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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:16 PM
Original message
I want to give Obama the benefit of the doubt
His address earlier this week, was weak.

I HOPE he was just trying to get more public attention on the "crisis" and will use the earlier address as a basis/base to use the 14th amendment.

I have until recently thought the crisis was made up, I mostly still do, but I'm less sure.

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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. I would but I don't want to give him the benefits to bargain.
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jamieque Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Sorry to say you are wrong
but you are just like so many other people I keep seeing on these forums. But then again I am not surprise considering how quickly some so-called Obama's supporters will turn on him and accuse him of not living up to his promise. The truth is that so-called supporters are not living up their promise to support him and stand up for change in this country. The president isn't the problem is the lack of action on the part of the people he tried to inspire to fight for change that is. When very few people are willing to stand up and fight to make for change then this is the result. The Republicans win and everyone but the wealthy lose.

So I suggest you give him the benefit of the doubt because he is the only one willing to help us. The rest of the bastards are trying to destroy us.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. So he isn't putting benefits on the table?
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jamieque Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. The way it looks to me
is that the Republicans are the ones putting benefits on the kill table. But hey if you want to believe the president is at fault go right ahead and believe it. So many other americans seem to easily fall for all the lies they are fed. You know the one thing I find so sad about this country is how quickly the american public tends to forget the sins of the previous administration. Barack Obama is not at fault for the mess that Bush Jr. left behind and yet so many people are stupid enough to think he is. Well maybe the country should be allowed to fail. Maybe only then will the people wake and do their fucking part or not.

The future is in the hands of the people but the people have to wake up and realize that fact...
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I can't give him the benefit of the doubt.
people are hurting, the poor and the elderly are not recovering from Bush's recession. He is too willing to make cuts in the budget that will hurt those people. When he stands up for us I will stand up for him. As for " The Republicans win and everyone but the wealthy lose." Obama shares a lot of the blame for that.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. So it's our fault he didn't insist on a public option
or overturn the PATRIOT Act, or stop extraordinary renditions, or investigate/prosecute torturers, or start comprehensive immigration reform, or really end the wars, or stop defense contracting with Halliburton, or close Gitmo, or rebuild New Orleans, or reinstate gay servicemen and women, or stop the resumption of offshore drilling in the Gulf, or stop gas drillers from fracking, or let the Bush tax cuts expire, and now, allow NO negotiating away Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

Yes, it's ALL our fault, not the president's. How asinine of us to expect the Democratic president to act like a Democratic president. We have NO RIGHT to have expectations of him and instead we should all say, 'mea culpa.' Maybe we should all do like you and keep our mouths shut except to praise him, and taking a page right out of Nazi Germany. Begging and pleading will only make him oppose what we want, as you say.

How could we not know that a vote for Obama was in fact a sacred loyalty oath? What idiots we are, believing the president is obligated to fight for us instead of the other way around.
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Raine1967 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. He's been saying it was a crisis for weeks.
I never questioned that. This is a crisis. I don;t think he can use the 14th, simply because I am of the belief that the 14th doesn't really give the any branch of government special power to act. It just is. I say this WRT section 4, the one I believe many people are referring to:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
I don't know if POTUS can act without without stepping on other parts of the constitution.

Sadly, from what I understand, and I am willing to be wrong, it comes down to the House holding the purse strings. THEY are responsible for this. POTUS can only make suggestions. He really doesn't have such authority in the 14th to go around congress without stepping on the constitution itself. the 14th doesn't appear to specifically state that POTUS can do this.

Article 1, Section 8 of the constitution states: ( http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei )

Section 8.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.






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Raine1967 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. There is also Article 1; Section 7 which states:
Section 7.

All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.


Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.

Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. The "crisis" is made up....
...in that raising the debt ceiling is not a crisis. It never has been and it's normally done with no fanfare.

The crisis is that the loonies on the right are using this to make a point and score points with the teabaggers, so they are holding the country hostage to make a point. That is the crisis. not the debt.

Obama bears the blame in that as usual rather than calling bullshit what it is early on, he humored them, and engaged them, and embraced their talking points and their approach. So after weeks of acting as though the other side had a legitimate point and a legitimate gripe he can't very well just now go "Oh yeah, it's not really a crisis and we don't need to do anything about this other than just raise the goddamn debt ceiling like every one of these fuckers has voted to do, without condition, many times before."
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
10.  And that's what makes me think he is not going to use the 14th amendment
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Raine1967 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. I want to clarify this:
The Debt crisis is a crisis because the House took this nation hostage. Normally, no this is not a crisis, and to that I understand, but we are facing a catastrophe because of the political posturing by the GOP who created this very real situation -- and it is one that never had to be.

They were going to do this right from the start. Anyone who believes otherwise doesn't seem to grasp how willing they are/were/ and will be to take down this country. It's the House' responsibility to take care of this.

They made it political.

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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. They absolutely did.....
...But I still think that once again, "our side" engaging them and giving their lunacy any degree of credibility was a massive, massive mistake. They should have been metaphorically shot down early on and at every turn instead of treated with a "Well, it's a good point. We should reduce spending.....yeah, maybe Social Security and Medicare need some tweaking, etc."

Rather than pointing out again and again how wrong they were, and pointing out fact after fact after fact, we put together debt commissions and the like so that it made it seem like "both sides agree" that there is a problem.

So yes they started this, they politicized it and they were going to do this no matter what. But again to use the most apt analogy, like a child who is given far too much leeway and whose bad behavior is tolerated, shrugged off, and even encouraged, when it gets to the point of horror and crisis the people who enabled this should not just go "Well this really is a problem now. How did this happen?!?!?!"
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Obama was willing to use it as well, as some sort of transformational move for his legacy.
That's the part that freaks me out. He ended up taking their side and tied the debt ceiling increase to transforming gov't.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Our side "validated" their lunacy
and for the life of me I can't understand why.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Exactly correct. We have some ideological nutjobs that believe engaging
in a strategy that plays to lose from the get go is brilliance.

If you insist on making our lives and future a game then at least play to win rather than some jacked up bullshit that is predicated on concession.

Yes, you are being extremist and are way out on a bizarrely detached from reality, balls to the wall, fucking trip.

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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. I would love to be pleasantly surprised
but I've been burned too many times. Boy, wouldn't it be cool if he just drew a line in the sand and kept it there? He does sound like he's whining instead of like he's resolved to protect the big three. We deserve the assurance that he will hold firm and he never ever gives us that. Why do we have to petition and beg him to do what should be a given? Unfortunately that would take leadership on his part, and conviction to something other than expediency and I guess that's too much to expect.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. The address WAS about drawing the public's attention to this
And showing them exactly WHO is responsible for this situation.

I'm not sure why people expected some sort of Hollywood throwdown when there's still a deadline that has yet to pass. If that comes and goes with nothing agreed upon, all bets are off.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. It looked like he wasn't in any control. The populace doesn't usually like that. It's not a vote
winner. And that is the politics of it. And this is just my opinion. I didn't expect some sort of Hollywood throwdown. Those are your words, not mine.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Technically, he's NOT in control. This is CONGRESS' responsibility.
He shouldn't have to be out there pointing this stuff out.

I think he did what he needed to do for the audience who doesn't follow this stuff day in and day out. I really don't think a public who is fed a steady diet of junk reality TV is scouring these addresses for the optics to the level that they're scrutinized on political sites.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. you are right, he shouldn't lead at all. I'm glad Lincoln, Kennedy, LBJ never led a thing.
You're right, the President has no role. He is a rubberstamp or a veto. That is all.
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