are helping to create that question.

[golfguru]

39. My wife lost her birth certificate

and we needed it to apply for her passport. We paid the nominal fee
and got the official copy from Cook County, Illinois. It has the county
seal embossed. May be Hawaii does not do that? I am not familiar with Hawaiian law
in this regard.

[CreekDog]

40. Does it need to be the long form or not to be official --in your opinion?

[golfguru]

41. Frankly I do not know

I did not even know there are two kinds of BC.
When we needed my wife's BC, we did not ask for any specifics,
just requested the BC and paid the fee with a check. The certificate
arrived by mail and it shows her parents name, hospital of birth etc.

[CreekDog]

42. if you don't know then why are you casting judgment on Obama's?

Obama's is official. It's enough to get a passport or to prove citizenship to HIS OWN GOVERNMENT.

what god do you pretend to be to suggest he needs something more?

when you question his official birth certificate, you are questioning EVERY AMERICAN'S official birth certificate.

and if you do not post your own, then you are a hypocrite.

[golfguru]

45. Because that is all you hear in the news

especially with noise being made by Trumpeteer.

[Exilednight]

55. Not all states have two types of birth certificates. Like the poster stated, his wife

had to get one from Illinois. In Illinois they give you a photocopied version of your birth certificate with a raised county seal on it. Unless you were before a certain year when many records were destroyed by a fire and were replaced with an updated version birth certificate based off of old records.

I couldn't tell you the difference between a long form and short form certificate since Illinois doesn't have them.

[Travelman]

44. Obama's COLB has the raised state seal

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html">See for yourself. Click the pictures to get a really big, detailed picture.

Be sure to look at the bottom of the first picture to see where the COLB clearly states "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding." This is the official copy of a birth certifiacte that one gets when one is a Hawaiian native. Every single Hawaiian gets the same thing. It's what native Hawaiians send in with their passport appliations to the State Department.

[golfguru]

46. So why is is the BC even an issue?

Why are news media giving attention to Trump?
Why does'nt NY Times, WaPo & others emphasize that the certificate
of live birth is the final word?

[EffieBlack]

38. self delete

[BlueMTexpat]

6. President Obama was born in Hawaii after it became a state of the US.

End of story.
Don't be distracted by the nonsense. Matthews should know better. But he obviously doesn't.

[treestar]

22. And even if it weren't a state yet, he'd still be a citizen:

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > § 1405
Prev | Next
§ 1405. Persons born in Hawaii
How Current is This?
A person born in Hawaii on or after August 12, 1898, and before April 30, 1900, is declared to be a citizen of the United States as of April 30, 1900. A person born in Hawaii on or after April 30, 1900, is a citizen of the United States at birth. A person who was a citizen of the Republic of Hawaii on August 12, 1898, is declared to be a citizen of the United States as of April 30, 1900.

[BlueMTexpat]

36. Thanks for this - that helps with the age and territory argument

that I had conceded.

[HardWorkingDem]

31. Now, Matthews has been 100 percent out in front of this story from the start...

and has called it bullshit from the start. His point in this segment was that Obama was born to an American citizen mother, so the story should be done with just that.

His point was from this alone the continued speaking of this ridiculous and should not even go forward.

Now, I'd love to see people just killing mics from now one when this shit even comes up. I'd love to see some journalist with spine say to Donald Trump if you bring that idiotic crap up, the interview is over.

[BlueMTexpat]

33. While I totally agree with you about killing the mikes,

and concur that this whole "issue" is sh**, basing Obama's natural-born status on his mother's citizenship is problematic in the circumstances: his father's non-US citizenship; the age of his mother; and the fact that Hawaii had only recently become the 50th state - which is important in connection with his mother's age. This is why having Matthews say this literally makes me gnash my teeth. it plays right into all the crazy birther arguments - and they ARE crazy.

I know more than a little bit about "natural-born" status firsthand since my children's father was not a US citizen when my sons were born in the 1960s. One was born in the US; the other was not. For the first, there is no question. His place of birth guaranteed his NB status. For the second, the law was a bit if-fy at the time. However, the law has since changed and my second son would be characterized as NB even under the requirements of the old law because he has resided within the US for all but five years of his 44. Of course, neither son is remotely interested in running for the US Presidency.

The fact that Obama was born in Hawaii trumps the citizenship status of either parent. He WAS born in Hawaii. And Hawaii was a US state at the time of his birth. Period.

[HardWorkingDem]

43. Thank you for your information....

For the life of me I just can't get how this large group of people are not ashamed of their plane stupidity and what it says about the American populace. To spend so much time on this topic should be a stark illustration of how these people are not serious about the real issues that face this country or that they lack the tools to solve these problems.

What is even sadder is how the Dems can't use this idiocy to their benefit more. With all the books these right wing cranks write about "the end of shame" and the dumbing down of America, they seem completely carefree of their stupidity and wear it like a badge of honor (i.e., Michelle Bachman).

[RichGirl]

7. I have no doubt whatsoever that Obama was born in Hawaii.

The birth announcement in the newspaper alone is proof, since it's the county that puts it in not the parents.

In an odd way, it gives the birthers license to be racist. A person can't help being black and a person can't help where they were born sinc they had no say in it. They don't want him to be president, but not based on how well he is doing the job, but based on things he has no control over and have nothing to do with the kind of president he is.

[paparush]

11. But, but, but..he's still BLACK, ya know!!!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

14. Exactly, the rethugs got a different standard if you're black. Disgusting.

[treestar]

23. Exactly, why did they never care before?

Why aren't they as worried about BCs for any other candidate? Hillary, Bill, Dole, Gore, Kerry, Cheney, Bush, Biden, Palin, no demands for birth certificates at all!

[Moody]

12. I am enjoying it. The Republicans are looking more looney by the minute.

Matthews did a good job pointing out how ridiculous Donald Trump's claims are.

[AlinPA]

16. Most republicans believe the birther claim. It is now necessary that they all get on the

birther bandwagon that Trump is pulling. It's working for him. Other candidates will be left behind if they don't. Huckabee, Gingrich and Bachmann are on board now.

[robcon]

13. I think the birthers don't care if it's true. They just want to keep the rumors alive.

Their purpose is to smear... not to prove their case.

(A little like the smears by our side about Palin and her son, IMO.)

[AlinPA]

15. No. It won't stop. This is now like the Swift Boating when Kerry ran. Any republican running in

the primaries will have to be a full-throated birther. Teabaggers won't have it any other way.

[robcon]

19. I disagree completely. The RWers will allow Trump to lead this.

Serious Repugs will keep their distance from the birther issue, but will benefit to the extent that Trump (not a serious candidate) keeps the doubts about Obama's birth alive among the fringes.

[Keith Bee]

17. The wingnuts could go back in time to Hawaii, 1961 and

watch Obama's mother in the delivery room, and they'd still be bleating like gots.

[msanthrope]

18. No. The birthers evolved to the point of conceding that even if Obama was born in Hawaii

he still wasn't a citizen--

No shit---the reining legal theories are (in a condensed form):

1) Obama's mother wasn't old enough to confer legal citizenship on offspring.

2) Obama's father was British. This makes Obama British. This makes him not American.

3) Obama's stepfather made him an Indonesian Muslim.

4) Vattel's Law of Nations states that you need 2 citizen parents. This is closely related to theory #2. Who the fuck is Vattel? Shit, I don't have all day.

5) The Orly Taitz school of Law/Dentistry/Real Estate--Obama is the Manchurian Candidate, not born in America, using stolen Social Security numbers.

The fetid swamp of Freeperville has many lively discussions.....

[treestar]

24. Yes, they get more and more ridiculous

There's the one about Obama claiming to be a foreign student to get a scholarship to Occidental and the concurrent demand that he release his Occidental records.

They looked into Secret Service Records to see if they could find something, but unfortunately for them, Obama registered for the draft.

They claim he traveled to Afghanistan at a time US citizens were not allowed to travel there, so he he must have gone there on another country's passport.

None of which causes loss of US citizenship, but that of course doesn't impress them.

[divineorder]

49. About those stolen SS numbers

Isn't that a Federal offense? If it was true, forget impeachment (it would be just a formality anyway) and go straight to Federal court. Why aren't they trying that angle instead of the birther one? Because they know it's not true in the least. I mean, making him a felon would be easier than proving he's not a citizen or chasing ghosts in Kenya and Indonesia (most of those who have first hand knowledge are now deceased).

[backscatter712]

20. The birthers will point out that that wasn't the law back in the 60's.

The law back then said if the father was a US citizen, he's a US citizen, but not if the mother's a US citizen.

Yeah.

It puts the birthers square in favor of using a bass-ackwards misogynistic law from the 50's so they can exclude a person based on the philosophy of Jim Crow.

[treestar]

21. In 1961, the US parent had to have 5 years of residence from age 14.

that makes it 19. Ann Dunham was 18 in 1961. So had she given birth to Barack outside the US, he would not have been born a citizen. that is not the case now and he'd be a citizen.

So that's what fuels the birthers except for one inconvenient fact - PBO was born in the US, so that rule does not apply. It would only have mattered had he actually been born outside the US.

[bullwinkle428]

28. It SHOULD, but it won't.

[Travelman]

30. Yep.

The irrational abject refusal to accept facts that birthers have is just amazing.

Typical conversation with a birther:

Birther: "Obama refuses to produce his birth certificate."
Me: "Here it is."
Birther: "That's a COLB, not a birth certificate."
Me: "They are the exact same thing under the law."
Birther: "No, it's different. I want to see the original!"
Me: "You can't, and neither can Obama, even if he wanted to. Here's the chapter-and-verse of the Hawaii law that says so."
Birther: "Oh yeah? Well he's the President! He can do ANYTHING!"
Me: "Um, no, he can't. He's not above the law."
Birther: "Well he could still show his original birth certificate."
Me: "*sigh* No, he can't. This is what I just got through explaining to you. The law is not ambiguous on this. NO ONE gets to see the original birth certificate of ANYONE born in Hawaii. That's been the law since 1977."
Birther: "Well, that's not good enough. He couldn't even get a passport with one of those COLBs."
Me: "Abject bullshit. I help probably 75 people a year get passports in a hurry. They send in a COLB every. single. time. The State Department takes COLBs as absolute proof of citizenship.
Birther: "WWHHHHHHHAAARRRRRRGAAAARRRRRRBBBBLLLLLEEEE!!!!"
Me: "Ah, fuck it. You're just too stupid to accept facts."

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

35. Someone else also made a good point: Why would his mother and father, in their attempt

to *hide* his true birth certificate, give him the name "Barack Hussein Obama"?

It they conspired to achieve their goal of him becoming president by hiding his *Kenyan* heritage and making him all-American, why even give him such an American name like "Barack Hussein Obama"? :sarcasm:

[divineorder]

50. Good point

Why give him such an unusual and foreign (very foreign)name? Bruce or Barry Dunham would fit right in.

Obama was born before the Black Power movement which made a big deal out of giving children African, or African sounding names. All of my siblings who were born before 1961 have European names such as John, et cetera. Names such as Aisha weren't common before the seventies. Indeed, that's a good way to tell African-American ages: if it's African-sounding or Muslim sounding, they were born no sooner than the 1970's. So the only answer for Obama was the true one: he is his father's son.

[MurrayDelph]

54. Logic don't work against hard-core crazy

I remember an interview with a NASA scientist who, during the interview, was questioned about Area 51.
He said (to the effect) "I wish we DID have an alien. But you know, if we had one, and brought it out and showed it to the Area 51 fanatics, they would look at it and say, 'No, we want to see the GOOD aliens'"