I want President Obama to succeed. I don't hate him. I don't think he's

[cali]

merely a corporate tool.

I wish I could support him on health care reform, but I can't. I fear this legislation will prove unworkable at best and disastrous at worst.

I do think Obama has done some good things both domestically and internationally, but I fear his inexperience is a major deficit.

So far I do not see him as a strong leader. Wish I did.

[NJmaverick]

1. Have you read the health care bill you say will cause possible disaster?

[joshcryer]

4. You've been around long enough to know the answer to that.

I'd eat a broom (German saying) if she hadn't.

[NJmaverick]

12. Bristles or stick first?

[joshcryer]

57. :P

Bristles!

[cali]

7. I've read parts of it and I've read a lot of commentary both pro and con

no, I haven't read every page and I doubt you have either.

[NJmaverick]

11. I have read some pretty detailed summaries from government sources

How much you want to bet 90%+ of those commentators haven't read the bill either?

[natrat]

43. dont take much to see mandate with no cost control is a corporate wet dream,hu smart guy?

[freddie mertz]

15. There is no final bill. But we know its general parameters.

And with a few exceptions, it kinda sucks.

[GreenArrow]

59. "it kinda sucks"

No, it flat out sucks.

[racaulk]

2. I completely agree.

Concern about this bill does not equal hatred for the President or hope for his failure.

Although the uncrecs are already coming in, thank you for saying this. It needed to be said.

K&R

[phleshdef]

3. Experience has shit to do with it. We don't have a progressive senate.

Thats all there is to it.

[tekisui]

10. A strong Democratic leader could have gotten what they wanted

from a Senate with their party majority. It doesn't take a Senate full of Progressives to pass Democratic legislation.

Obama and Reid are weak, and ineffective leaders. You can hand out excuses for the next three years, but by outcomes their abilities are known. Obama and the Dems failed on this. HCR could have been a walk in the park, done by August and helping Americans. But, they all dicked around and caved to conservatives instead of leading. The American people were ready for it and we had their back. They folded.

[phleshdef]

13. No, thats more vague "leadership" horse shit that doesn't mean a damn thing in practice.

You don't even know what you mean by "strong democratic leader", other than "guy who makes people do everything he wants".

[tekisui]

18. Outcomes.

No results, failure of leadership. It isn't anyone's fault except those at the top. They had the support of the people, the popularity, the political capital, they fucked it up.

[phleshdef]

33. You show a complete misunderstanding for how the process of legislation works.

You are talking a bunch of bullshit platitudes that have no REAL WORLD application.

[Armstead]

35. The majority of Democrats wanted a better bill. A small minority skunked it.

That's either a failure of leadership or a deliberate sharing of goals with the skunk minority.

[Fire1]

45. Exactly. n/t

[lamp_shade]

5. Gee... why am I not surprised.

[calico1]

6. I think his main problem is he wants for everybody

to like him and wants to get things done without being too forceful and being Mr. Nice Guy all the time.

As honorable a goal as it is that is just not realistic. As Anthony Wiener stated when you are President you sometimes have to get your hands dirty.

I don't think Obama is incapable of doing a good job. Not at all. I just think he wants to get things done but with everyone on his side and everyone playing nice.

When has that ever happened? He needs to drop that thought, not be afraid of standing up for what he believes in and not being afraid of some people not liking him.

No President ever achieved greatness by being nice.

I want him to be remembered as a fantastic President, not as one term wimp.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. I want him to be remembered as a fantastic President, not as one term wimp.

me too.

[PurityOfEssence]

60. Actors are notorious for needing to be loved by everybody, yet the one actor president...

...didn't give a damn about being disliked, while the last two Republicans literally CRAVE love from everyone...

[asdjrocky]

8. I really wish I had your out look on this Cali.

The most important test, HCR, is a total fail. The argument was never framed in any way that could get a good bill passed. The total failure of this bill and it's full and total capitulation to the right just makes me sick. I can look at it as he just messed up, or this was planned all along. Neither perspective gives me a great deal of confidence.

There are several other issues, abortion, climate change, civil rights, war and peace, where he gets very low marks from me.

Do I hate him? Not at all.

But at this point, and I'm absolutely willing to be turned around on this, I see him as ineffective or a corporate tool. I hope I feel differently, and I hope it happens soon.

[HereSince1628]

9. I don't care if Obama succeeds. I don't even know how that would be defined

On edit: The reason I don't know what Obama success would look like is because he so very rarely defines it. That leaves it to be whatever Gibbs and Axelrod claim it to be.


I would like to see the success of some progressive initiatives and progressive reforms.

Funny thing is the legislation I would use to measure progressive success sounded a lot like the 2008 democratic platform. The giant among the things I was looking to use as a hallmark of success was HCR with a strong public option.

As it goes down, a thousand little charter school, breakfast cereal labelling, and international aid bills to the mideast interest me not.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. i do want Obama to succeed but this bill is shitty.

[NJmaverick]

17. Have you read the bill?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. Have you?

[NJmaverick]

24. I have read detailed summaries from goernment websites, but not the entire 2000+ pages

That's why I would never make a blanket statement like "the bill is shitty". I focus on aspects of the bill, and explain why I feel the way I do.

Now I have answered your question and explained my answer. I did so even though you didn't answer my question (which was asked first). So will you now answer my question?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. I too have read detail summaries from various websites. The bill has an overall effect

and in my opinion the overall effect is shitty.

The reason I asked you first, is as much as right as you have to praise a 2000 page bill without reading its entire content, i have to criticize it. The standards for praise and critisism are not seperate.

[NJmaverick]

30. If you haven't read it, I think you should say more than just that it's "shity"

I think you should explain why you think the positives are out weighed by the negatives.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. I am not obligated to explain myself to you. There has been enough public discourse

about this bill for most people to know why i many deem it shitty.

[niceypoo]

40. We have yet to see your explaination of same

Put up or shut up.

[niceypoo]

22. Lieberman, keep saying the name over and over

Wow, the bar sure has gotten low

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dave29]

19. This is pretty much the same OP I've seen from you almost every day for a week

only a little less harsh. A few sentences, same subject matter, nothing new to offer.

I think we get where you are coming from.

At least you are consistent, so there is that.

I know I am a jerk most of the time... but why so repetitive. Honest question

[cali]

23. codswallop. I have hardly written the same op every day

I am tired of being characterized as a hater of the President's.

[dave29]

34. roger that.

I was just curious. I think you may be running in to difficulty because the knee-jerk (and I use the term jerk once again to define myself) reaction of the folks who feel Obama is under siege -- is to not take anything at face value, especially when it is precluded by how much one actually likes the President. Many assume a motive when there are shades of grey. I like x but not xy does not register on the DU, especially in contentious times.

Anyway, I said what I said because it has been clear to me for some time your feelings on this. Maybe not to others. You have frequently said how much you like the President but not this bill. Seems like the same stuff to me.

-Dave

[niceypoo]

20. One word comes to mind

...betrayal

Ive held my tongue for a year, but this is the one issue where it was do or die for me. To hand it to Lieberman, of all people, is just beyond the pale.

I'm completely disillusioned with him.

[NJmaverick]

27. My mind is usually filled with complex thoughts that take many words

To me your one word just is lacking. Where are the facts? Where are the reasons? Where are the explanations?

[niceypoo]

29. If you dont understand it after being dragged through the mud for the last six months

...you never will

[NJmaverick]

31. I understand that anyone that thinks they have been "dragged through the mud for the

last six months" has a serious perception problem.

[niceypoo]

39. The fact that you now feel a need to make it personal

...tells all.

[uponit7771]

28. Obama's base disagrees with you on the corporate tool part and understand the senats roll in this...

[NJmaverick]

32. When did you get elected spokesperson for Obama's base???

I am part of his base and I sure as hell don't want you speaking on my behalf!

[Puglover]

36. With respect.

You aren't doing President Obama or this HC bill any favors jumping into every OP on this forum and insulting people. Frankly you are reducing yourself to looking silly. Take a walk seriously.

[ClarkUSA]

47. lol! Follow your own advice.

Hypocrisy in action here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=15872&mesg_id=22227

[Puglover]

49. Oh dear. Is this where I'm supposed to hang my head in shame?

Perhaps reading comprehension isn't your forte? I freely admit to getting frustrated at times with the sycophantic and frankly unhealthy adoration of President Obama by a VERY few on this site. Just as much as I get frustrated with the Obama haters that do nothing but rip on him. Nowhere did I say I haven't been guilty of occasional snark. But it's occasional as most of the time I don't engage with web warriors because it really serves no purpose except to raise my blood pressure.

I'll repeat, spamming each and every thread insulting posters and starting flame wars doesn't do Obama, the current debate or any one else any favors. And I believe that you and several other posters are doing just that.

I support Obama. The DLC not so much. But as a Democrat I reserve the right to comment when I believe he is headed down the wrong path. And speaking for myself I don't appreciate it when you and your pals swoop in with your hyperbole.

And if you have heartburn with all of this. Too bad.

[NJmaverick]

51. I think he may have a very good point about practicing what you preach

I think most people wouldn't consider challenging someone, who claims to know what an entire group thinks, insulting. After all, no one on DU is happy when the Tea party people talk about "the American people want/think....".

I am pretty sure though comments like "you look silly", "reading comprehension isn't your forte", "Obamacandyland", "over the top Obama worship", "sycophantic" and "unhealthy adoration" are insults (and also hyperbole).

Like you say you want, I want peaceful and respectful exchanges. I don't think we get peaceful exchanges when you use inflammitory langauge and phrases like the ones I listed. It makes you sound like you are guilty of the acts you are accusing others of (only for a different side).

[Puglover]

53. Point taken

However with the exception of "Obamacandyland" which was me trying to be cute (and failing) I stand by everything else I said. I call them like I see them.

Thankfully the Obama haters and their polar opposites are few on this website. Sadly they are very prolific posters.

[NJmaverick]

54. I wish I could call them like I see them

but I am not sure DU's rules of civility makes an exception for sincere insults.

[ClarkUSA]

52. No, it's where we see how your anti-Obama supporter comments makes you a poor preacher of "respect".

Funny how I never see you preaching about "respect" to Obama bashers/haters who attack Obama supporters 24/7...

Gee, I wonder why? :eyes:

There was nothing wrong with what NJ Maverick said. Your continued sneering about "sycophantic" Obama "adoration"
makes clear your anti-Obama supporter bias.

[ClarkUSA]

46. Right on. Obama's base are the 90%+ of self-identified Democrats who approve of him.

:thumbsup:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Obama's base thinks he's a corporate tool?

That's damn near a logical contradiction.

People who think he's a corporate tool are most certainly not Obama's base.

Maybe Ralph Nader's. Or Lyndon LaRouche's.

[cali]

55. baloney. Obama still has very high approval ratings among dems

I know the netroots like to think we're all important: We're not.

[VMI Dem]

37. The bill is crap.

Kill it.

[Cleita]

41. As long as he is listening to Rahm Emmanuel, he won't push for a better

health bill because his health advisor, Rahm's brother oncologist Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel, thinks universal health care can be achieved by issuing vouchers to the uninsured. He wants to replace Medicare and Medicaid with vouchers also. They would be funded with a regressive sales tax. :eyes: I would really like to see him debate Dr. Howard Dean on this, but then maybe they already have, which could explain the white hot hatred Rahm has for Howard.

[JohnnyLib2]

42. I think we'll hear about "his inexperience" many more times.

All those up for reelection will have to explain the stand they've taken on this--and other matters--soon. Finger-pointing will abound. :banghead:

[niceypoo]

48. It has nothing to do with a lack of experience, IMHO

I believe that he is simply out of touch

[pecwae]

50. I doubt anyone here could seriously

accuse you of hating him or wanting him to fail. It seems you have your specific concerns and you've voiced them. Nothing wrong with that.

[David Zephyr]

56. His first year was the hallmark of a rookie.

Sad.

[vaberella]

58. No. You don't want him to succeed when you make several posts wishing the HCR bill fails! n/t