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"Like Obama, Pres. Lincoln was seen by many of his supporters as ... a disappointmnet in office."

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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:16 PM
Original message
"Like Obama, Pres. Lincoln was seen by many of his supporters as ... a disappointmnet in office."
Like President Obama, President Lincoln was seen by many of his supporters as something of a disappointment once in office. This was largely due to the number and types of compromises he needed to make, most notably with the institution of slavery. In his first inaugural address, Lincoln came out and said that he was not bound and determined to end slavery, that the President does not in any case have the power to unilaterally change the law of the land, and that his first priority was the preservation of the Union, even if the price of that preservation was to accept the continuation of slavery. During the war, when pressed by a group of ministers about why he had not more forcefully worked to end slavery, he reiterated that his overriding priority was to preserve the Union, and added that there were four slave states which had stayed loyal and which were currently contributing 50,000 soldiers to the war effort; these, he pointed out, were states and soldiers which he could not afford to lose in a dispute over slavery.
When Lincoln finally issed the Emancipation Proclamation, its scope was remarkably circumscribed: it did not call for the emancipation of slaves in loyal states (for this, Lincoln would need the participation of Congress, and in any event, as described above, he did not seek such an act for fear of worsening the Union's position in the war); it did not call for the emancipation of slaves in those areas under military control by the Union; it limited emancipation to those areas which would be brought under military control subsequent to January 1, 1863, which was about 3 months after the Proclamation itself was issued. As one historian noted, this meant the Proclamation carefully excused all of the slaves which the United States actually had any authority over at the time of issuance! As another historian noted, the Proclamation was in essence the offer of a bribe: any state then in rebellion which would lay down its arms and return to the Union would not be compelled to give up its slaves; any state conquered by force of arms after January 1, 1863 would be so compelled.

Needless to say, the Proclamation was seen by anti-slavery partisans of the time as wholly unacceptable, a compromise too far, and yet more evidence of the unfitness of their elected standard-bearer in the White House. And yet, as Foote points out, Lincoln is today hailed as the preserver of the Union, which he was, but as The Great Emancipator, which he was not. This is because the Proclamation, while useless in a practical sense at the moment of issuance, was the crucial starting point for the abolition of slavery, a project which was completed just a few years later.

I trust that the parallels with our own current situation are apparent (though I think that the Senate HCR bill is far more immediately useful now then the Emancipation Proclamation was then). I would also note that after winning election both Lincoln and Davis were widely condemned by their supporters as weak, stupid, cowardly, vain, and tyrannical by their supporters, who wondered aloud why they had ever voted for those people and what was to become of a nation led by such a man. Apparently intense dissatisfaction with elected officials you have heretofore supported is an American tradition.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/12/pt_appeals_to_history.php#more?ref=fpblg


(I'm gonna behave and not include one of those morphed images of Lincoln and Obama.)
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Obama is no Lincoln /nt
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Say it enough times, they'll believe it?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Obama's light years closer to Lincoln
than your fuckwit Bush or any other puke.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yeah, I can see for myself
who Pres Obama is..I don't need cheap shots on the internet to analyse what's going on.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. I just read that myself and was going to post it...
I appreciate the historical analogy-- thought provoking...
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's ironic that the same geographical segment of the US was against Lincoln.
The Racist bastards in the South hate Obama just as much as they hated Lincoln.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. This one doesn't.......
.... well, technically, I'm not a bastard .. at least not in the literal sense. :)
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I always qualify it as the "racist south", because I know there are good folks who live there.
Not many, but there are some.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. Well, now I'm not saying I'm GOOD either.....
:evilgrin:
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Time will tell. But apples and oranges also come to mind. nt
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Lincoln was disdained for trying to change the country
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 01:26 PM by DJ13
Obama's problems stem from not trying to change the country.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. +1 n/t
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
41. Yep. These aren't the same times and fighting insurance companies
is not the same as trying to completely dismantle the economy of a more economically powerful half of the country.

Give me a break. Lincoln my ass. If Obama has done ANYTHING worth praising in this healthcare repackaging spectacle it's that he's largely done fuck all nothing. My only HOPE at this point is that he'll be so withdrawn when it comes time to sign, and simply opt out because it might cost him a little capital with republicans.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Also of note: Lincoln was assassinated. nt
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Ass-fuck post of the year award
idjut.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. What a trashy thing to say
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. So the fuck what? Do you have a point?
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pissedoff01 Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Peace-loving with Nobel Prize just like MLK, warmongering just like Alexander the Great
and one-termer just like Jimmy
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. "and one-termer just like Jimmy"
That's what the Teabab Taliban gang is saying too, and with much glee!
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. To me, Lincoln is the most overrated President
He did do a wonderful job of keeping northern morale up and fighting when there were plenty of chances for public opinion to have said "just let them go."

That was the opinion in general that he went against anyway in much of the north.

The blundering in his early administration was horrendous.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. That's your opinion.
Just like assholes, everybody's got one.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. Yes - when I start a post with "to me"
then I am expressing my opinion.

But thanks for making it even clearier.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Amazing how perfection eludes so many people.
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S_E_Fudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. You could say the exact same thing except replace "Lincoln" with "Pierce"
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 02:50 PM by S_E_Fudd
And then the statement would be accurate...

More often than not Presidents who are disappointments to their supporters are that way for a reason...

Doesn't prove much citing the exception...
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mcablue Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. By that logic, George W. Bush=Lincoln, as many of his supporters were disappointed
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 03:39 PM by mcablue
And I used the word "many" because the definition of "many" in the OP's mind seems to be "a small minority" of supporters. Obama's approval among Democrats is around 90%.

Because of the lack of a definition as to what you perceive as "many," I am unrecommending.
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. obama needs independants to win in 2012..
so that 90% approval among democrats and $2.50 will get you a steaming hot cup of jack krap.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
32. Not any of the right wing sites I would check during his administration. n/t
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. Anyone whining about Pres. Obama after 11 months in post-BushCo mess cleanup never liked him...
... in the first place. Perhaps Lincoln was the target of such post-election acrimony as well. Ergo, he had his Team of Rivals, too.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. One similarity, albeit a bit thin
(I take these kinds of comparisons with a grain of salt) ...is that they both constantly irritated the loudest factions of the left and right. The left (mostly the Radical Republicans and some moderate Republicans) wanted to make the war about abolition, in the face of Lincoln's insistence that the preservation of the union was Job #1. The right (an amalgam of conservative Republicans and moderate-to-conservative Democrats) felt he should leave slavery alone in general, and felt he was flirting dangerously with abolition just for suggesting, let alone drafting, the EP. Those on the right who supported the war (including the 'War Democrats') agreed with his aim of preserving the union ONLY, while other conservatives favored negotiating peace with the CSA, with some wanting a return to the status quo antebellum (union and slavery intact), and others saying the CSA should be allowed their independence. There was no way to please everybody, so Lincoln honed his own path: keep the war going with the aim of negating secession and preserving the union, and incrementally opening the genie bottle of emancipation. In other words, a path moving deftly back-and-forth between moderate left and right-of-center, depending on the turn of events. The EP was more of a strategic tool designed to demoralize the CSA and keep Britain's reluctance to enter the war on the side of the CSA at full strength. It not only DIDN'T free any slaves, it ignored the condition and status of slaves in the union states where slavery was still protected. The 13th amendment was the first legally binding emancipation text.

Of course, to the left, he looked way too far right when he disavowed emancipation as an overt war aim (and for that matter, held fast to the idea of colonization if emancipation should come to pass), and to the right, including the conservatives in his own party, he was a dangerous abolitionist or at best a naive sympathizer. Don't touch slavery, but if you're going to, do not move too fast, don't alienate the border states and cause them to secede (hence the EP leaving them alone), and by the way, the EP is unconstitutional, etc. (Lincoln cited his powers as C-i-C to enact the EP, but the lawyer in him was always adept at rationalizing his ignoring the constitution when it suited his aims).

While I think Lincoln is overrated in some regards (he was Stalinesque when it came to habeas corpus suspensions, middle-of-the-night raids and kidnappings at private homes, jailing newspaper editors, etc., and was just as white supremacist as many of his southern detractors), in no fucking way is he the most overrated president. Reagan wins that prize every time, hands down. It's not even arguable.

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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Like Lincoln, Obama has ten fingers and ten toes!
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. Oh, stop it! No one is interested in facts and historic perspective!
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. This is just plain silly
The Emancipation Proclamation had a primary focus on favorably influencing the European powers so they'd not recognize the Confederacy and give it any legitimacy. Lincoln actively resisted taking any action on slavery where possible, and only did so because he was faced with no other choice. Even then, he crafted the Proclamation as narrowly as humanly possible. One of the very few guaranteed things that would send Lincoln into apoplectic fits of rage were whenever a liberal politician or general touched the slavery issue at all in ways that he felt would provoke the border states or instill in anyone, especially highly racist immigrant populations needed to fill military quotas, the idea that the war was about freeing the slaves.

At least with Lincoln, his lack of abolitionist purity was in service to holding the Union together.

Just who, exactly, is President Obama trying to influence with the nonsense? I'll tell you who: the insurance companies, the bankers, the wealthy, and the powerful.

This comparison is not only ridiculously inapt, it's historically illiterate.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
37. +1
Obama is not well served by some of his defenders...
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. *facepalm*
Obama has more in common with Blanche Lincoln than Abraham Lincoln.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. Lincoln brooked no compromise when it came to preserving the union, and actually realized..
that the crisis of his times called for a more radical solution than he had previously been prepared for. Thus a man who wanted nothing more than to preserve the union stepped up to the plate and abolished slavery.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
31. comparing the 1860's to 2009....dayum!
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
34. After reading Team of Rivals, I have to say there are some parallels
In fact, Lincoln didn't run much of a campaign in 1864. It was mostly done by proxy through supporters. The first few years of his Presidency were very rough and he made some decisions that were questioned, even by those around him. I'm sure if polling were done then, he would have had very low numbers given the course of the war and a very divided country. I highly recommend the book for anyone who hasn't read it.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #34
42. Yes, one of my all time favorite books and your analysis here is spot on
I would even go further and say that few Presidents have had good ratings their first year to 18 months in office.
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Revealer Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
35. Many people don't' know this
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 01:07 AM by Revealer
Lincoln was the first US President who actively championed corporate welfare. His administration provided huge subsidies to private railroad companies (insurance companies of the 19th century). This giveaway was only possible with the enactment of draconian tariffs (another form of corporate welfare) that hurt numerous consumers and benefited very few industrialists.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
38. That's Bush's claim - that he will be seen as a hero in 50 years
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m3e92man8850 Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
39. oh please!
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
40. I don't think it is wise to compare preceptions of Presidents who
were murdered to any President. The act of getting killed generally boost your popularity ratings, as people speculate what could have been, as part of the legacy.
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