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Reconciliation resolution tactics with the Byrd Rule mean that IT IS A TRAP

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:46 PM
Original message
Reconciliation resolution tactics with the Byrd Rule mean that IT IS A TRAP
There is the new tactic to just kill the health care legislation in the Senate and go for the Reconciliation tactic to get another version of health care passed.

That sounds cool until you look at the Byrd Rule (named after Senator Robert Byrd) and what it does to any possible passing of legislation that would cost money.

It's a classic example of the old adage where the Small Print that taketh what the Big Print giveth away.

It's called Title 2, § 644. Extraneous matter in reconciliation legislation.

...a provision shall be considered to be extraneous if it increases, or would increase, net outlays, or if it decreases, or would decrease, revenues during a fiscal year after the fiscal years covered by such reconciliation bill or reconciliation resolution, and such increases or decreases are greater than outlay reductions or revenue increases resulting from other provisions in such title in such year;

(snip)

...the provision mitigates direct effects clearly attributable to a provision changing outlays or revenues and both provisions together produce a net reduction in the deficit;

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/2/644.html


Aside from a summary of the Byrd Rule, there is the obvious strategy that the Republicans would do if a reconciliation resolution is enacted. They could say that the funding in health care reform is "extraneous" and the only way to stop that procedural objection would mean overturning the ruling with... get this, 60 VOTES!

(1) if it does not produce a change in outlays or revenues;
(2) if it produces an outlay increase or revenue decrease when the instructed committee is not in compliance with its instructions;
(3) if it is outside the jurisdiction of the committee that submitted the title or provision for inclusion in the reconciliation measure;
(4) if it produces a change in outlays or revenues which is merely incidental to the non-budgetary components of the provision;
(5) if it would increase the deficit for a fiscal year beyond those covered by the reconciliation measure, though the provisions in question may receive an exception if they in total in a Title of the measure net to a reduction in the deficit; and
(6) if it recommends changes in Social Security.

Any Senator may raise a procedural objection to a provision believed to be extraneous, which will then be ruled on by the presiding Senator. A vote of 60 Senators is required to overturn the ruling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_(United_States_Congress)


Reconciliation might look pretty on the outside, but it would be the final death knell for any health care reform. As much as the current health care reform bill (which is not yet released) is not perfect, killing it and thinking reconciliation is the answer is a fool's errand.






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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Reconcile with single player heath care plan
and it won't even break the Byrd rules.

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. So Single PAYER (not Player) would not increase the deficit?
It wouldn't be seen as an "extraneous" expenditure and be pointed out by a Republican and thus have to have 60 votes to overturn the procedural objection?

Um... thanks for playing, but that dog don't hunt.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm not sure, but if Medicare was expanded to include say
everyone 25 and over and sold to participants at Medicare's cost, I don't see that as increasing or decreasing outlays or revenues.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Right, senate chair can say it's not a serious outlay and move on. They're not getting out of ...
...reconciliation on this one.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I would love Single Payer, but saying it wouldn't increase the deficit is foolish
Of course it would increase the deficit in the interim before it gets going.

Reconciliation resolutions are usually for cutting away at bills or reducing taxes. The Byrd Rule ironically would make tampering with health care reform. We'd need 60 votes to overturn an objection to reconciliation.

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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. If we had the rich pay for it the deficit would be fine,...
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Please explain why?
provision shall be considered to be extraneous if it increases, or would increase, net outlays, or if it decreases, or would decrease, revenues during a fiscal year after the fiscal years covered by such reconciliation bill or reconciliation resolution.

If I read that correctly, it states during a fiscal year AFTER the reconciliation bill. Doesn't that give a one year to get the system up & running before that rule applies? If it were done in January, which is only 2+ weeks away, they would have until 2011 to get it working?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. My guess is that the OMB would have to tally the legislation
Actually a new OMB report is supposed to come out soon, although the reconciliation resolution would/could be different.

My worries about the reconciliation resolution is that someone would oppose it and we would be back to needing 60 votes to overturn the objection... which we would not have.

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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. If people BUY into it then decificits wouldn't be an issue. It'd be REAL hard for someone to muster
...60 votes to go against a reconciliation move.

Also, if you throw in the farm and run against conservatives taking away the barn door then conservatives would have NOTHING
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Senate chair would say not it's not an move on, also they can do cost control via reconcilation and
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 10:00 PM by uponit7771
...pass the regulations via normal process and we get what we want no?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. The 60 votes to overturn an objection to reconciliation brings us back to where we are now
We could get cost controls perhaps, but it would be a far cry from all the other possible legislation that we could amend down the road.

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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Unnn, I'm not getting the 60 votes thing...I'm just sayin we can still have the best of both worlds.
...we can get the reform passed with 60 and then use reconciliation to get cost controls passed later.

Also, if dems throw the house into cost controls via reconciliation then they don't have to worry about it being stripped later...hell, they can run off of it in 2010 to get the dem base out.

The scary reThugs are tryin to take your health care away...

Seems simple but dems will find a way to fuck it up...
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. You can pass legislation with a reconciliation resolution with 51 votes, but...
...if someone (like Lieberman) objects to the reconciliation resolution due to it having "extraneous" costs (via the Byrd Rule), you need 60 votes to overturn the objection.

I would suggest that we would lose the Blue Dogs, who would side with Republicans alleging that they are for "saving money" or some other claptrap.

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. That's not what it says
"Any Senator may raise a procedural objection to a provision believed to be extraneous, which will then be ruled on by the presiding Senator. A vote of 60 Senators is required to overturn the ruling."

The objecting Senator and the presiding Senator are not the same person. The presiding Senator rules on the objection, yes or no, and that ruling stands unless a vote of 60 Senators overturns it. I would guess that the Senate majority leader would control who the presiding Senator is at all times, and if the Senate leadership backed the reconciliation resolution I would suspect the presiding Senator would be predisposed toward rejecting an objection raised by a Senator claiming that a provision is extraneous. That would then force the objecting Senator to line up 60 votes supporting his or her objection in order to over rule the ruling made by the presiding Senator. Even Lieberman would have a tough time pulling that one off.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I was aware the objecting Senator and the presiding Senator are different people
Proving that the legislation is not "extraneous" by the presiding Senator would be a challenge. The Byrd Rule puts any legislation that involves increasing the deficit (like nearly all health care reform--which we need) into a corner that forces Senators to vote that no increases in federal outlays would happen.

I'd love the reconciliation resolution tactic to work, but I see a major logjam and failure happening if we go down that road.

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I will just add that the burden of proof falls on the objecting Senator to show ...
...that a provision is "extraneous". The legislation stays on track unless the presiding Senator becomes convinced that a provision is "extraneous" rather than the other way around. There is no need to prove that the legislation is not "extraneous", rather there is a need to "prove" to the presiding Senator otherwise in order to stop it with less than 60 votes, and that Senator in all likelyhood will be trusted with that position precisely because he or she is a trusted supporter of that legislation passing through the reconciliation process.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Would the presiding officer go against the finding of the parliamentarian?
Probably not.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. The parliamentarian is a process adviser
From Wiki:

"The Parliamentarian of the United States Senate is the official adviser to the United States Senate on the interpretation of Standing Rules of the United States Senate and parliamentary procedure.

As the Presiding Officer of the Senate may not be fully aware of the parliamentary situation currently facing the Senate, staff from the Senate Parliamentarian's office sit on the Senate dais to advise the Presiding Officer on how to respond to inquiries and motions from Senators."

In other words the parliamentarian would advise if a challenge was in order and followed Senate proper procedures, but would not engage on the content of that challenge.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. It has always been precedent to defer to the Parliamentarian's ruling.
Honestly, you're better off going nuclear option. At least if you're going to kill precedent, do it in a more constructive way.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. The OMB report should shed some light on how it could be painted as "extraneous"
So many reports on how different bills would increase the deficit here but mend it there have been out that it's dizzying.

A fresh clean (and fair) OMB report could either make the reconciliation resolution tactic attached with the Byrd Rule be feasible or (chances are...) make the idea just another dead end.

We'll see.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. You missed the word "not".
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 11:01 AM by ieoeja
It is only extraneous:

"(1) if it does not produce a change in outlays or revenues;"


Furthermore, "in 1996 the Senate's Republican majority adopted a precedent to apply reconciliation to any legislation affecting the budget, even legislation that would increase the deficit."


So the arguments you suggest they would make in favor of it being extraneous were already decided in 1996 ... by the Republicans!


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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes Dr. Dean, tell us how we get around the Byrd Amendment?
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SpartanDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Use it to pass just the public option/buy in
you can pass the regulations,etc through regular order
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Right, I don't know why this hasnt been done yet it's one of the reason progressives are frustrated
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. Here's how to do it (Medicare for everyone)
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 11:32 PM by andym
One can open Medicare to everyone, but without the normal subsidies that 65+ get. Make everyone pay the full cost-- then there is no budgetary issue. (perhaps could even charge a bit more than costs and make Medicare solvent with new influx of money) It's apparently about somewhere between 400-600/month. No family plan though-- might be tricky to get that.

But, if they pass the crappy first part of the bill, then they can put Medicare onto the Exchange with the rest of the options and it would still be revenue neutral (since the new subsidies are already allocated there).

Done.





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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
20. K&R
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
21. Even as a militant anti-geek, I'm amazed that no-one included this gentleman yet -


(Seriously, I think you're right.) (But yet and still.)
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. The senate chair (chosen by the senate majority leader) would overrule the objecting senator and....
...then the objecting senator would need 60 votes for filibuster...that aint happening.

Reconciliation can happen right now if Reid would step up...

Lieberman is a red herring, Reid is the real issue here....
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
29. READ HARDER PLEASE
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 02:58 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
The presiding senator (aka the chair) is always Dem.

A pug objects that a resolution to name the Care Bears the funnest bears is not properly budgetary.

The chair rules that the resolution IS properly budgetary. (It isn't, but that's the ruling.)

The pugs then have to get 60 votes to overturn that ruling

It's not 60 votes to UPHOLD a ruling.
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Pushed To The Left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
30. Pass the bill, THEN try the reconciliation on Medicare expansion and/or public option n/t
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