Yes iit brings in 30 million people -- by force and into scam insurance

[Armstead]

This line drives me crazy by apologists for this health care disaster.

"It will bring in 30 million into the insurance system."

yeah. By force of law and into private fucking insurance many cannot afford, even with "subsidies" (tax payments to abusive insurance corporations).

And any segment who are in poverty could have been brought in by a less intrusive form of safety net that did not also ;punish the working poor who fall outside the parameters.

It's not helping everyone by making health care affordable. It is force marching us into the iron grip of private insurance.

[ananda]

1. The bill is nuts all right.. and very sinister.

nt

[HuckleB]

4. Really?

How is it very sinister?

Please read: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/illusions-and-bitterness/

[Armstead]

11. Mandates without a ;public program are sinister

You are forced to fork over a significant share of your income to pay a corporatioin for privatye insurance.

It is not based on a percentage of income like taxes or Social Security. It is whatever the market will bear.

You are not ;participating in a public funding pool, but a for-profit enterprise whose investors and executives make obscene profits. Those obscene profits will get even bigger while ;people's incomes will get smaller.

That sucks.

Do it right or don't do it at all.

[HuckleB]

18. You're offering mere assumptions.

And failing to pay attention to the rest of the world, and to history, for that matter.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/illusions-and-bitterness/

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-treatment/the-left-playing-fire

[rhett o rick]

31. Arent you assuming the public will embrace this piece of garbage? nt

[HuckleB]

35. So, you think we should stick with the status quo, and that the public is all for that, too?

Cut the crap!

[rhett o rick]

42. If you wish to roll over for the republicans and the killer insurance companies, go ahead.

Leave me out. The public doesnt want the status quo. They clearly want a strong public option. This bill was written by the killer insurance industry and doesnt give the public what they want. And it will kill the Democrats chances in 2010.

[HuckleB]

44. You're rolling over.

But thanks for pretending otherwise.

[eleny]

2. exactly - it's a horror and americans won't stand for it

mark my words but we'll be marching next to teabaggers before this is over. it's a terrible thought but i feel it's true. this is going to unite us all.

[HuckleB]

5. "A horror?"

OK. That's not the reality.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/illusions-and-bitterness/

[eleny]

12. I don't give a fuck what Krugman has to say

He doesn't live with my family situation where there's chronic illnesses. We'll be at the mercy of insurance companies who would be able to raise premiums making coverage just about unaffordable. And that's a horror.

Go peddle your smug crap with someone else, smart ass.

[HuckleB]

15. Uh huh.

No one else deals with chronic illness?

And you understand the current proposal completely, right?

And you're fine leaving things the way they are?

Hmmmmmmmmm. That sounds smug to me.

:shrug:

[eleny]

19. Premiums without caps and free reign regarding preexisting conditions is allowed

Those alone are killers.

Take the last word as I'm done with your brand of heartless ignorance.

[HuckleB]

22. Your assumptions continue.

Did you write this legislation in its final form?

Apparently...

:eyes:

[rhett o rick]

27. Seems to me that Krugman assumes that 10 million people will welcome the mandate. I dont agree.

The mandate will kill the Democrats chances in 2010 if not 2012. Forcing citizens to buy insurance feeds directly into the right-wing fears of government control.

[HuckleB]

28. So you prefer the status quo, and you hope that most Americans do, too?

Well, that's your choice.

[rhett o rick]

37. The ole false dilemma. The only choices are garbage or nothing? keep your damn garbage.

I will fight for a decent health care bill. This bill will not solve our health insurance problems. this bill will force 30 million people to buy from the very bastards that are sucking us dry. What you gona do when they just say no. No mandatory insurance w/o a decent PO.

[HuckleB]

39. Hardly.

You know nothing about this bill, and you understand about how it would change the current system. Further, you know nothing about how other systems moved forward. You want a perfect system from the word go. That is not possible, and you choose to screw over tens of millions of Americans because of your crap perfectionism.

Inform yourself, and then get back to the discussion. Cut the knee-jerk crap.

[rhett o rick]

51. Discussion over.

If you think you can carry on a dialog with statements like "cut the crap" or "cut the knee-jerk crap", then you are mistaken.

It is entirely fair for you to post without providing any specific facts or links, but dont criticize others for doing the same.

Yes we could accept this bill, which I am familiar with, hoping to build on it, BUT WE DONT HAVE TO. Those bastards in Washington DC work for us. We need to tell them to keep trying they havent got it yet.

[KrR]

7. What exactly do you agree with teabaggers about? n/t

[eleny]

10. I'm saying that if this bill passes as it's written now....

.... it won't just be liberals marching against it. Americans of all political stripes will be out there.

[HuckleB]

16. Tell it to the Europeans!

Why aren't they marching?

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-treatment/the-left-playing-fire

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/illusions-and-bitterness/

[rhett o rick]

29. Because they have decent plans far superior to this garbage Senate bill.

In Europe it is against the law for private insurance for primary care. That's why they aint marching.

[HuckleB]

30. Thanks for making stuff up.

WOW!

[rhett o rick]

43. Really? You think the Europeans are unhappy with their health care? Wow. nt

[HuckleB]

45. Wow!

Hello? Is anyone home? Thanks for showing everyone that you know nothing about this issue. You even fail to respond to the actual content of my posts. Again. WOW!

:shrug:

[Armstead]

32. Inform yourself fellow. European plans are a lot more enlightened thanm this crap bill

They provide strong public programs and controls over ;private insurance in exchange for mandates.

Each country is somewhat different, but none of them rely totally on expensive private insurance as their basis.

[HuckleB]

34. Yes, they are further along.

And they will always be further along, if we defeat ourselves, because we fall for the old perfectionism BS!

Read what I posted before you reply, please.

[Armstead]

40. I did read what you posted and I still say it's full of bull

The author himself said that those countries have protections and regulations that the US bill does not have.

You miss my point. I believe in a single payer system as the basis of healthcare -- a universal basic coverage program run by the government and paid for like taxes and Social Security based on income, and/or opening up Medicare for everyone.

So In am not against the concepts of mandated coverage for universal care.

But the way this bill is structured totally undermines any efforts to even move in that direction because it combines the WORST aspects of "free market" insurance and "nanny state socialism" without the benefits.

[HuckleB]

41. Yeah, but those protections weren't always there.

Things don't just go BOOM! You want a perfect system NOW! That's not going to happen, and it's not a justification for failing to improve the system we have.

[Armstead]

46. The bad stuff in this bill underm ines the good stuff and sets back reform

I don't expect a perfect system instantly.

But I do not weant to see the current system made even worse -- and I don't want to see real constructive reform undermines byb a piece of crap that is going to tfrurn people against that concept.

I can pretty much guarantee that if this passes as it is now, the blowback against further reform will be immense.

[HuckleB]

48. You don't even what "bad stuff" is in the bill.

You're responding to your own imagination and propaganda.

[Armstead]

17. Needless impingements on personal freedom to benefit the elite

I don't like or agree with teabaggers hardly at all.

But in this case, they have a point, where your freedom is taken away and you are forced to pay a large chunk of income by force of law to private corporations

[HuckleB]

47. Knee-jerk BS cliches don't help anyone but the elite.

When will you figure that out?

[Armstead]

50. You bore me

[Goldstein1984]

13. Someone in another thread was arguing that just marching and

not towing the party line MAKES you a teabagger.

I don't get it. Motive has to count for something.

[TheWraith]

14. Allying with the teabaggers? Well, Obama-haters have to stick together.

Seriously, I am SO looking forward the the massive, piled plate of crow a lot of DUers are going to have to eat. Those of us who haven't lost our minds are going to be owed a shitload of apologies.

[eleny]

23. Given how the bill is written and the trajectory of this process...

... you're way overdue in the apologies department.

Take the last word as I'm sure you feel the need. Goodnight.

[HuckleB]

36. How is the bill written?

Do you have any idea?

[ProSense]

3. This is pure silliness. n/t

[HuckleB]

6. Yup.

[Armstead]

24. Why:?

All you do is trot out unthinking apologies for this shit. Every time it gets worse and shittier you turn up the volume without ever really addressing anything.

Please tell me honestly why you think it is good to force people to buy private insurance at extortionist market rates? Please explain why forced mandates for private insurance -- and no real price controls -- is a good thing?

Please tell me why if they are going to impose mandates that it is a good thing NOT to compensate for that with a public option or ability to buy into Medicare or have any other public system.

Don't just post someone else's thoughts. Explain in your own words why it is "silly" to object to the way they have botched this.

[Dragonfli]

49. No one has been able to answer your concerns so far - the apologists have no honest defense

for this corporate inspired insurance protection racket.

I know as I have been asking the same questions and all I get are vague, "there is good stuff in this bill" or "If you can't afford it, the subsidies will fix everything" talking point mantras.

No one has yet addressed the absurdity of this proposed program:
The Insurance Companies want to run a health protection racket that requires everyone in the neighborhood to pay up or they won't get to see a doctor. If you do not wish to pay Vinnie for "protection", Uncle Sam will provide the muscle to force you to pay.

These thugs don't treat illness, dress wounds or perform medical tests, but you have to pay them anyway, and just like any gangster running a protection racket, they provide no service yet you are under threat to pay them as much as they want, according to their terms or get your legs broken.

Anyone that would promote such an idea has nothing honest to defend it with because it is vile.
I question the motives of any apologists that would try to argue me into promoting an agenda that will directly cause harm to myself and others. I am not a republican, I care about people and don't agree with selling them out and myself with them.

Fuck them and their anti-working class pro-corporate agenda.
:hi:

[Dinger]

8. Good Question Being Asked Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7248985

[Armstead]

26. Very good question and I'd support any court challenge

[dflprincess]

9. And while forcing us to buy insurance

it does nothing to guarantee access to care. If all you can afford is a high out of pocket policy, you still don't get to see the doctor.

[Goldstein1984]

20. This isn't about being an Obama hater. It's about

not accepting a healthcare bill that hurts hurts people and puts money into the pockets of those already hurting people.

[rhett o rick]

21. Just say no. No mandatory insurance w/o a public plan. nt

[Prism]

25. It's like a kidnapper saying he's providing you with food and shelter

Then he's astonished that you have the temerity to be unhappy about the situation.

It's absurd.

[rhett o rick]

38. More like a vampire giving you food so he can continue to drain your blood. nt

[jberryhill]

33. We Have Increased Religious Diversity And Freedom In Cuba

...by resettling a bunch of Muslims there.