14th Amendment. 14th Amendment!!!!

[styersc]

Just do it!!! Time to employ the Constitution with a measure of cojones for God's Sake!!!!!!!!!

[TBMASE]

1. Where does the 14th amendment give the president the power

to borrow on the credit of the united states?

[Llewlladdwr]

2. It doesn't.

This is just more magical thinking.

[Raven]

5. I believe the expenditures relating to the increased debt ceiling have

already been authorized by Congress, in fact by many in Congress who now don't want to pay the bill. Since the debt has already been incurred and authorized by Congress, the President, under the 14th A can act to meet these obligations. The 14th A says that the US SHALL honor its debts. It doesn't say it MAY ifit feels like it.

[Llewlladdwr]

7. Actually, it doesn't say anything about honoring debt.

The 14th says merely that "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned". It then goes on to say "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article". No mention of the Executive and it's amazing ability to usurp Congress' authority.

[creeksneakers2]

35. If something has to be done

why doesn't the responsibility fall to Congress? That's who the Constitution gives the power to borrow money to.

[TBMASE]

44. The president can't accrue more debt to pay these expenditures

He doesn't have the authority to borrow money.
Which means he'll have to pick and choose what to pay with the tax receipts coming in from payroll taxes

[styersc]

6. The 14th Amendment requires to US to pay its bills.

The irresponsible legislative branch has obligated the country for more spending then they have raised the revenues to cover. The President has no choice but to be the adult in the room

Raising the debt ceiling spends not one cent or raises one penny of revenue, just allows for borrowing which to cover bills per the requirement of the 14th Amendment.

Pull the trigger Mr. President. Make them take you to court where they will look like whining children!!!!!

[onenote]

10. if in fact the legislative branch is constitutionally required to raise the debt ceiling

Then wouldn't the constitutional remedy for their failure be for someone to bring a judicial action to force the congress to act rather than for the executive branch to simply claim to have the power?

By the way, in raising this hypothetical question I'm not suggesting that it is in any way certain that the Congreess is obligated by the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling, just suggesting that under the constitution the job of deciding the answer to that question falls on the Judiciary not the Executive branch.

[Llewlladdwr]

12. No, it does not.

It says that the validity of the debt will not be questioned, not that the debt will be paid. Valid debts are frequently not paid. That's what bankruptcy is for.

Could you provide a link to the specific text that you believe authorizes the Executive to usurp the Legislative's control of the Federal purse strings? Thanks!

[Enrique]

14. we didn't always have a debt ceiling

and most other countries don't have a debt ceiling.

[creeksneakers2]

36. We've always had a debt ceiling

The Constitution only empowers Congress to borrow money. If Congress authorizes borrowing $20, then $20 is the ceiling. Nothing beyond that is authorized.

Look at it from a different angle. Did the founders intend to give the president unlimited authority to borrow all the money he wants on his own?

[Hosnon]

41. The Founders didn't draft the 14th Amendment. nt.

[TBMASE]

45. And the 14th amendment doesn't give the president power to borrow money

[creeksneakers2]

48. Enrique says we didn't always have a debt ceiling

We've always had one, 14th Amendment or not.

[Enrique]

49. we didnt always have a statutory debt ceiling

which is what this is about. There was no statutory debt ceiling at the founding.

[styersc]

25. Text in question.

Amendment 14, Section 4
4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

---------------

The application of the debt ceiling is itself contrary to this Amendment in that it starves the Executive branch of the funds that have already been spent in law by the Legislature. Obama is only asking for the money to pay the bills that have already been written into law, and does not raise revenues or spend extra money. The debt is already "authorized by law".

[Llewlladdwr]

27. I'm not seeing anything there about the Executive branch...

nor any special power it has to borrow against the full faith and credit of the United States if it feels the Legislative branch isn't doing its job. Sorry, it just isn't there. I don't even see anything there guaranteeing that the United States won't default on its debt, only that the validity of the debt, when authorized by law, shall not be questioned.

You are correct that the President has to ask Congress for money. Congress, however, does not have to give it to him.

[styersc]

29. Congress has written law that calls for expenditures.

They are now obligated to come up with the money, by raising revenues or borrowing. They have saddled the Executive Branch with the obligation to Execute Laws that call for these funds, they must now provide access to the funds.

[Llewlladdwr]

30. Where are you reading that?

There's nothing in the 14th saying Congress has to provide funding to the President to cover our debt or else he gets to to do it himself. There's not even anything there saying the United States won't default on its debt. All it says is that the validity of the debt, when authorized by law, shall not be questioned.

[dmallind]

3. Existing debt. Existing debt!! Not more debt!!! nt

[Llewlladdwr]

15. I don't understand what you mean.

Could you explain this a bit?

[dmallind]

26. 14A says debt (as in debt that exists) shall not be questioned - not "borrow infinitely"

The point is to make sure that no future government (at the time the fear was a Confederate one) can repudiate existing debt and refuse to pay it. So in this "default" (the word used confuses many) we absolutely will pay debt interest and at maturity, but we cannot borrow more money to pay other bills like wages and purchase orders.

[Llewlladdwr]

28. Got it. Thank you very much. NT

[flamingdem]

4. Clyburn just recommended using it on MSNBC right now nt

[creeksneakers2]

38. Clyburn is very irresponsible

I know some people with expertise believe the hoax, but I don't see how. I don't see how anybody who knows anything about the law could read the amendment as an authorization for the president to borrow money without the consent of Congress.

[Ter]

8. I only take the Constitution literally, it's not living

If it's not specifically in there, there is no room for interpreting it to a specific liking.

[Fearless]

32. Guess only men are created equal then huh?

[gateley]

9. Obama said no! Obama said no!

He's the one who will or will not invoke it. Our supporting it (or not) doesn't matter. :shrug:

[styersc]

13. You put an exclamation point at the end of your comment.

This flacid president has never EXCLAIMED anything.

I was sort of hopeful with the 14th Amendment suggestion that backbone might be applied.

[Enrique]

16. not definitively

he left wiggle room, and prominent Democrats are talking about using it.

[Cali_Democrat]

11. Obama doesn't have it in him to invoke the 14th amendment

He's too afraid of the criticism that he'll get from the Republicans. Obama is going to continue to seek "compromise" and reach across the aisle only to be rejected.

[Lorien]

17. Plus, he really wants those cuts to social programs. nt

[styersc]

18. The Constitution set up a system where power shared by the

Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judiciary acts to keep each branch in check and promotes strenght and deliberation in decision making.

I'm not sure that the founders expected an Executive Branch that caves at the drop of a hat.

Why seek the presidency if you are not interested in being the president?

[onenote]

23. Really. Or maybe he realizes that because of the uncertainty surrounding that approach

Bond ratings will still be downgraded and a lot of the bad shit that would come with default would still happen.

[vaberella]

47. Read post # 39. You need to step back from your Obama hate & get the facts. n/t

[krawhitham]

19. If he uses the 14th Amendment he loses in 2012

and that is about the only way he can lose

Maybe that was the GOP plan all along

[flamingdem]

24. Why would he lose? nt

[Fearless]

33. Nonsense! It would be the will of the people not to touch social programs.

[damntexdem]

20. Nope, not time to do it unitl the bills need to be paid, some time on or after Aug. 2.

Then do it.

[alpha9161]

21. dont give the tea party more ammo nt

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Proles]

31. Hear hear! nt

[gopbasher12]

34. Agreed but he won't do it.Obama is cautious.

I think it is the thing to do.

[Morizovich]

37. He won't use it

We both know that.

[creeksneakers2]

39. There is nothing in the 14th Amendment that gives the

president the power to borrow money without the consent of Congress. There's nothing in the 14th Amendment about not having enough money to pay off debts. All there is is a requirement that the VALIDITY of the public debt shall not be questioned. That means Congress can't cancel debts by declaring they don't owe the money anymore. Nobody is talking about anything like that.

If the 14th Amendment did require that the government take action to pay off debts on time, the responsibility would fall to Congress, not the president.

Its frightening that so many powerful people are advocating acting on an absurd interpretation. If Obama tried to incur debt without authorization, the people who would be tasked to carry out the orders would likely refuse, because they could go to jail. Any investor who bought the bonds would be taking an enormous risk. A past case out of DC held that bonds that are not lawfully drafted don't have to be paid. Anybody who bought the bonds would want a staggering interest rate to make the risk worthwhile.

Then Obama would be impeached, the public would be right behind it because it would come out that Obama's actions were illegal. Obama would be convicted, and he'd deserve it.

Responsible leaders on the left shouldn't feed the 14th Amendment hoax.

[dana_b]

42. I was just reading it

and also the recent NYT article on Obama saying that he conferred with his lawyers about it and they basically told him the same thing. I see what you are saying now. I'm sure the House would try and impeach him. Wow - what a bloody mess.

[Vattel]

40. Just what we need

The President claiming another power he doesn't really have.

[recadna]

43. I agree

People had the same lnee-jerk reaction to filibuster. You never know when a repub is going to be in WH. All the unchecked power given to president can bite us at the end in the future.

[styersc]

46. My bad. Asking a president to exert power...

...when his MO is weakness and floundering!!!! What was I thnking?

[Amonester]

50. Not your bad. His name is not georgedoubleyoubu$h so...

he's got no free passes. eom