I don't always agree with the President, but you will never see me tear him down in public

[Empowerer]

I don't always agree with the President, but I ALWAYS support him.

Sometimes I disagree with him pretty strongly, but I don't publicly bad-mouth him on internet message boards since I figure there are plenty of criticisms in the public discourse and I don't intend to play into the right wing cabal who are out to get him by giving them more ammunition to use against him.

The people whose opinion I care about and who care about mine know how I feel and know when I don't agree with the President. So there's no need to vent my spleen by trashing him on public message boards.

It's one thing to disagree with or even be disappointed in the President. But some of the nonstop and often petty and repetitive carping about him that I see here is just over the top. And the insistence that anyone who does not participate in it is an "apologist" is off-the-mark. Refusing to join into the Obama bashing that's becoming so prevalent here is not sycophant behavior. In my view, it's just a mature recognition that yelling and complaining on the internet is not necessarily the most effective means for advancing a positive, progressive political agenda.

[LaydeeBug]

1. It's a good thing this is AMERICA, where no one has to walk lock step with anyone else.

Honestly, you OP bewilders me a little bit.

[woo me with science]

2. Oh, bullshit.

Politicians don't change until they hear from you.

National conversations don't change until the people change them.

He has spent the past two and-a-half years validating and cementing Republican lies about the economy and turning what used to be *Republican* talking points into the *bipartisan* national meme. As a result, we are about to slash spending and further starve an economy that is already in desperate straits.

We NEED people to speak out, or this fucking madness will never stop. He SHOULD have started on Day One of his Presidency to change the national conversation and to teach and lead the public to solutions that would actually work.

Instead, we are looking at a world of additional pain.

No, the people should NOT remain silent. They should be screaming bloody hell and demanding accountability.

[Empowerer]

6. Who said anything about being silent or not letting leaders hear my view?

An anonymous internet message board is just not my communication method of choice.

Unfortunately, far too many people seem to think that fussing and fuming on DU and similar sites is THE way to make our voices heard and spend an incredible amount of energy yelling into cyberspace while failing to actually do anything constructive.

While I enjoy discussing political issues online, I don't see this as my only - or even the most important or effective - outlet for political advocacy. There's a really big real world out here and that's where I've chosen to focus my efforts.

[woo me with science]

13. I am wondering

how old you are. You will find, as you grow older, that it is very naive to ALWAYS support any politician. You will also learn that strength and power lie in numbers. DU is as much of a community as any 3D venue, and it is within communities that national conversations are changed.

And, no, you did much more than make the absurdly ironic claim that DU is not your chosen method of communication. The even greater irony in your posts is that, while the targets of your smug keyboard chastisement were busy expressing outrage about POLICIES, you were busy pissing and moaning about THEM.

[Sheepshank]

26. exactly!

[Armstead]

39. The Internet helped the Tea Party organize

You are correct that Internet message boards is not the ONLY vehicle for political action. But it is a very legitimate part of it. It stimulates and helps to drive the political (and larger) conversation.

Not everyone who carps on the Internet does nothing else. Many support candidates when push comes to shove and/or are politically active too.

You are very eloquent about your beliefs here. And no problem with defending President Obama. But it is misguided (in my opinion) to use that eloquence to stifle legitimate disagreement with the mistakes or bad moves and performance of President Obama and the Democratic Party and anger and frustration about the direction they are taking the country.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William769]

5. Maybe thats why he does what he does.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. That is an unhealthy attitude

Unhelpful, too.

[Empowerer]

9. It's unhealthy and unhelpful NOT to criticize the President on internet websites?

Only if you don't live in the real world where there are numerous ways to make our voices heard.

[CakeGrrl]

12. Shouting to the clouds on an internet message board is HELPFUL? Please explain. -nt

[Stinky The Clown]

16. Shouting at cloud shouters on an Internet message board is HELPFUL, though, right? Pls 'splain? -nt

[CakeGrrl]

20. Pastime. I'm not pretending to activism by doing it.

I'm exercising my right to put in my $.02 like everyone else, no more, no less.

If someone agrees with me or takes from whatever I said something they hadn't considered before, that's a bonus. I may not have it acknowledged, but neither am I demanding that it be.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. Quite the change of tune, there

A whole new octave. New melody, new lyrics. Different key, too.

I bet it never occurred to you that for which you decry me is what you use to excuse your own actions.

I love irony.

[Armstead]

40. Well you are practicing activism by doing it

And it is inconsistent to complain as a "pastime" about other people who are posting differing opinions as a pasttime (especialy when they are people who may well be as involved or more involved in issues as you).

[melissaf]

8. You beat me to it, Empowerer!

Nice post. :)

[secondwind]

28. I agree.

[chowder66]

10. Nice. Already they are going after you.....

Not America but AMERICA and now Sycophant!

Wow

[AtomicKitten]

11. If half the keyboard warriors got off their asses and marched

maybe, just maybe the course of history can be moved. Honest brokers critique without vitriol, but that isn't what we see here for the most part.

That is not to say I don't lose my blob at home in front of the TV. Goddammit I am furious that the plea for compromise and shared sacrifice is hollow in practice.

Obama is the horse the Democrats chose and he won fair and square, but the unbridled over-the-top vitriol against him only fuels the GOP. That's precisely the last thing I want to see happen.

As you probably expected, the usual suspects are all up in your thread calling you an apologist or a sycophant, completely misreading and trying to undermine your sincere post. Just know your plea for sanity and solidarity does not fall on deaf ears.

k&r

[Armstead]

41. So it's okay to vent your spleen on the Internet as long as it only supports Obama?

Hoookay.

[AtomicKitten]

45. Are you hearing voices again? I ask because your take-away from my post

bears no resemblance to what I actually posted. Not a surprise to be sure but weird nonetheless. Rage on.

[Armstead]

49. Your post bears no resemblance to reality.

First you assume that anyone critical of Obama here is just a keyboard warrior who does nothing else....Wrong.

You say people who are not happy with the President they supported in 08 should now shut up, no matter how disappointed and frustrated and angry they feel.

Because -- even though you say DU is an empty exercise -- you say we are doing the Republicans work for them.

I realize that sounds ridiculous, but it seems to be an accurate reading of what you said.

Please correct me where I am wrong on this.

[AtomicKitten]

51. Your reading comprehension is atrocious. Purposeful or not, go piss up somebody else's leg.

[Armstead]

52. All I'm asking is that you tell me where I'm wrong on this.

[styersc]

14. If more supporters lived by this standard, perhaps today we

would be talking about steep cuts in Social Security, Meidcare and Medicaid. We owe it to the process to hold our elected offials' feet to the fire! If this deal turns out well and we are able to turn it into positive momentum, those of us who have been blasting the president are as much a part as are the syncophants!!!

The system relies on you speaking your mind constructively and civilly!!!!!!

[Empowerer]

15. What makes you think I don't speak my mind?

There are many ways to speak ones mind - internet discussion boards aren't the only tool.

I choose to speak my mind - civilly and constructively - in venues and manners that I deem to be most effective. An online message board is not the best venue, in my mind.

Unfortunately, many people (obviously, including folks right here in this thread) think that screaming vitriol at the President on DU is the most - in fact, the ONLY - effective avenue for political speech.

I differ.

But I'll bet I'm more effective in my approach than the online screamers are in theirs ...

[jzodda]

17. DU becomes useless without spirited debate

Bash or support-its all here and that's great. If this board were one big Obama admin talking point what would be the point of coming here? Would be more like a a campaign website or something. That would also have the added effect of making the board boring. Since the Dem party is supposed to be the big tent all opposing points of view, even irrational ones, are fine with me.

I am glad there is healthy debate here and I am even more glad for healthy skepticism.

[melissaf]

19. Everyone likes healthy debate and skepticism,

emphasis on "healthy."

[Armstead]

42. That applies to people with all viewpoints

Those who strongly support Obama and Democratic leadership indulge in as many cheap shots, vitriol and other forms of "unhealthy" debate as those who are critical.

It is apples and oranges to claim that one's opinions automatically reflect their behavior, for better OR worse, in either direction.

[DirkGently]

18. Silence is assent. It is irresponsible for a constituent to fail to give voice to criticism.

[Empowerer]

22. Did you actually read my OP before you responded to it?

Unless you believe that DU is the universe, I don't see how you can draw from my OP that I don't "give voice to criticism." I just don't bash President Obama in the blogosphere.

As I've noted, too many people seem to think these message boards are much more than they are. Believing that railing against political figures on online political sites is a more effective political advocacy approach than real-world engagement is politically naïve, to say the least.

[Supersedeas]

25. petty and repetitive carping---yeah, posting on message boards can be cathartic...no?

I...I....I....I....I....I....

They....they....they....they...they...

If message boards are so ineffective....why the self-righteous indignation about them?

Affected much?

[DirkGently]

35. So, somehow DU is worthless as a forum for criticism, but still harmful to Obama? Doublespeak much?

[Meshuga]

21. Please tell me what is the most effective means for advancing a positive...

...progressive agenda. I am all ears.

[Empowerer]

23. A few examples ...

This is by no means exhaustive ...

1. Directly engage with your own representatives and their staffs on various issues you care about (not just the hot button issue of the day)

2. Don't assume that politics is limited to President and US Congress. Get involved at the local level with city, county and state government. Attend city council meetings, school board meetings, county government hearings.

3. Recognize that Presidents, Members of Congress and Senators don't spring to power out of nowhere. Most of them arise from local and state levels. So get involved in local and state campaigns. Identify good candidates and get behind them. If you don't like any of the candidates, find other ones and convince them to run. If you can't find anyone, run yourself.

4. Don't limit your advocacy to speaking to people who already agree with - they don't need you. Seek out people who don't agree with you but have an open mind and work on turning them toward the right direction. Letters to the editor, political forums, etc.

5. Volunteer in a local, state or U.S. official's office answering phones, handling correspondence, planning and staffing events.

[Meshuga]

24. Believe me, I have done most of it in the past (except for going all the way on number 3) and...

...I am active locally and call/write my representatives in congress on specific issues.

But I am not naive to think that what I do or did at the national level ever made any difference. My insignificance when competing with corporate influence is obvious and leads to believe that any kind of hope or change in the current system is nothing but a myth.

[Supersedeas]

29. have you tried donating millions to a 527....it's not like you don't have options

[Meshuga]

30. You are right

I better start saving. :-)

[EffieBlack]

33. If you think that non-millionaires are so impotent in the political process

that it's pointless to even try doing any direct engagement, then I guess ranting online at people who are already likely to agree with you (and if they aren't, they aren't looking to change their minds) would be your only option.

Not an option likely to produce any meaningful results, but an option nonetheless ...

[Supersedeas]

34. impotence and options....humor nonetheless

[Armstead]

43. Many people do that or are involved in ;progressive issues AND complain on internet boards too

[secondwind]

27. Well said. Well said.

[EffieBlack]

32. Very nice!

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. Doo Dah...

...Oh, de doo-da day

[Land Shark]

37. Not an "apologist" just someone refusing to call the good the good and the bad the bad

But that's one of the must fundamental rules relating to integrity: call the good the good and the bad the bad. I do understand the strategic-related reasons for violating this rule, the issue is whether strategy is sufficient as a reason to overcome what amounts to honesty in calling the bad the bad?

[Armstead]

38. His feet need to be held to the fire

We would be even worse off if everyone just vents to their immediate circle of friends and allows the political machine and Beltway pundits and right-wing crazies to be the only public voices in the national dialogue.

That makes it much easier for Obama (or whomever) to just ignore the desires, opinions and objections of their "base." It feeds into the "Just be quiet and sit down and let us adults (extend tax cuts for the wealthy, deny affordable public health insurance, "reform" medicare and social security, pursue "free trade" policies that are decimating our productive economy.....etc.)"

So no we should not give Obama or anyone a free pass.

The reason the Teabaggers have been so successful in changing the agenda is BECAUSE they did not sit down and shut up. Their beliefs are awful, but they do know that you don't get anywhere blindly following partisan leaders they disagree with.

[InvisibleTouch]

44. Thank you, and I agree.

I don't always agree with the President either, and sometimes I'm frustrated that he hasn't taken more drastic action on the things I consider most important (environmental issues) - but backstabbing our own is not the way to move things in a positive direction.

[Maru Kitteh]

46. Me X 1000.

[babylonsister]

47. Rec'd. You speak for me, too. Thank you. nt

[Forkboy]

48. I just can't buy into that thinking.

If I see something that I feel is wrong I have to say so. It's something that goes far beyond politics for me, and something that was driven home to me last month.

I've been friends with someone since I was a teenager (I'm now 43). We lost touch for awhile, but last year we hooked back up. He has met someone that truly makes him happy, and he's had a crazy ass life and deserves some happiness. They are engaged, she is pregnant, they've just found a nice apartment, and I want my friend to be happy.

But last month I was out with them and his girlfriend said something blatantly racist about a man crossing the street in front of us. I didn't say anything. I didn't want to put my friend in the position of having to take his long time friend's side or taking the side of his possibly long time wife. So I stayed silent until they dropped me off a few minutes later (an extremely uncomfortable three minutes for me). I haven't seen either of them since, and have been avoiding them when they try to reach me. And ever since then I've been mad at myself for not saying something. For me it's about self-respect, and I'm highly disappointed in myself for staying quiet. The reason I'm avoiding them is because if I'm around them and she says something else along those lines I will not stay silent again. I can't. And I know it'll cost me a friend that means a lot to me, but if that's what happens over me standing up for what I think is right, then so be it. This world treats us with little respect, and maintaining a sense of self-respect has to be my top priority. Without that I lose everything. This event drove that lesson home big time to me.

I do understand where you're coming from, and I'm not knocking you for taking that position. If you feel that's best for you then by all means, stick to it. But I just can't take that road. It's not about Obama, it's not about Democrats or Republicans...it's about me. Being quiet in the face of things I feel are wrong, in any forum (online or offline), is something that eats at me too much. I can't sit quietly by and watch this world go down the path I feel it's going down. If it makes people angry, or even costs me a close friend, I still have to say something.

Peace

[babylonsister]

53. Wow.

A person with integrity. The wolves raised you right. :thumbsup:

I kid, and you know it. :hug:

[BlueIdaho]

50. The President deserves and honest critique of his job performance

from those of us that worked so hard to elect him. He is an adult trying to do the world's toughest job. I'm sure he would appreciate the feedback. He is very good at some parts of his job and not very good at other parts of his job. I think he should stick to bridge openings and photo ops with girl scouts. He should definitely stop trying to negotiate with republicans, he sucks at that.