What the hell is going on in Massachusetts?

[vaberella]

Okay, so I'm not understanding what the hell is going on with Dems there.

This will not only derail and disrupt the President's 2012 presidential run. It will fuck up our chances to take over the House and get that super majority in the Senate. We had owned the discourse, we had set the page where Dems were on the side of the people and we were winning this.

Then the Dems in Massachusetts go and fuck up the discourse. Fox News is going to be running on this like no other. Because these stupid Dems are now doing exactly what the Republicans are doing. They just voted to strip the rights of Union workers. What the fuck is going on?

Were they not paying attention to what was going on in Wisconsin? These are not Dems. These people are Republicans passing as Democrats. I can't believe this is the case. The firefighters in Mass are now turning against the congressional Dems and our national discourse is fuckin' ruined because of these idiots.


Can Mass people let me know what the fuck happened? And if these assholes say anything about not knowing what was in the bill...well I'm sorry I want them fired and voted out. This is ridiculous. Everything was going good---we had America thinking these Republicans are the evil incarnate and now we have a slew of rogue Dems who has really hit us hard.


Jesus, I'm so angry right now.

Here is the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=578795&mesg_id=578795

[RandomThoughts]

1. They have been exposed.

And they see things backwards, so they are trying to close up any group that wont let them control by edict.

[vaberella]

3. I'm not really sure what you're talking about. n/t

[RandomThoughts]

4. hmm.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=663153&mesg_id=663163

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=276948&mesg_id=277035


Side note, there are those that think I am on some other side, and they use what I say with game mentality, as if they can use what I say, reversed against the ideas I support.

You see that alot, they see what I say as information from interrogation, not a table set.

[fascisthunter]

2. .... they are fucking liars

[MercuryRepeater]

5. Deval Patrick will never sign that into law.

Thank God for Democratic Governors.

[Fuddnik]

6. Don't be too sure about that.

He was more in favor of making a show of negotiating first. Then bring out the hammer.

[louslobbs]

7. I suggest that Governor Patrick think hard about putting a pen to that piece of shit Democratic kill

killing Union bill and putting his death signature upon it. That will end his career as well. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard this news. I'll thank 'god for a Democratic Governor, once he shreds the bill that the fools send to his desk. Morans.
Lou

[seaglass]

15. He's not running again - no skin off his nose. He's been proposing this since January. n/t

[louslobbs]

25. Thanks for the info, so if he signs it, just another fake, phony and fraud. I get it. Thanks

Lou

[vaberella]

23. That's not the point. That a was a democratic run house that did that.

And that is going to his us hard. Those are dems who voted for stripping union rights.

[TayTay]

8. The Dems want to limit health care costs in MA

Because the system used is not working for a lot of the cities and towns.

This goes to a perception problem, btw, that people have about Massachusetts. MA is a tolerant state, it is not a purely liberal one, however. The negotiations between the State, the Governor and the public sector unions will result in an agreement to control the costs of health care. It will not strip unions of collective bargaining rights.

[louslobbs]

10. Well, let's hope you are correct and thanks for that post.

Lou

[TayTay]

13. It is very much up in the air right now

There is a severe problem with rising health care costs, even here in the home of RomneyCare. Costs for current and retired public sector workers are rising at an alarming rate. My husband is involved in negotiations with union officials on school related matters and the negotiations can get quite difficult. The legislation, not passed or signed yet, btw, tries to address an imbalance in the law that says that 75% of a union's members have to vote to accept changes in the co-payment rates.

Massachusetts is a split state on many issues. There are a lot of people who are "liberal" on issues that don't cost anything. However, there are many, many times when Republicans or conservatives get votes for their agenda because of conservative tax and fiscal policies.

This issue is a tough one for Democrats in this state. You try and maximize benefits for as many employees as possible and keep up the number of personnel needed to provide community services. Well, yeah, but these are bad fiscal times and the way we approach union negotiations is going to have to change with the times. However, that is not license to get rid of unions or disregard the law on bargaining rights. We need to adjust, not destroy.

[seaglass]

16. I don't know what you mean by "even here" from what my understanding is Romneycare was

an attempt to get everyone covered - not an effort at cost-savings. The cost savings will be on the backs of unions it appears.

My husband is a firefighter in MA and I am very aware of the attitude toward public unions in MA - it is not so politically difficult to take a stand against unions in this state - especially AFTER an election when the workers and money is no longer a pressing need.

[TayTay]

18. Exactly so and that is a real problem

There are less and less jobs around in the private sector that involve unions. They are still there, but a much diminished part of the MA workforce.

It is hoped that the costs savings will not be borne just on the backs of union members, public or private sector. However, there also has to be some honest negotiations on health care costs. I am in favor of opening up the books so that each side can see what the other is talking about in terms of costs.

My brother is a police officer. He is upset about the loss of the Quinn bill perks that were negotiated by unions. Many towns are doing layoffs of vital personnel because of lack of funds. There is a point where some municipalities are seeking concessions on fees and costs so that personnel can be saved. Some union response has been that layoffs are preferable to disturbing or negotiating costs. This also cannot continue and it makes a negative argument for the voters, who might otherwise be held as sympathetic to the union cause.

[louslobbs]

27. Thank you for informing me with a well thought out post. Knowing that info, the Dems must

continuously express their support for unions, do it often and do it loud and clear, and they must be their word about it. Integrity is one of the most important things our reps can have (not many do anymore) and if you are not your word, then what good are you? I want to hear Democrats talking about protecting unions like we hear Thugs talking about their phony concern over cutting the deficit they created.
Lou

[ProudDad]

42. It's actually Romney/Obama care

and it ain't gonna fucking work...

'Cause Enhanced and Improved Medicare for All was taken "off the table" BY DEMOCRATS!!!

Unless the profit is taken out of health care financing and strict price controls and negotiating power is put in the hands of the People, the costs of USAmerican Sick Care will continue to rise geometrically...

It's corporate rule, stupid... (you're not stupid, I'm just paraphrasing Mr. Clinton)...

[vaberella]

24. So Rachel's episode was wrong? n/t

[Arkana]

31. Exactly. This is not Wisconsin redux. This bill still has to get through the State Senate too,

and considering the reactions to it passing the house there are more than a few people in that chamber probably reconsidering.

Also, Patrick said this will not be the final version of the bill. Is this ideal? Hell no. Is Deval Patrick the new Scott Walker? No, and it's dishonest to say that he is.

[louslobbs]

9. What? Now can we look forward to Dem Crazies doing crazy shit to take the heat of the lunatic pubes

Insane and idiotic......I'm just as angry as you are Vaberella. Thanks for the post.
Lou

[bvar22]

11. Massachusetts is a microcosm of the "Centrist" National Democratic Party.

What they say
is very different from what they do.

After the performance of the White House in Arkansas and Pennsylvania in the 2010 Primaries,
and more recently in Wisconsin,
I'm surprised ANY union would support the Democratic Party.



Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
"By their WORKS you will know them,"

[Broderick]

12. Hey everyone look over there

Ya got Wisconsin. You got chumps. There's birth certificates.

Don't look behind the curtain.


Been saying some things are a distraction and other states were doing worse things.

[seaglass]

14. Deval Patrick proposed this in January. This should not be a surprise to Obama.

Gov. Deval Patrick heads to Washington D.C., will testify on health care, appear on ABC's "This Week"

"Patrick, who has indicated he plans to play a major public role in President Barack Obama's re-election campaign over the next two years, will see the president three times on his trip to Washington, including once at a black-tie gala at the White House on Sunday night that Patrick will attend with his wife Diane."

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/02/gov_deval_patrick_heads_to_was_1.html

Deval Patrick union-buster...(from January)

In a turnabout, governor breaks with unions on health care plans

"Yesterday, Patrick joined House Speaker Robert A. DeLeo in calling for a significant curtailing of organized labor’s influence over the health care plans of municipal employees, retirees, and elected officials, proposing that cities and towns receive far greater power to enact major changes without union assent."

http://articles.boston.com/2011-01-22/news/29345908_1_public-employee-unions-labor-unions-health-care

On edit: Obviously this is not all Deval Patrick - many, many Dems are going along with this including my rep who will never get another vote from me. I am just extremely pissed off that I enthusiastically voted for Deval Patrick last November and then he goes and pulls this shit.

[vaberella]

29. I don't think you're understanding my point.

Actually Deval Patrick stated he would not vote for this. However, my point is this. This doesn't ONLY affect Obama, it affects the standing of ALL dems on this issue. Are you not getting this? This massively hurts us politically and gives the Republicans a bit of a wiggle room to rant and rave and show that we're not any different from them.

[seaglass]

45. sorry, after the last go round with you and your lack of fact checking I'm going to have

to ask you to prove it. Please provide Deval Patrick's quote that he will not vote for it.

No shit that it hurts Dems politically including Obama as well it should.

[Armstead]

17. I live in Massachusetts..,..For the sake of balance, there IS another side to this

First off, let me say that I am not in favor of the extent to which they are engaging in what appears to be jumping on the "union busting bandwagon"..... Politically, it does undermine the position of Democrats as defenders of workers -- both nationally and on the state level. I agree with Rachael Maddow last nite, when she described this as a typical example of Democrats looking a political gift horse in the mouth and shooting themselves in the foot and "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" and appearing to emulate the GOP.

However, there is also a very real financial problem that caused this. It is NOT similar to places like Wisconsin where you have a GOP governor and legislature that is finding excuses to bust the employees unions to satisfy the right-wing and GOP ideological and political agenda.

The cost of health coverage and other benefits for municipal employees IS a very real -- and in some cases very serious -- financial problem for local governments here. My small city, for example, has its fiscal back to the wall..And in recent years, property taxes have had to be goosed several times just to stay even. And by property taxes, I don't mean just the wealthy. People with small homes are finding it harder and harder to stay in their homes because of the rising property taxes.

Employee benefits are a big factor in this. And, to be honest, the unions are sometimes intractable in their demands in negotiations. That's not a criticism, because they are trying to protect the legitimate interests of their members. However, it also places greater and greater pressures on local government.

The actions on the state level, thus, can be seen as a legitimate attempt to correct this problem, and avert further ones.

The Democrats in Boston DID go too far in this, and they are engaging in a form of defacto neutering of unions and their members. And that was fucking stupid and insensitive.

Hopefully, wiser heads will prevail and find a solution that does balance the very real budget crisis facing local governments here with the rights of workers. Time will tell.

However it is also important to recognize in this that it is NOT similar to the GOP states where governors and legislatures are just using excuses to screw unions. It is a matter of messing up in a valid attempt to assist the state's governments.

[seaglass]

19. That sounds so pragmatic. Who could possibly object? n/t

[Armstead]

20. It IS a pragmatic problem -- that the state Democrats handled dumbly

But stupidity is different than the deliberate destruction that people like Scott Walker are pursing.

[seaglass]

21. Yes, I am very aware of the fiscal problems we are facing because we have been feeling the effects

for years. I had hoped that with both Obama and Patrick in office we would see SOME improvement but that was not to be.

I am not as forgiving as you. These pols are not stupid, they know what side the screeching public is on and it is not the side of the public unions. It was EASY for them.

[Armstead]

22. Maybe so...But I'm not sure there is a big anti-union backlash, at least not here

I think people are just frustrated at the overall situation and looking at anything they can blame, and any "quick fixes" that may seem to appear.

And experience has shown that -- although there are some really good exceptions -- Massachusetts legislators are not necessarily the brightest bulbs in the pack.

[Mass]

26. Obama has known that for a while (assuming he is not an idiot).

For the story, read Armstead and TayTay. They both have a very good explanation of the problem. A real issue of costs forcing cities and towns to fire people and some unions preferring firing people than lose any benefits that would lower healthcare.

This said, DeLeo chose a clumsy way to solve that, but I suspect this is in order to get the unions to negotiate something. Not necessarily the best way to do this, but it is what it is.

May be, if we had more taxes because Obama had pushed for taxes for the wealthy, there would be more money for states and therefore for cities and towns. But Dems have waiting until after the election to cast this vote and it does not seem as if the WH pushed very much against that.

[vaberella]

28. I don't understand what Obama has to do with Massachusetts politics to even be brought up.

I would assume that Kerry would have a bigger influence on what's going on. But I can see how this can affect all aspects of Democratic reelection, including the President's run.

[Exilednight]

36. You're right. Extending the Bush tax cuts put our government funding in jeopardy and

played right into Republicans hands to gut funding of government functions.

Yet, somehow these states crying poverty will find money to outsource these jobs to private corporations which are going to reap huge profits from our tax dollars.

[Arkana]

30. It's bad, but not Wisconsin bad.

[vaberella]

34. I don't think people will make that difference when presented with the issue.

Looking at Rachel's show---I don't understand how different it is.

[Arkana]

38. Because it doesn't remove the right to collective bargaining completely.

It only restricts it in the area of negotiating health care costs.

[Ramulux]

32. None of them are going to be re-elected

and they have to know it. Which makes me wonder what the fuck they were thinking when they did it? I think there is a lot more to this story and some weird stuff is going to come out. I cant understand why these dems are just throwing their jobs away.

[vaberella]

33. I agree with you. That's why I asked for some Massachusetts' opinion.

I get the feeling there is far more to this issue that we don't know. Or I don't understand why they would vote for this.

[Armstead]

35. Welcome to Massachusetts

History has shown, however, that idiotic behavior by politicians does not lead to ouster.

[TayTay]

37. This is a pretty good summary of the bill

from the point of view of it's backers in the MMA (Mass Municipal Association.) This org represents cities and towns and has a conservative lean to it, as do many of the cities and towns it represents.

http://tinyurl.com/4xzwq8z

This is a counter-letter from the MA chapter of the AFLCIO President to membership regarding this issue:

http://www.massaflcio.org/node/196671


This is not an easy issue in MA. We do have a history of strong support for unions. The heart of where this issue is having effect is in the outer ring of smaller cities and towns outside of Boston. That is important. This is the area that voted for Scott Brown in the last election. This is the area of MA that elects Repubs and conservative/moderate Democrats. This issue goes to the heart of the split in the Democratic Party in MA, a split that has been in the Party for a long, long time.

[lonestarnot]

39. Isn't that why unions are withdrawing money from dems and dumping into local recall efforts?

[TayTay]

40. I haven't seen any recalls yet in MA

but it is still early in this legislative process. We shall see what unfolds.

[ProudDad]

41. The "nicer" of the 2 right-wings of the Corporate Business/War Pary

Strikes again...

There's a class war on folks and we're fuckin' losing!!!


On Edit: and for those of you who point to the rising costs of USAmerican Sick Care...that's something that CANNOT be solved at the local or state level NOR at the Federal level without making the decision that the ENTIRE INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD ALREADY HAS!!!

To wit:

1) Health Care is a Right that everyone deserves...

2) We'll find a way to pay for it that REMOVES the profit motive...

And every country that's made those decisions has better Health Care than USAmerica does!

Improved and Enhanced Medicare for All

Remove the profiteers and leeches of the insurance mafia and Big PhRMA and the equipment manufaturers (G.E., etc. who pay no god damn taxes anyway) from the Health Care System!

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

43. Patrick was on Bill Maher last night and said he will not sign this bill into law.

[former9thward]

44. The bill he supports is no better