Can we set this straight.. the debt ceiling is about a bill we owe..money we have borrowed already

[Peacetrain]

not some future borrowing.

Republicans who are refusing to raise the debt ceiling, are refusing to pay the debt. They are stiffing the creditor..They are a bad credit risk.

Hit back on this..

Republicans are deadbeats.

[Make7]

1. If we already borrowed it, why does the debt ceiling need to be raised? ( n/t )

[Peacetrain]

4. to pay the interest on the money we borrowed..

[DrToast]

10. So it is about money we need to borrow.*

*

[dkf]

2. No.

We need to borrow more to pay off what we owe.

We haven't borrowed it yet. But we spent it.

[former9thward]

3. You are wrong on this.

It is for future projected borrowing.

[Peacetrain]

5. Deficiets are future borrowing.. debt is what we have already borrowed..

two different animals.

That is why during the Clinton years when we ran a budget that was a positive take in.. the debt still grew.. check it out

RAISE THE DEBT CEILINGS

[former9thward]

6. Borrowing is just one source of government revenue.

Government gets money from all sorts of revenue streams including taxation. So by your logic if the debt ceiling is unconstitutional then tax rates should be unconstitutional also. The government could just take what it needs from people's income without regard to what the tax rate is. Laurence Tribe has destroyed the 14th Amendment argument. http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/07/tribe-smacks-geithner-twice-over-debt-limit-posturing

[Peacetrain]

7. First ace.. try rereading the op..

Raise the debt ceiling.

It has been done over 100 times since its inception in 1917

Raise the ceiling

[former9thward]

11. No one is arguing about whether to raise the ceiling or not.

But skippy your novel economic theory about borrowing is just plain wrong.

[Peacetrain]

12. There is no "theory" there and this op is not an exercise in "moot court"

We borrowed money.. We now have debt.

You have pay the interest rate on that "debt", plus what ever you need to run things in the year your budget is active in. If you don't up goes the interest rates your creditors are charging you. When you try to borrow more money when you do not have enough and run a "deficit" you are going to pay higher interest rates which means you will have to borrow more money to service the interest on the "debt" you already have and increase that "debt" at a quicker rate.. which ends up meaning cut services.

[former9thward]

13. Projected spending is not borrowing.

It would be like as if you plan to buy a car 3 months from now but you are counting that in the current debt you owe. That is a novel economic theory. No we haven't borrowed the money yet. That is why there is a debt ceiling.

[Peacetrain]

15. What are you talking about? Debt is already borrowed money.

But increased interest rates WILL most assuredly affect future borrowing and what you pay or do not pay and what services will get cut or not.

The debt ceiling is an arbitrary thing that most countries do not even deal with.

Raise the damn debt ceiling.

[WingDinger]

8. Indeed, this is how Trump is idolized. For his bankruptsies. Stiffing the creditors, for fun and pro

profit.

[Peacetrain]

9. Trump is example one for republicans stiffing the public and his creditors

Republicans are talk the talk, but do not walk the walk.. they always go on the credit card when they are in office and run that debt up.. and then find religion when the Democrats are in office and trying to clean up the mess they left.

Unfortunately their economic conversion is stiffing the people they borrowed from

And the biggest group they borrow from is Americans through the social secruity funds. We are the ones that own the debt.. not the Chinese.. they have what.. maybe 10%

Republicans are historically financially irresponsible.

They have a deadbeat philosophy

[WingDinger]

21. It can pretty well be summed up by, WINNING!

[robcon]

14. Nonsense. A debt ceiling only restrict future borrowing.

n/t

[Peacetrain]

16. Did you bother to read the op.. or like someone else in here.. read the first sentence

and go off the deep end

[Yavin4]

17. If You Refuse To Consider Raising Taxes

Then you are a complete liar when it comes to balancing the budget and pay off the debt. Republicans are complete liars.

[Peacetrain]

19. Bingo.. the republicans are going to be responsible for any delayed monies

going to SS.. the militarily.. the closing of national parks.. the raising of interest rates on our national debt..that will then effect states and small communities and how they raise money.

It is COMPLETELY in their lap

[golfguru]

18. We should borrow a lot more

then declare bankruptcy and stiff all the creditors.
My bro-in-law does it every 7 years and lives very well.
Why can't we do the same doggone thing?

[Peacetrain]

20. We are not an individual so can clean up his act in 7 years.. If we

go into default.. it will effect the world and not only us. We are the big guy... and when we sneeze the world catches a cold.

[Igel]

22. No.

We have current tax revenues. Those can be used to pay the interest on the debt; any debt that needs to be redeemed would lower the amount of outstanding debt. We'd be below the debt ceiling for that amount of money, and could immediately reissue the T-bills as debt.

As long as we have enough current receipts to pay the interest, as long as we don't mind having other government spending slashed and cut there'd be no reason to raise the debt.

We *do* borrow money for the current budget; the current budget includes interest payments. But there's nothing in the budget saying, specifically, "Money for servicing the national public debt must be paid out of borrowed funds." There's no good map to get from revenue source to expense within the budget.

The debt ceiling needs to be raised because expenses exceed revenues and so we have limited choices: We can increase revenues somehow, borrow money, or cut spending.

The "debt" that some argue we would be in default of if we paid the interest to investors but cut spending are often squishy debts, "obligations". Tribe's made the argument that debts are not obligations for the 14th Amendment since, well, the amendment uses both and implies there's a difference between them. Obligations are things like SS, Medicare Part B/D, education funding, highway improvements. Things like contracts with soldiers and vendors of one sort or another could fall, I suppose, into either, depending on how the contracts are worded.

[Peacetrain]

23. Debt vs Deficit.. ..I have been through it a gazillion times in this thread

We borrow on a daily basis depending on the amount of revenue coming in that day and the amount that needs to go out.

The Bachmann theory that we can just pay the interest is ludicrous.. Because we need money every single day or something is going to get cut, and everything will keep humming along.

The republican idea of no revenues and you can just cut your way to fiscal health is a fantasy.

The whole idea of a debt ceiling is fantasy.

The idea of a balanced budget amendment on a country the size of the US is a fantasy.

Governments are not a businesses.. They do not make things that make a profit. A government delivers services and protects its citizenry.

That is why business people are the worlds worst economic leaders when it comes to running a sovereign country's outlays.

Republicans have a fantasy of a "business guy or gal" who will whip this country into shape..

The last thing we need is a broken down hack who ran a pizza company or someone who ran a baseball franchise into the ground (oh wait, been there and done that)

What a government needs and demands is an effective community organizer, who understands how to prioritize and meet an agency budget to keep it afloat.