So it looks like Howard Dean has been exposed

[Cali_Democrat]

The emperor has no clothes. It looks like Howard Dean never proposed a public plan in 2004 when he was running for President. There wasn't even a co-op....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x63293

It just goes to show you that it's a lot easier to flap your gums when you aren't the President of the Unites States. The current health plan being discussed is 10x better than anything Howard Dean proposed when he ran for President.

Howard Dean swiftboated himself in 2004 when his campaign for president collapsed spectacularly. Now it looks like he is swiftboating himself yet again.

Some people never learn. His abrasive style may work as a pundit on TV, but when it comes to governing a country like the United States, he would fail spectacularly just like his campaign did in 2004.

[Dinger]

1. Unrec (nt)

[Larkspur]

3. Ditto

There are videos of Obama saying he was for singler payer before he was against it.

We can play the same game with Obama fanatics.

[IndianaGreen]

6. Same here. unrec!

[NJmaverick]

9. You find the TRUTH that unpleasant?

[Dinger]

11. Well At Least I'm Honest

I am going to try and state if I choose to unrec a post, instead of just doing a "silent" unrec. I'm doin' it, for the next 24 hrs. Sort of an experiment.

[hlthe2b]

25. Unrec (to infinity, if I could)

We seem to be having a lot of visitation today.....:eyes:

[lapfog_1]

Happily unrec'ing this piece of shit. - n/t

[Forkboy]

2. Unrec

[NJmaverick]

10. Why would you unrec a fact?

[Forkboy]

20. You blew your chance for us to have any honest conversations.

Your love for intellectual honesty evaporated the other day and you exposed yourself as a total hypocrite. I'm not wasting my time on you. Have a great evening.

[snagglepuss]

26. +1

[NJmaverick]

41. LOL! I am so wounded to be flamed by the irrational hatred crowd

PS- points for all the hard word you put into this post:rofl:

[NJmaverick]

38. You failed to answer a simple question

I guess you would rather attack me personally than to admit that you have a personal agenda that will not be swayed by FACT (or reason).


I will give you points for your Rove approved projection tactics. Shame your emotions have caused you to lose your limited integrity.

Oh and have a nice night, try to sleep well:hi:

[asdjrocky]

60. I could not have said it better Forkboy.

[jgraz]

129. Link?

Pretty please? :D

[Dinger]

15. Hey, I Think I've Started A Trend?

?

[IndianaGreen]

27. I think it is a very good trend, not hiding behind an anonymous unrec

[NJmaverick]

Yes an open hatred for fact and reason

[brentspeak]

4. Another unrec -- someone pointed out that Dean's plan DID NOT INCLUDE A MANDATE n/t

[Zodiak]

121. That was me

I thought I had countered this meme yesterday by posting EXACTLY what Howard Dean proposed. Some of it was better than this bill, some of it was worse.

I guess starting a new thread to float this trial balloon again is the counter-strategy to actually addressing my post yesterday,

[ima_sinnic]

5. no, here's what he proposed :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=63293&mesg_id=63441

get your facts straight.

oh, and by the way, epic UNREC

[dana_b]

29. thanks

that was a great post

[sandnsea]

52. Read my response

The interpretation is whack.

[Botany]

7. Please Dr. Dean's first love is medicine and he knows of what he speaks

His 50 state strategy in 2006 & 2008 was brilliant and he very supportive of HCR when it
had the medicare buy in.

[NJmaverick]

14. Bill Clinton knows more about health care reform at the federal level and he is against this

[napi21]

28. I dearly love Bill Clinton, and in some ways I wish he was back,

but Bill was a corporatist too! Remember NAFTA, and that was when he had a Dem Congress!

[NJmaverick]

32. That's a rather weak effort to dismiss a man who is doing great works

and has the brilliance and experience as to not be dismissed in this manner.

[Botany]

40. I am sorry but who got comprehensive health care insurance reform done?

n/t

[NJmaverick]

56. At the much more difficult federal level no one yet

[Botany]

64. Well he got more done then Clinton ever did.

And to all the Kids in VT who got to see a Doctor it doesn't matter if it was on the state or Federal level.

[NJmaverick]

66. Running a small state is pretty easy, turning a record deficit into a record surplus....

[Botany]

71. Nice cross over! Way to change the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPr4oe81ZgE

[NJmaverick]

72. You claimed he got more done than Clinton, so where is the change?

[Botany]

75. whatever

[Fire1]

83. In Vermont. n/t

[polmaven]

59. When did Dr. Dean

get comprehensive health care done on a FEDERAL LEVEL?

[Botany]

65. When did Bill Clinton get comprehensive HCR done

.... on the STATE LEVEL?

[polmaven]

73. Take another look

at the post to which you were responding. It CLEARLY speaks about the FEDERAL LEVEL.

[pundaint]

110. Why, did Hillary educate him?

Bill was an excellent Republican right down to the unrepentant sex scandal.

[Freddie Stubbs]

128. It's been years since Dean has precticed medicine

[tularetom]

8. We wouldn't have a Democratic majority in Congress and probably no Dem in the WH

if it weren't for Howard Dean.

So as far as I'm concerned he is free to say whatever he wants.

And I can tell you this - whatever he proposed he would have stood behind. And he never would have jumped backward through his own asshole to accommodate an asshole like Lieberman.

[old mark]

13. I respect Dean - more so each day-but I am not sure we have

a Democrat in the White House.

mark

[snagglepuss]

33. Hammer meet nail.

:applause:

[demmiblue]

12. unrec

[SIMPLYB1980]

16. K&R

[grantcart]

17. How is it possibly helpful to attack Dr. Dean ?

If you feel Dean's recent remarks are wrong you should address the substance of his remarks.


This tactic is simply MTP Gotchism. It begs the question of context. Possibly the answer to your question is that in 2004 Dean was using all of his energy on fighting the Iraq war and didn't want to divide the message with another divisive issue when he was in the middle of that heroic battle.

[still_one]

21. Maybe if they evaluated Dean's remarks instead of trashing him, they could actually

rebuild this bill and come up with something that will help people

[SIMPLYB1980]

24. Just using the same tactics deployed against us.

Seems fare to me.

[Forkboy]

37. Your spelling makes Freepers look like mensa students.

[SIMPLYB1980]

42. So Forkboy how did the war funding vote go?

[Moochy]

47. Why are you such a ....?

[NJmaverick]

50. A person that doesn't tolerate childish insults?

[Forkboy]

61. LOL....." that's the best you can do flameboy"

Yeah, real mature. :rofl:

[spoony]

62. ...like "flameboy"? nt

[NJmaverick]

45. that's the best you can do flameboy

:boring:

[Forkboy]

53. And is "flameboy" the best YOU can do?

I suspect it is.

[QC]

84. Better flameboy than fanboy, don't you think?

[NJmaverick]

95. Was that you before you went to see Howard Dean?

[QC]

96. You are being very intellectually dishonest tonight.

To say nothing of your venom and vitriol.

[NJmaverick]

97. Hard to take the poster of a fanboy picture very seriously

sorry you lost your credibility on that one, you can't now pretend to be something you are not.

[QC]

98. It's very hard to take a fanboy seriously, too. n/t

[grantcart]

44. Dr. Dean is using facts and reason

I gave you a perfectly logical reason why Dr. Dean did not address the questions 6 years ago that are the headlines today.


By the way Dr. Dean is one of us.

[NJmaverick]

48. One of who? The rational smart ones like Presdident's Clinton and Obama

are on the other side as is Paul Krugman.

the "us" seem to be on the losing side.

[Tom Rinaldo]

18. Look at what he did for health care in Vermont

Not bad I would say.

And Bill Clinton advanced Gay Rights in 1992 with "Don't Ask Don't Tell" but now that stands in the way. In 2004 there was no one on earth who believed it possible for Democrats to win the Presidency and both houses of Congress with commanding majorities. And we didn't you might recall. That was then, this is now.

[still_one]

19. Obviously you don't know anything about the healthcare system in Vermont

and the ignorance of your post shows

Dean never discredited himself, it was MSM misrepresenting what happened

If you saw an unedited account of that "scream", it was bullshit what how it was played it

but if you want to talk facts, look at what the current Senate version gives you:

1. No Single Payer

2. No public option

3. No expanded Medicare coverage

4. No drug re-importation

5. No cost controls

6. No renegotiation of drug prices

7. Capped annual coverage for care

8. Individual mandated coverage

9. Anti-trust exemption for insurance companies

10. A tax on middle class insurance plans

11. Taxes that start up in January, but benefits that don’t start until 2014

There is a very good reason why the a lot of Democrats, NOT just the liberals are pissed, but the moderate to progressive Democrats are pissed also

[Armstead]

22. Oh gish...head for the hills Howard you've been EXposed for your public position in 2004

jeeze I thought this was about some mistress or something.

[wryter2000]

31. He's so scared. n/t

n/t

[cali]

23. So what? 2004 was very different than 2008

[wryter2000]

30. Yeah, what a piker

He only got health coverage for every child in his state when he was governor. The man has no plan.

[Cali_Democrat]

39. You think he could do it for a country of 300 million?

He knew he couldn't. That's one reason why his health plan was so weak in 2004.

Governing the United States is A LOT different than governing Vermont.

[pundaint]

111. I think he would at least have given it a genuine effort. A genuine effort

plus a majority of public support as exists now, might have produced some actual Reform. Hell, he's already done more than Obama for making this a good bill.

[Botany]

55. Well, you can sleep through the Albert Einstein School of Medicine @ Yale

To use the terms "swiftboat" about Dr. Dean is pretty nasty.

[wryter2000]

78. I didn't use that word

You must be referring to another post. :hi:

[Botany]

81. sorry .... I was talking about the O.P.

[wryter2000]

127. No sweat

:pals:

[Milo_Bloom]

34. Wow, Epic Fail.

Howard Dean was the very first to admit that his plan WASN'T a solution it was a temporary stop gap. in fact he said it over and over and over and over and over again.

His entire proposal was "let's get everyone insured and THEN discuss what type of system we want".

What you are highlighting was only to be the first step in an actual process, unlike this abortion of a bill which claims to solve problems it doesn't actually address.

Ezra has gotten so much else wrong in this debate with his crackpot analysis, it is not surprising history has escaped him also.

[Fire1]

87. Epic fact. n/t

[dgibby]

35. Unrec.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

36. Oh god...

[Moochy]

43. Exposed? Really? Unrec

[eleny]

46. And President Obama has learned that it was easier flapping his gums during the campaign

You know, flapping about how bad mandates are, how good drug importation is and, oh, about shit like "hope".

Yes, much easier.

[BlueIdaho]

49. You are missing the point.

Dean struck a chord with a huge number of Democrats. The current bills stink and the folks responsible for selling them know it - you can hear it in their voices and you can see it in their eyes. The White House is in complete disarray and have completely lost the thread. Gibbs, Axelrod, and behind the scenes Rham are in panic mode for one simple reason, they know that both the House and Senate bills do not give Americans what they really want - Health Care Reform, these bills are simply insurance regulation bills, and bad ones at that.

[katsy]

51. unrec

in his own words:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009528315_dean24m.html

[asdjrocky]

54. Thank you katsy.

I knew this op was a bald faced lie.

[Starry Messenger]

57. Clearly you stand as an example to us all.

Both unvitriolic and fact-based! :sarcasm:

[QC]

86. And intellectually honest. Don't forget that one. n/t

[asdjrocky]

58. Unrecing because it's a lie.

[NJmaverick]

63. But it's not

[asdjrocky]

67. But it is.

It's been shown to be a lie in two different replies so far, in this one thread.

And like Forkboy, I've given up ever having a real conversation with you, because you defend lies. Reply all you'd like, but I'll give this lying thread no more of my time once I type this last word.

[bluedigger]

68. Unreccing your logic FAIL.

Any proposal made by Dean back in 2004 has NOTHING to do with invalidation of his criticism of current proposed legislation. That was then and this is now.

[hughee99]

69. Amen...

In order for one to be critical of the way Health Care Reform is turning out, reform that Obama DID promise in the primary and after his election, one must have run for president and proposed a public health care plan.

It's so much easier to flap your gums when you aren't the president, and it's good that we have good people to remind us of this. Someone needs to tell all these DUers who were critical of * to STFU since THEY weren't president (unless Jimmy Carter, Poppy, or the Big Dog are covert DUers, then it's okay for them to comment). :sarcasm:

Seriously, though, the argument that Dean didn't propose a public health care plan when he ran for the nomination in '04 (he never made it out of the primaries) and therefore has no authority to speak on this, is a loser. If this is the case, and this is a prerequisite (that one must have proposed this in a presidential primary in order to be critical about Obama's handling of it), then I think ONLY Dennis Kucinich can be critical of Obama. But he's saying basically the same thing Dean is.

[golddigger]

70. Unrec!

[jefferson_dem]

74. Rec and Kick.

:kick:

[DJ13]

76. Congrats, this has to set the unrec record

Try again?

lol

[NJmaverick]

77. To many the unrecs are the ones that suffered a major fail

shows they are unwilling to entertain the truth.

[Zenlitened]

85. You wouldn't know truth if it bit you in the filibuster.

Seriously, do you really believe you have even an ounce of credibility with anyone who pays attention?

:spray:

Face it, you're just not very good at this party-line message-enforcement game you appear to be playing.

Your posts lack subtlety (let alone facts) and just come across as variously ham-fisted, carping or just plain tiresome, repeating the same logical fallacies and outright lights over and over again.

Being "logical" is in some ways like being "cool." If you have to tell us you are... you probably aren't.

[NJmaverick]

90. LOL! I have plenty of credibility with intelligent and rational people

so I understand where you are coming from.

[Zenlitened]

101. Post over and over again that you're part of the "cool" crowd...

... and it becomes obvious to all that you're anything but.

The more you tell me about your intelligence and rationality (without ever actually demonstrating any of these qualities) the more you look like the 'Joe the Plumber' of the health care reform debate: A phony, and obviously in over his head.

:hi:

[girl gone mad]

107. Maybe you should quit kicking this thread.

You don't come off very well in any of the exchanges.

[dgibby]

82. Actually, I think that prize goes to someone else on this thread. n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

94. I refuse to follow the herd like a good sheep.

So sue me.

[dgibby]

79. Here:

Educate yourself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7249025

[AndrewP]

80. Unrec

[JamesA1102]

88. Very brave of you

to tell the truth about a DU god who most DUers follow without question like Rush's dittoheads.

[QC]

91. It takes no courage to post a STFU thread in GD:STFU. n/t

[dgibby]

92. "most DUers follow without question like Rush's dittoheads. "

Do you need a shovel or can you dig that hole all by yourself?

[JamesA1102]

109. The truth hurts doesn't it. nt

[Forkboy]

113. We'll let you know when you utter it.

[dgibby]

114. Damn, you're good! n/t

[JamesA1102]

123. Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they fail to see. nt

[dgibby]

115. What's the matter? Don't you like it here? n/t

[JamesA1102]

124. I love it here.

I just have my eyes open.

[dkf]

89. Big time unrecommend.

Hey I finally discovered what the unrecommend button is for.

[MissDeeds]

93. Sorry I can only unrec this once

:thumbsdown:

[kenny blankenship]

99. Unrec

[becxx]

100. I am totally disheartened by Obama

I am totally disheartened by Obama's handling of the health care issue and what seems to be the Senate compromises is totally unacceptable to me. I am disappointed to see Obama talking about accepting and even praising this sell out. I think Dean is right. The Senate bill is likely to be worse than no bill.

First there was Obama's poor handling of the financial crisis. How much money went to corporate fat cats in Obama's financial bailout? Now there is this fiasco.

I was so disappointed I took the Obama stickers off my car because, frankly, I'm ashamed I left myself be hoodwinked by this slick politician. Let that be a lesson to me.

[Skip Intro]

102. What?! He didn't "swiftboat" himself, the media swiftboated him.

Much like they did with Gore's "sighing" at bush's ramblings during a 2000 campaign debate.

That is the kind of "spectacular" failure you're talking about right? Dean's "scream?"

What a stunningly stupid thing to hold against a candidate for president. But when it gets played over and over again, it takes on a mysterious legitimacy. The media took the moment of "the scream" and did their best to dismiss Dean as a serious candidate. I think any fair recall of those days will show that happened. The media took Dean out of that race. But why? On who's orders?

Do you consider what is currently happening legislatively and politically successful?



And I'm just gonna end here with a hearty fuck Joe Lieberman!

[Cali_Democrat]

103. Dean is the one who yelled, not the media.

A good presidential candidate needs to know that you can't give the mediawhores anything to run with.

[Sebastian Doyle]

105. Do you know what a condenser microphone is?

If you don't look it up. Then realize how the feed from such a device was deliberately isolated and amplified by media whores with the full blessing of the DLC. VilSUCK probably leaked it himself, that wretched son of a MonSatan loving bitch.

The much hyped and overblown scream was not at ALL what the crowd who was actually THERE heard.

[Garam_Masala]

104. Governor Howard Dean would have been a much better president

than any one past or present. But the voters deserve what they get.
Same way people succeed in life only what they deserve.

[Cha]

106. Nobody's perfect..I like Dean and I'm

sure he's doing the best he can to get us a better Health Care Reform bill.

Dean's a team player above all but he does speak his mind..Oh, and I heard that he said on the Ed Show that he would be supporting and campaigning for President Obama in 2012.

Unlike some on here who have nothing but trash mouth and dumb "marching with teabaggers" talk to let off their steam.

[emilyg]

108. unrec

[cry baby]

112. I respectfully disagree - I don't agree with him at all on this issue, but he is...

respected and is a very smart man. I like him a lot, I just disagree with him on this issue.

[Capn Sunshine]

116. short post

so compensation by the word is out.
+1 for the excellent flame bait.
You probably get bonus prizes for that, socko.

[Divine Discontent]

117. epic fail on this particular subject.

[lamp_shade]

118. K&R

[JNelson6563]

119. This is like a ride in the way-back machine.

Is this the 04 primaries? This OP sure has a strong scent of 04 primary.

[dionysus]

120. FAIL. this shit is ridiculous.

[cornermouse]

122. Two thumbs down and unrec

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[itsrobert]

125. Epic Fail

I'm embarrassed to live in the same state as someone who would post this crap.

[xchrom]

126. Unrec

[ClarkUSA]

130. Bernie Sanders said it best re: Dean: "I have to deal with the reality, being a Congress member..."

"A lot of his criticism constructive, he made good points. But I have to deal with the reality, being a Congress member, what it means politically to this country: When will the opportunity come up again for 30 million people, preexisting conditions, etc? It's not a good bill, but we'll try to make it as good as we possibly can."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=69439&mesg_id=69439