Argument against using the 14th Amendment: Tribe / NYT

[flamingdem]

------snip

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/opinion/08tribe.html?_r=1

Worse, the argument that the president may do whatever is necessary to avoid default has no logical stopping point. In theory, Congress could pay debts not only by borrowing more money, but also by exercising its powers to impose taxes, to coin money or to sell federal property. If the president could usurp the congressional power to borrow, what would stop him from taking over all these other powers, as well?

So the arguments for ignoring the debt ceiling are unpersuasive. But even if they were persuasive, they would not resolve the crisis. Once the debt ceiling is breached, a legal cloud would hang over any newly issued bonds, because of the risk that the government might refuse to honor those debts as legitimate. This risk, in turn, would result in a steep increase in interest rates because investors would lose confidence — a fiscal disaster that would cost the nation tens of billions of dollars.

Although an authoritative judicial declaration authorizing borrowing above the debt ceiling might alleviate investors’ fears, obtaining such a declaration is no easy task. Only someone who has suffered a “particularized” harm — not one shared with the public at large — is entitled to sue. It would be difficult to conjure up a plaintiff who has suffered such specific harm from an issuance of debt beyond the ceiling. And even if such a plaintiff could be found, increased interest rates would have already inflicted terrible damage by the time the Supreme Court ruled on the matter.

A core function of the Constitution is to “force us into a conversation” about our future, Mr. Obama once wrote. Sometimes, it does this by establishing principles citizens can invoke when they believe the government has overreached. At other times, it does so by directing us back to the political drawing board.

------------------------------------------- snip

[TwilightGardener]

1. Interesting and helpful, thanks.

[flamingdem]

2. It sounds like it would open an expensive can of worms

and put Obama at risk for entanglement with the courts at an intense (insane) teaparty glee causing level.

[TwilightGardener]

8. Yes--sounds like we'd all be happy here for about a day or two, but

it would be a pyrrhic victory.

[DURHAM D]

3. Oh please - he changed his view and many, many others have

rendered an opinion that the 14th is a good option.

But it does not matter now - Obama and the Republicans have come to an agreement.

[flamingdem]

5. Precisely because the 14th was never a real option

and default is not an option. And the repukes control too many votes.

[DURHAM D]

14. You are wrong about the 14th but keep having fun.

[flamingdem]

16. I don't see you writing anything cogent about it

so you're basing your knowledge on exactly what? Link?

[DURHAM D]

18. I don't care to waste my time.

This is a settled matter. Apparently you have missed the discussions or ignored it. I don't care to spend my time on your re-education.

I don't really think you are interested in the facts - you are just trying to defend Obama. That is ok - I told you to just keep having fun.



:hi:

[flamingdem]

20. Why don't you comment on the arguments in the article I posted

Otherwise you're a poster out of the blue with a gripe that is undefined.

I haven't heard anyone who knows what they're talking about able to speak about the 14th amendment on DU. Are you a lawyer? Maybe you understand the economic implications?

[bluestateguy]

4. The welfare of the country is more important

The real world is not a graduate seminar on constitutional law.

[flamingdem]

6. The article is about how the economy would be blasted by using the 14th

so that will hurt the welfare of the country in a very real way.

[Imajika]

7. The 14th amendment is a terrible option..

If you really game it out, you'll see Obama would be massively damaged if he took this route.

[flamingdem]

9. It would be like a continuation of the debt debate x 100

Finally the country would unelect him just to stop hearing about it 24/7

[murielm99]

10. He will be even more damaged if he capitulates.

And he may do just that.

[elleng]

12. 'Capitulates' to what?

Those a**holes can't get their act together long enough to come up with a 'plan' to receive 'yes.'
'

[murielm99]

13. Why are you arguing with both of us?

I want him to use the 14 Amendment. I want him to veto any plan that hurts Medicare and SS.

I am afraid he will capitulate at the eleventh hour, and sign any piece of dreck the repubs come up with. I think he is too worried about being bipartisan, about compromising with extremists. It can't be done, without destroying democracy.

[elleng]

19. 'Arguing?' I'm looking for answers/strategies, as are most of us.

[elleng]

11. And if he didn't?

(if at the 11th hour there is NO solution coming from Congress?)

[Imajika]

15. Then the teabaggers own the mess they made...

There is nothing good that comes from Obama attempting this 14th amendment maneuver. It is probably in our best interests if the Republicans force us into a government shutdown type situation. We won't default right away, but government would begin shutting down and programs would begin losing funding. At the very moment that happens, the public will demand those funds be restored, Obama would have called the GOP's bluff and they'd take any deal they could get (just like what happened in 1995) to end the gridlock.

Seriously, game it out, and you'll see the 14th amendment "constitutional option" would probably destroy our President.

[flamingdem]

17. You know that sounds right. That would utterly put them on the spot

however... Obama is the only non-a***ole in the room. Clinton went struting around talking the 14th amendment, etc... Obama thinks about the troops, the grannies going hungry. He can't create that kind of hurt over political gamesmanship.

Clinton probably would have done it, who knows.

[murielm99]

21. I don't know.

I don't think any of us know. Like you, I have no answers. We elected them to come up with answers. No one is doing that.

[golfguru]

22. k&r n/t