Just a thought about the McConnell proposal...

[stuckinarut]

Do we really want to give this, or ANY administration the ability to raise the debt ceiling without congressional approval?

Does Congress even have the right to cede those powers away?

We just gave a blank check to the executive branch..so much for checks and balances.

Who needs 'em anyway?

[Drale]

1. Well technically speaking

the debt ceiling is unconstitutional under the 14th amendment.

[stuckinarut]

4. Ok, well there won't be anymore debate on that

If congress gives the Executive the ability to raise it.

The thing about democracy is that it is not authoritarian.

Unlike this proposal which only tips the scales further away from the people.

Sorry, this is a crap way to approach our financial problems.

[Drale]

5. The thing is it doesn't matter if they give him to power or not

The constitution makes it clear that the US must pay its debt no matter how high it is, there for the debt ceiling doesn't matter.

[former9thward]

21. You are confusing the debt ceiling with the debt.

The debt ceiling has nothing to do with the Constitution. It is a limit on what the U.S. can borrow and is constitutional.

[Doctor Hurt]

32. debatable

because, well, smart people, some of whom disagree with you, are debating it.

[former9thward]

33. A lot of things are debatable.

But I'll go with people like Lawrence Tribe and President Obama for that matter.

[pnwmom]

2. It wouldn't matter for 2 reasons.

#1, and why this is all so stupid -- although catastrophic in the case of default -- is that all the debt ceiling does is allow Obama to fund the debt that Congress has ALREADY approved. Such as the payment of Social Security checks, Treasury bills, etc.

#2, McConnell's proposal expires at the end of this administration.

[stuckinarut]

7. Just like the tax cuts, right?

This is like bizarro land where Democrats all of a sudden support top down solutions for everything. The answer is to have congress pass a bill. That's how our system works.

Not to cede the power to set debt limits to the executive branch. This IS a right wing solution to the problem...thats why its not really a victory at all

[pnwmom]

20. I don't think you understood what I was saying.

Congress already passed a bill -- lots of bills, actually -- involving funding. The purpose of this is to allow Obama to pay for the bills that Congress has ALREADY approved, in the full knowledge of what they cost. Congress has ALREADY approved the funding of Social Security, Medicaid, and the payment of interest to bond holders, etc. but the current debt ceiling isn't high enough to cover those costs. So it needs to be raised to reflect this already approved debt.

[stuckinarut]

22. Which is a function of the congress

Not the business of a President to do when he wants.

[pnwmom]

25. It is well within the right of the Congress to pass this temporarily

to the President, if they wish.

[gateley]

3. McConnell's proposal HAS to be a trap -- there is NO WAY

they caved! And if they were to cave, it wouldn't have been this way -- maybe some concessions here and there, but not this. I just don't trust this. Do you?

[Drale]

6. His big bosses aka wall street

are putting major pressure on him and Boner not to allow a default because it would kill them.

[gateley]

13. Understood and agree -- but I don't think this particular

"offer" means anything but trouble for Obama. We haven't really 'gotten' anything, IMO. But I honestly don't understand it all that well, so the key, I think, will be hearing what the experts say (Krugman, for example) and see how Obama responds.

[stuckinarut]

8. This is not a victory,

Because we are giving the executive MORE power. It is upsetting the balance of government. There is a reason congress has their fingers on things such as purse strings.

They DO NOT have the right to give such authority to the President...ANY President.

They are just trying to by-pass the constitution/law, just like they do in every other situation.

Im starting to think this is a sick joke.

[Drale]

9. Your not understanding

According to the Constitution there should be no debt ceiling there for the power is nothing but symbolic.

[stuckinarut]

10. So if this doesn't matter...

Then why is Mr. Obama putting the crown jewel of the Democratic platform on the chopping block?

Is that what we stand for now?

Signaling cuts to a program that support the least among us?

What a great guy.

VICTORY!

[Drale]

12. No programs where ever in danger

He knew the Repukes would never ever except something Obama thought of, remember they have said on several occasions including at least twice this week, that their one goal is to make Obama a one term president. Even if they had gone out of character and force his hand he knew that there would never be enough votes in the Senate. He's not a stupid man.

[stuckinarut]

15. So he couldn't have threatened to pick something less

valuable? Maybe a few defense contracts? Maybe threaten prosecution of the numerous criminals walking the halls of congress.

I reject the idea that letting ANYBODY touch a self-funded, self-sustaining programs is a good bargaining technique.

These are people's lives and livelihoods... not pawns on a chess piece.

The fucking chess analogy sickens me. My Grandparents are not chess pieces. They are people.

What we are seeing is a country run by the worst among us.

[pnwmom]

24. It seems to me that you are arguing from both sides of your mouth here. nt

[gateley]

17. But he didn't give them what they wanted, otherwise they

wouldn't have been pressured to make this offer. Wall Street obviously believed Obama when he said he wasn't giving up any more.

So at this point, nothing has been lost, but nothing gained, either, I guess. :shrug:

Dying to see how this will all go down.

[gateley]

14. Honestly? I'm less concerned about that with this Administration

but I understand your very valid criticism. But I don't think Obama will go for it - it's a set-up, even though the Republicans HAD to do it to please their bosses.

[bornskeptic]

31. You're falling for the sleight of hand.

What McConnell's proposal is is a $2.5 trillion increase in the debt limit. The rest of it is just an attempt to orchestrate some political theatrics which McConnell hopes would favor the Republicans. There's no meaningful difference between raising the debt ceiling a certain amount or letting the president raise it that amount? None.

[pnwmom]

23. Perhaps they think that having the 3 votes about the debt ceiling

between now and the end of his term will make voters hate him and vote for them.

[creeksneakers2]

11. Its a bad deal

The GOP is desperate for a way out because they've been bluffing since the beginning. They've never had the votes to pass what they are advocating.

According to Fox and others ( I know Fox is unreliable but I think they have inside access here) there are 80 to 120 members of the house GOP who won't vote for a debt ceiling increase under any circumstances. I figure out of those who are left there must be some who will run away from voting for entitlement cuts.

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/07/11/debt-ceiling-sabermetrics

The GOP was in a jam with their own people to begin with and their only way out was to get Obama to sign on to a plan to provide cover for their members voting against entitlements. Their strategy all along was to get Obama to cave by bluffing.

What to do about this? Obama has to call the bluff and expose the GOP. He needs to insist that the house Republicans pass their own plan to move the legislative process along.

If Boehner can't pass his own plan, he'd have to explain why he's going to put the whole country into a disaster for a plan even his own party doesn't support. He'd have to explain why he's been bluffing all this time and causing all this trouble.

Even if the GOP can pass its plan, there would still be the Senate and Obama's veto to intervene. And the GOP members would be stuck going into the next election with their base furious because they passed a debt increase at all, and the rest of the public furious because they voted to cut entitlements.

No matter what they do, its a lose/lose for the GOP if Obama forces them to vote. Obama could leave one way out for them, to supply half the votes needed to pass a clean bill to raise the debt ceiling.

Holding talks, or entertaining the latest GOP dodge attempt just encourages the GOP to think they can still get away with this.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

16. Can you please think about this? There's no way in hell that the president is going to take this

bait!! He knows damn well that it's against the U.S. Constitution. Of course, McConnell is trying to set the president up, but he's no idiot.

I wish people here on DU and elsewhere would give him the benefit of the doubt. He's no idiot!

[stuckinarut]

18. I was writing this in response to all the victory parades around the site

This isn't a win.

Our President put the crown jewel on the butcher block.

Unacceptable to most (d)emocrats I know.

We are not pawns..we are people.

[gateley]

19. I've been saying all along, it's a set-up and Obama won't fall for it. nt

[creeksneakers2]

26. All this talk about the 14th relies on a mistaken interpretation

I keep posting my idea because I'm hoping it will catch on. Do you have any links about Obama's response to McConnell?

"The White House so far is sounding strictly non-committal on McConnell’s proposal, which would give Republicans in Congress political cover on raising the debt ceiling by passing the responsibility — and potential fallout — back to the White House."


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58844.html

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

27. Nothing yet, but I know that most constitutional scholars have already cast doubt

on Section 4.

The White House hasn't made a statement on it yet, but I wish they WOULD!

I would give anything to see the president step out and invoke Article I, Section VII in response to Mitch McConnell. First of all, it's not McConnell's call; it's Boehner's because the Constitution gives this authority strictly to the House.

McConnell is covering for Boehner, that's all.

[creeksneakers2]

28. If you're talking about using the 14th to end run Congress

Both the White House and the Treasury Department have already completely ruled it out. I agree with you that an increase in the debt limit must come from the house, since its a revenue bill.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

30. Yep. I was referring to Section 4 of the 14th Amendment. I'm thinking that they've

already ruled it out. McConnell is trying to trap the president. President O is not stupid.

[The Wizard]

29. The people who run the government

the Wall Street power brokers read the riot act to McConnell and threatened to cut off support to all things Republican if they crashed the economy in a political temper tantrum.