If President Obama is a corporate sell out, why did he become a community activist?

[NJmaverick]

With his educational background and academic achievement he could have wrote his own ticket after college. He could have become a well paid attorney working in a luxury office and living the good life. Instead he choose to make much less money working in the inner city and high crime areas helping the poor and those in need. I am sorry, but that doesn't sound like the profile of a man who would sell out the American people for some corporate cash.

[Jim Sagle]

1. He learned from his "mistake."

[NJmaverick]

7. So you think he made a mistake? Living to help others?

then I guess I must have made the same one because I have worked my whole life working for non-profits and the government while spending 25 years volunteering an average of a 1000 hours a year helping others.

[IndianaGreen]

70. There is no profit in community organizing

I believe that was the point my distinguished I/P opponent Jim Sagle was trying to make.

[Ken Burch]

91. Sagle thinks ANY display of genuine idealism or compassion is a mistake

n/t.

[Jim Sagle]

109. Wrong on two counts.

1) You misjudge me based on your misreading of my views on a contentious foreign policy issue.

2) I don't think there is or has ever been anything genuine about Barack Obama's political or social views.

[Ken Burch]

113. It would be easier to avoid misjudging you

If your primary rhetorical tactic wasn't to verbally sneer at people in the hope that your cyber-disses would create the impression that you were so far above the rest of us that you didn't actually have to debate anything on the merits.

[HughMoran]

118. We agree on this point

I occasionally sneer at people, but I also discuss issues with people who seem like they're here to do more than throw grenades.

[Ken Burch]

119. Fair enough.

n/t.

[Jim Sagle]

121. You seem to think dissecting me is going to deflect others from dissecting Obama.

Good luck with that.

[Ken Burch]

122. I'm not against having Obama dissected.

It still goes without saying, however, that HRC would be further to the right as president. Especially since she'd have caused uncontrollable mayhem by vaporizing Iran.

I supported another candidate until he was forced out of the race in the primaries. And nobody reading my posts this week would mistake me for a die-hard loyalist to the administration's policies. Have you not noticed how frequently I've been called an "Obama-basher"(which I'm not, for the record, since I don't personally despise the man as a man, but simply disagree with him on some issues).

And I was trying to give you an honest response as to why you are often misconstrued. Why do you so seldom debate ideas?
Why are your posts so often based solely on insult and invective? In choosing those tactics, you create the impression that the position you take on contentious issues can't be defended on the merits. That's a bad choice. You should never let people think that you don't actually have a real argument for your own views.

[Jim Sagle]

176. It never hurts to prioritize.

;)

[IndianaGreen]

157. I tend to agree with you on both counts

Your views are clearly progressive (I/P forum is what it is).

[swilton]

168. I agree with your views on #2

I have long thought that Obama was totally 'manufactured'

I don't know your views on foreign policy issues.

[StreetKnowledge]

102. Maybe, but he sure as hell was corrupted by the time he stepped into the White House.

I'm through with him. And I honestly hope he's primaried from the left. Otherwise, this shit will just keep going on. I know somebody will say "But then we'll have the Republicans back in power!" I don't buy that, because this health care bill will do him more damage than a primary challenger will.

[NJmaverick]

2. LOL! No answer to the question, but unreccs

that is just too rich:popcorn:

[timeforpeace]

79. Maybe folks are tired of the false dichotomies you specialize in.

[Bonn1997]

3. I wish I could retrieve the thread I started asking the question "Do corrupt people go into politics

or do politics corrupt good people?"

[griffi94]

4. power corrupts

[Thickasabrick]

14. +1

[jefferson_dem]

106. Ignorant dogmatism deludes.

[glen123098]

5. I don't think Obama is a corporate sell out

I just think he's in over his head.

[griffi94]

8. cold comfort

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. Shhhhhhhhhhh!

People get upset when you point out the fallacies they're clinging to!


And thank you for this...

I'd forgotten it too.

[Ken Burch]

12. If Obama were to sign the Senate version of the bill

It would mean he'd forgotten about the communities he used to organize. He wouldn't be the first.

[NJmaverick]

15. Civics 101 the Senate version is going to be blended with the House version in conference

what you see from the Senate is no more likely than the House version to be closest to the bill President Obama will decide to sign.

[griffi94]

17. while i disagree with you

i do admire your zeal in cheerleading this bill.
i think most of us tho are preparing to get bent over.

[NJmaverick]

21. Have you read what Krugman said about this bill?

[griffi94]

37. yep

he compares it to medicare. says get something now and fix it later.
the trouble with that is medicare doesn't mandate purchase of private for profit insurance. jmho but the democrats are now starting to sound like the gop. they've confused the functions of government and business.
i distrust any promise by the federal government to "fix" anything later. look at nafta.
this bill may in fact help some people, it may also hurt that same amount of people, and the very bottom line for me is obama campaigned against mandates in the primaries, he also supported a public option.
i don't care for "bait & switch" no matter which party does it.
i won't call him a sellout but, like it or not, he's been weak on this issue.

[TheKentuckian]

165. Poli=Sci 403

The Senate is running this and the House will be told to get in line on funding, a public plan, and competetion.

Do you think the final bill won't be funded by the Max Tax, do you think a public plan is coming, do you think we are going to get choices? Fuck no.

The House may be permitted to expand subsidies a little or such tinkering but the structure is set.

[Eric J in MN]

174. Nancy Pelosi has caved in advance.

Nancy Pelosi, world's worst negotiator: "We want to defend our position" but "we have to yield on things."

Nancy Pelosi, world's worst negotiator: "The emphasis was not on 'public,' the emphasis was on 'option.'"

Nancy Pelosi, world's worst negotiator: "Whatever we have, it will be great."


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/12/17/MNGS1B5810.DTL&type=politics

[treestar]

9. Good point

Thank you for remembering that.

The term "corporate sellout" is getting just as old as "betrayal."

[Ken Burch]

10. You've never heard of cooptation?

Clinton used to CARE about the poor, before he threw them under the bus.

Lots of people have bartered their souls for power.

[phleshdef]

11. Yea, the whole corporatist meme never makes any sense. He has never displayed a motive...

...nor has the need to display a motive to engage in true "corporatism". He isn't gaining shit from it and even if he never wins another term, he can write his own ticket as far as making more money goes, just off of who he is.

[Donnachaidh]

13. so it would *look good* on his political resume

Setting oneself up with the right sort of *image* can get you into doors you might not have access to.

[NJmaverick]

16. Yeah, like Edwards?

[Donnachaidh]

28. Edwards wasn't a corporate sell out

He didn't welcome the corporations in within a few days of his inauguration.

[NJmaverick]

29. He did make a lot of money as a lawyer, yet had a successful political career

that fact flies in the face of your claim.

[Donnachaidh]

31. Edwards had a successful political career -- and he did it by NOT lying to his base

Unlike your hero, Captain TRANSPARENCY...

[NJmaverick]

33. He did lie to his wife, how do you know he didn't lie to his base?

[Donnachaidh]

35. Edwards couldn't keep it in his pants, yes, but Captain Transparency

held closed door meeting with Big Pharma and the insurance companies -- who is going to be the ones who wind up PAYING for his little closed door meetings?

The middle class -- all of them.

Who will probably benefit BIG TIME from those meetings? Obama and his Chicago cronies....

I'd say Obama f*cking the entire middle class is much more of a crime than JE slapping it to ONE woman on the side...

[NJmaverick]

38. He did more than let it out of his pants, he risked the whole nation's future

running for President when he knew he had a secret that could have sunk him and the Democrat's hopes for recapturing the White House.

[Donnachaidh]

41. I'd say the country's future has now been F*CKED over thanks to this Senate Bill

When the IRS is going to be used as a collection agency for a for profit ponzi scheme? Yeah -- we're screwed. And the one who gets ALL the credit is Barack Obama and his corporocrats.

And we didn't even get told to remove our clothes before we were bent over for this authoritarian coup.... :eyes:

[StreetKnowledge]

104. NJmaverick, seriously.....

The bill that is being proposed is the single worst option we could have ever gotten. People who do not buy awesomely expensive healthcare will be fined for it, either way the middle class of America is going to be hit with four-digit bills every year, either for buying corporate health insurance or being fined for not buying it. Barack Obama has FAILED us. FAILED, NJmaverick. He ran with us to get into the White House, then screwed us in the full light of day. And I will NOT support a person who happily lies to my face, then tries to attack those who fights for real reform, like blasting Howard Dean and attacking those who want to import drugs from Canada. He sold us all out to the corporate locust clouds from the healthcare industry. And then he has the balls to tell us all to keep voting for him?!

He's lost votes. And if somebody like Howard Dean has the guts, he'll decide to take him on from the left. And that, nothing else, will be a shot at the bridge, reminding Mr. Obama who put him in that office. The Progressives are furious now, and that is not gonna help the Democrats in 2010. When they lose seats, they'll have only themselves to blame for it. If they acted as real progressives, this wouldn't be happening. A public option would allow the insurance companies to keep operating for those who like their coverage. But the insurance pigs, no they couldn't have a government option competing against them, so they called the White House, who happily dealt with them. He's done, finished. Progressives would be well-advised to get a primary challenger set up now, so that when 2012 comes around he knows how badly screwed he is.

[NYCGirl]

40. Yeah. he said he worked for a hedge fund and made hundreds of thousands in

such a short time to learn about poor people.

:eyes:

[jenmito]

55. He also lied about why he decided to take matching funds instead of forgoing them like he

originally said he would. The reality was he didn't raise nearly as much as Obama and Hillary, so he "changed his mind" the day before the deadline stating, "the nomination shouldn't be bought." But, of course, he would've remained opted out of the matching funds if he had raised more money. :eyes:

[griffi94]

39. wasn't edwards a plantiff attorney

that's hardly corporate.
maybe you're confusing wealthy with corporate.

[NJmaverick]

42. I am afraid you are the one confused. Please reread my post

and note there is no mention of corporate. Sell out's are people seeking wealth, which Obama clearly didn't. Further I was responding to an op that suggested that the only path to politics was to be a community activist instead of a very well paid lawyer.

[Donnachaidh]

45. Obama had his plan all set, starting with his St. Francis act as a community activist

Please. People are waking up to the BS image he presented to get where he is right now.

[choie]

82. sell outs can also be people

seeking POWER, which Obama clearly has sought. Just because you began your career as an altruist, doesn't mean you remain an altruist. Obama IS a sell out.

[Donnachaidh]

44. they want to switch this onto Edwards because what Obama has done is indefensible

It's the usual ploy of desperate cheerleaders..... :eyes:

[NJmaverick]

46. While there is certainly a lot of publiclly stated love for Howard Dean

I don't think the term cheerleader is appropriate and I know it's inflammatory and wrong (which also undercuts your claims of wanting to do the right thing).

[Donnachaidh]

47. oops -- Edwards doesn't work, so lets' shift this to Dean.

Nice try -- but the BLAME goes directly to Captain Transparency, aka Barack Obama.

[NJmaverick]

51. You are all over this thread, you are really going all out to protect your false MEME

Got news for you people can read for themselves. Many are appreciative of being reminded of the important facts I have brought up. No amount of spin or badgering is going to change that.

[Donnachaidh]

56. just answering your desperate *all over this thread* actions

Dude -- look up cognitive dissonance. It has your picture next to it.

[Donnachaidh]

50. cheerleader is totally appropriate

Especially when you utilize desperate tactics like shifting the conversation to others not involved in the writing of this POS bill which will enrich the wealthy friends of the WH.

[NJmaverick]

54. So you are saying support of Dean is honest but support of Obama is "cheerleading"

how utterly intellectual dishonest of you. shame on you

[Donnachaidh]

57. nice twist -- but another dishonest spin.

Choking on your pom poms?

[NJmaverick]

61. Supporting something good, is better than dishonestly attacking and breaking DU rules

(cheerleader is a banned term in the context you are using it) and acting like your poop doesn't stink. I know a political party that is just jammed packed with people that share your view of being above the rules or the law.

[griffi94]

52. no i got it right

the post ahead of yours said edwards wasn't a corporate sellout, and you replied


"He did make a lot of money as a lawyer, yet had a successful political career that fact flies in the face of your claim."

so you did imply he was a sellout. btw seeking wealth doesn't automatically make one a sellout.

[Donnachaidh]

59. no you didn't get it right -- you read the NJ guys posting

HE was calling him a sell out.

Work on those skills dude.

[NJmaverick]

68. No my point is that making one's self wealthy is not an obstical to a succesful politcal career

so the poster's claims that Obama helped others just to further a political career were invalid.

[tkmorris]

130. "obstical"? Fer chrissake....

[GreenArrow]

75. Edwards benefitted from the status quo.

That's the bottom line.

[GreenArrow]

73. Edwards was a corporate sellout, but

that's another story.

[Splinter Cell]

110. Right...

...because he wasn't fucking elected. ;-)

[phleshdef]

19. Thats a really stupid thing to say when you are talking about BARACK OBAMA.

Only someone completely out of touch with the mainstream would thing Barack OBama NEEDS help getting access to doors right now.

[Donnachaidh]

30. reading comprehension skills lacking?

let me guess -- mclb?

[HopeOverFear]

22. Obama had no desire to enter politics when he decided to go back to chicago

instead of taking a job as a judge's clerk (or whatever it is). That decision wouldn't come for another few years.


Try again.

[Donnachaidh]

26. really? And you know this how?

??

[HopeOverFear]

34. Because I read his autobiography. THAT'S HOW.

:eyes:

[Donnachaidh]

36. and he was being 100 per cent HONEST in that, right?

:rofl: :rofl:

Captain Transparency rides again.... :rofl:

[jonnyblitz]

65. are you really that fucking NAIVE? books politicians write are

nothing but calculated propaganda to bamboozle the masses with BULLSHIT.

if you wanted an honest assessment of George Bush would you read a book that HE wrote about himself and consider it fair and not complete SPIN? give me a break. :crazy:

[treestar]

158. If you have that attitude why bother at all?

People who are suspicious of those who run for office just because they do must give up, no? There is nothing to fight for.

Just allow people to enjoy the "figurehead" being a black man for once.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cherokeeprogressive]

80. B.A. in political science in 1983.

[Ken Burch]

90. So. the presidency is just a stepping stone?

:eyes:

[vaberella]

18. I don't know. DU hasn't told me yet. n/t

[Odin2005]

I think he's in over his head, being intimidated by the intrenched interests.

[abq e streeter]

20. Just recced ; still below 0 though.

BTW, I'm in the "getting more disillusioned with Obama every day" camp, but you've asked a perfectly reasonable question and unreccing means ( I guess) that some people don't want this to be discussed, and I disagree with that totally. Again, a perfectly reasonable question to which I have no answers , only guesses. I wish I knew, because I don't know if he's a sell out, or now truly believes the course he's chosen is best, or even if he's been threatened or blackmailed. All I know is he wouldn't be the first genuinely idealistic person to abandon those ideals ( if that is , in fact, what he's done;I'm not saying one way or another because I just don't know) once they got to the political "big leagues". And the community activist part of his life does prove he at the very least, WAS a man of ideals and principle. That's exactly what I don't understand, and may never, about him, is how he got from there to here...

[polichick]

23. That was then, this is now. Stuff happens. nt

[NJmaverick]

27. That's pretty weak

[polichick]

152. imo the president's performance has been pretty weak on this...

That was then, this is now is unfortunately the truth as far as the president's behavior goes.

[GreenArrow]

24. That was then, this is now

What do you think "sellout" means, anyway.

[NJmaverick]

25. Sell outs have to have something you want. Obama clearly is not impressed by wealth and luxury

[Donnachaidh]

32. back away from the koolaid counter

NOT impressed by wealth and luxury?

So, he's living in a trailer behind the White House? :sarcasm:

[NJmaverick]

49. sorry but you will have to do better than koolaid comments and sarcasm emoticons

I want FACT and reason, not bullshit.

[GreenArrow]

64. No, what is it that makes someone a sellout?

[Eric J in MN]

97. Obama doesn't seem greedy or obsessed with wealth and luxury...

...but we have a lousy system for people who run for president.

They raise money by having dinners which only people who can spend over a thousand dollars to attend can go to.

The people who could buy the higher-priced tickets got more access to candidate Obama.

Lobbyists weren't allowed to buy tickets, but their spouses could buy two tickets.

[Warren Stupidity]

161. So he like gave the book proceeds to charity?

On what factual basis do you conclude that "Obama clearly is not impressed by wealth and luxury" ?

[depakid]

43. Innaccurate framing- not so much a sell out- but conciliatory and a consensus builder

as opposed to a "fierce advocate" and hard nosed fighter, who welcomes (and defines himself by) making (or recognizing) certain sorts of enemies.

[NJmaverick]

48. Are you saying that there isn't frequent accusations that he is a "sell out"?

unless you are (and we both know you can't honestly say no) then it is an accurate "framing" as you put it.

[depakid]

58. No, I'm saying a conciliatory, consensus building approach won' get it done on the domestic front

which I surmise is the main theme behind what's been going on.

Of course, that doesn't explain things like this- which caught my attention early on:

December 07, 2006

As Obama-mania sweeps across the land and has Democrats everywhere buzzing, I find myself a bit wary of it all. Not that I'm a single-issue voter, but when it comes to civil justice issues, Illinois senator Barack Obama is a bust. His willingness to buy the corporate line about class action "reform" last year prevents me from joining the hallelujah chorus.

Pic_obama_bio

The 2005 Class Action Fairness Act (CAFA), a pet cause of George W. Bush, essentially forced most state consumer class actions into the backlogged and Republican dominated federal courts. Like the bankruptcy bill before it, class action reform was a special interest extravaganza, with the insurance, credit card, banking, pharmaceutical and auto industries hiring so many lobbyists that there was nearly one for every member of Congress....

Obama's state was also the focus of intense media campaigns surrounding the bill sponsored by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. But when the bill came up for a vote, Obama's fellow Illinois democrat, Sen. Dick Durbin, didn't cave. Potential presidential rival Hillary Clinton voted against the bill. Even John Kerry, who went on national television during the 2004 presidential debates and said, "John Edwards and I support tort reform," voted against this bill.

So what's up with Obama? No surprise here, but maybe it's the $2 million in campaign contributions he got from law and lobbying firms that represent many of the big business interests behind the bill. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, he got $60,000 from Mayer, Brown Rowe & Maw, the heavyweight lobbying firm whose partners reportedly helped write CAFA. Obama also got $70,000 from Sidley Austin, home of the notorious Dan Troy, the former FDA general counsel who used his government perch to help drug companies win lawsuits filed by injured consumers.

Obviously the class action vote was just one among many, but I do find it telling. Either Obama didn't fully understand the implications of the bill for consumers (who may be shut out of court when they're ripped off for relatively small amounts of money), or he was voting with an eye on the White House and courting future campaign contributors in the business world. Neither scenario gets me especially excited about the Democratic Party's new rock star.

and THIS:

January 30, 2006

Sen. Barack Obama said he would vote Monday to filibuster Judge Samuel Alito's confirmation to the Supreme Court, but he conceded the effort would be futile and criticized Democrats for failing to persuade Americans to take notice of the court's changing ideological face.

"The Democrats have to do a much better job in making their case on these issues," Obama (D-Ill.) said Sunday on ABC News' "This Week." "These last-minute efforts--using procedural maneuvers inside the Beltway--I think has been the wrong way of going about it."

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-141442394.html

This latter bit makes the administration's failure to push hard for reconciliation somewhat mystifying, don't you think?

[NJmaverick]

63. I would disagree to a degree with your assessment

I think that we are seeing the natural clash of idealists vs pragmatists. Idealists tend to see pragmatists as sell outs who don't have strong values, while pragmatists tend to see idealists as naive and their own worse enemies.

As I read your second article it seems that Obama was knocking procedural tricks, so it would actually explain his lack of a desire to try reconciliation.

[depakid]

69. A pragmatist would use reconciliation to gain more effective and responsible legislation

which is currently being thwarted by a decidedly undemocratic procedural trick.

A pragmatists would get 'er done with the least interference from ideologues and the corrupt.

[NJmaverick]

77. I am a pragmatist so I feel comforable speaking on their behalf

a pragmatist sees the 2008 victories more as a condemnation of the GOP (for ruining our nation) than an endorsement of either the Dems or liberal values. How we see things is we have to earn that endorsement by showing we can get things done and turning around the economy (we tend to see politics as being about economic success. get that and you get elected and win the prize of dictating social policy and foreign policy to a limited degree). Health care definitely has economic implications so it's added to the mix. As a pragmatic person I want to have a bill passed. Doesn't have to be perfect as it can be adjusted in time. Still this is a huge over arching bill and it takes care of a lot of issues. Fixing the small stuff later on will be doable once the political capital is earned. So if all goes well and the economy starts turning around. The Dems can go into 2010 with an improving economy, health care reform, and maybe even an energy independence/global warming bill. With that they can win the public's endorsement and then you can start seeing a more progressive agenda and attitude than you are seeing now.

[Born_A_Truman]

53. K&R!

[DURHAM D]

60. To establish a political base in Chicago - and it worked. nt

[NJmaverick]

62. That hardly seems like a plan of a young man coming out of college

is there some sort of reason you think this way?

[DURHAM D]

99. Cause I'm smart and I have been politically active for a very long time. nt

[emilyg]

74. Bingo.

[lapfog_1]

66. A scene from a movie comes to mind.

Dorothy: You are a BAD man!

President Obama: No no my dear, I'm a very good man, just a very bad President.

Right now, he is still behind the curtain, fooling the gullible.

Of course, when he finally gets in touch with his own good nature and sheds the image shaping, he finds that he CAN be a very good President.

[NJmaverick]

81. Watching TNT are you?

[lapfog_1]

85. Not at present, but I grew up watching this movie

once a year around Thanksgiving / Christmas. It was only shown on TV once a year (not like now), and it was an event. Advertised for weeks ahead of time. Everybody would gather around the color (if you had one) TV and watch and eat pop corn and candy apples and ice cream. One of my favorite childhood memories.

[thelordofhell]

67. It's a secret wrapped in an enigma around a perplexity

It's all a part of Obama's secret corporate sellout/fascist Muslim/conservative Democrat lifestyle.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[FrenchieCat]

71. It started way back, right after he was born in Kenya!

Ayers is at the center of it.

It's all a TARP!

[Garam_Masala]

76. First, there is a oversupply of lawyers

so fresh graduates do not have a easy time making money.
If you don't believe me check your local yellow pages.

Second, he had to start somewhere, attorney work for public
service type outfits is usually the easiest to find.

Third, he did not get big corporate contributions until he got
elected as senator from Illinois.

[NJmaverick]

78. People with his credentials NEVER have a problem

he was the best of the best.

[Garam_Masala]

87. Do you have a link to his grades from Law School?

I don't recall seeing it in news reports.

And it was not his credentials, it was his intelligence which
helped him shine. There are tons of law graduates floundering around,
making very little money.

[Hekate]

128. Don't you have to have high grades to become editor of the Harvard Law Review?

That wasn't exactly a "social promotion".

Hekate

[NJmaverick]

142. Being the editor of the Law Journal is even more impressive than his grades

[FrenchieCat]

84. He was a community activist BEFORE he attended law school.

In fact, he attended law school precisely because he saw the limits of what he could do as a Community activist for the community.

Since you are still here, Try again.

[Garam_Masala]

88. As usual you are missing the thrust of my POV

"He worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1992 to 2004."

He got his start as a NON-corporate professional.

[Ozymanithrax]

83. Governing Sucks...

Obama won the election, and how did we reward him, by making him govern.

He gets into that chair and must then decide after long hours of hearing classified briefings from both U.S. and allies how to deal with issues such as war. He must make a decision on information that he can not chair concerning acts done for reasons we will never hear. But if it violates our ideas of what a liberal or a progressive would do, why he has become a corporate sell out.

He initiates a debate on Health Care, a debate that the former administration never even started. Congress creates a bill that addresses one of his signature issues, a bill that is important to both individuals and the nation. Of course, it doesn't go well, and the bill is weak. Because Obama is Governing that means he has sold out to Corporations.

No doubt, tomorrow, next week, and next year he will be forced to govern in ways we don't like concerning critical issues.

Yes, governing sucks. It would have been better to let McCain and Palin have the job. Let them be Neocon corporate sell outs. Let them make the decision on health care, Bank Regulation, Education, and everything else that is critical to Americans.

We should not have fought so hard to win, so we can stay true to our ideals and pure in our motives. We should let the Republicans remain in control so we can bitch about them.

[Moosepoop]

133. +1 n/t

[tblue]

86. I've thought a lot about this and I've read his books.

Here's what I think is going on with Obama: (Granted, this is IMHO.)

Obama was a black man raised in a white family, who felt abandoned by his black father. That has haunted him throughout his life. As a young man, he desperately craved the "black experience.". It was foreign to him but, he felt, crucial to his identity. (As a mxed race American with identity issues of my own, I totally 'get' where his head was at.). He reads about Dr. King and other heroes of the civil rights movement, and that fight against racism, which is something Obama never experienced firsthand, and it makes him realze how much he's missed out on in his own life, growing up in multicultural places with a very loving white family.

So, to develop the other cultural side of his heritage, he goes to NYC and then takes the job in inner-city Chicago. There he finds he is appreciated as brilliant, eloquent, sensitive to the deprivation and injustice he sees. and he feels for once that he really belongs, he is blends in finally. But, If you read his Dreams book, you'll see, he cares about those people served by his community organiztiion, but never wholly owns their problems. He encourages the people to unite and work to better their own lives, seek better treatment by city officials, and set higher goals for their children. He surprises everyone, including himself, by, on the fly, making a "yes we can" kind of speech, which was well received. But his fight on behalf of those people never goes much beyond that and some meetings with African American and other local leaders, politicians, and agency heads. He never made demands, never got righteously indignant, as far as I can tell.

As a result, some changes were made for the better, but a lot remained undone. And then it was time for him to leave and start law school.

So basically, I see Obama as a good man who never got the love he needed from his father, who wanted desperately to be "black enough." I'm sure he cared about that Southside community, but I don't believe he showed any kind of driving passion for justice or a desire for a great upheaval or that he considered theirs a cause he to give his all for.

That's how I see our President in his Community Organizer days. It's not a judgment, just an observation based on what I've read and seen of him coupled with a little of my own experience with race and identity. I understand his inner struggles with that too well. I think it does infiorm how I understand him as President today. Would love to hear what others here think.

Sorry if there are typos in this post, but I'm tyiping on my phone.

[FrenchieCat]

92. I see a much deeper meaning in what he did in reference to his community activism....

Although some of what you have included is correct.

I don't believe that he didn't know what it was like to be Black. As a biracial person raised by a White Mother, I can tell you that I knew all too well what being Black was, because it ain't something that you can just turn off, cause you are walking around with White People. In fact, the fact that you are Black has little to do with being around other Black people or not. Like he said, doesn't matter who you are, when you are trying to hail a cab in New York, you can have a giant loving White family; but what the taxi driver see is still a Black man. I think he knew this since early in life, long before he left Hawaii for California. After all, he had Black Friends in Hawaii, so it ain't like he was just the only one!

While at Occidental, he became politically active. he worked on the issue of Apartheid. He spoke on the issue, and was a passionate advocate for abolishing it.

I think that after graduating from Columbia, he decided that he wanted to become a community organizer, not because that would help him live as a Black man (cause he'd been doing that for some time), but because he was genuine interest in making a difference. He did grow up partially in Jarkata, one of the poorest Cities in the world. He knew poverty from way back. His mother's job was to empower women in Indonesia. In effect, she too was a community organizer. In addition he was also raised quite imporverished. I have to imagine that he didn't get a whole lot of gifts came Christmas time, and that even owning real nice Basketball shoes must have thrown his grandparent's budget off (Grandpa didn't really work much).

So he went to Chicago to make a difference, and he did it in the way that he had seen his mother do it; encouraging those who were directly affected by an issue to become directly empowered in working that issue. In fact, that is exactly the role of a community organizer; to organize a community to gain what it seeks. He was good at this, precisely because he kept a low profile and allowed individuals to speak for themselves. he wasn't an Al Sharpton who was going to seek the microphones and empower himself. However, at some point, he realized the limits of what a community organizer could do. You can only affect a relatively small community (even in a big place like Chicago), and he wanted to make a bigger difference than that. So he went to law school; of course, he chose the one his father had attended.

When he came out of there, he was a Civil Rights Attorney, taught constitutional law and worked for Project Vote (again, helping citizens empower themselves via the ballot box).

It wasn't till after all of that, that he decided to run for state office.

So I don't see him as a corporate anything; not a tool, not a toadie, or the likes that he is being called today. I think he cares, wants to empower this country, and give citizens more of a say. And no, I don't think that he is heavy handed in his approach in trying to get his way; but I don't believe that he thinks that this is what the constitution was all about. I think he really is about empowering others to gain the changes that they seek....and that is exactly how he ran his election campaign. To this day, he is allowing the Congress to do what they do, and we all have had ample time to show up at Town Halls and have our say, and organize and do whatever it is that we needed to do to tell congress what we wanted in that health Care bill. The fact that many of us chose to sit on our ass, in front of a computer and argue about single payer vs. a public option and how this administration wasn't doing enough for us, is ironic. We were supposed to be on the front line, fighting for what we wanted, and pressuring congress to get it done. Instead, we shitted on Barack Obama almost everyday, waiting for him to do what we decided he should do to get it done. In otherwords, we did the exact opposite of what folks who want change are supposed to do; we didn't organize in any great deal, and we didn't focus so much on congress, as we did on this President. We missed a boat, and now we are finger pointing. We thought the whole thing was supposed to come from somewhere else, but not really from us....and so we get the bill we deserved.

PS. I don't think that he ever "planned" on being President, or even a U.S. Senator. I think those opportunities presented themselves, and he acted upon them. But there was no plan. Black folks don't normally plan to become President real early in life....until perhaps, now.

[tblue]

123. Thank you for discussing this with me.

I don't know anyone who's read both books.

As a black person raised by an Asian mother, I experienced rejection less by white people than by my own community, which can be just as hurtful.

I just want to say that there are two sides to the black experience. One is about how you're (mis)treated by whites, and the other is about feeling a part of the black community. I think Obama had to go looking for both, really. He went to New York and Chicago at least partly for that reason. Yes, he had black friends, but I didn't see anywhere in his book that he experienced white prejudice in his formative years. He had to go to where it was.

And you are right. He was a civil rights attorney, but there's not much discussion of it in his book, as I recall.

I've been to Africa and I work in an org that serves African refugees. There is a certain clarity in the black African experience of coming from a majority black nation. A lot of people assume every black person experiences racial interactions in the same way. It's not true. In any given situation, any black person may be treated a certain way, but we don't all experience the same situations. Some of us, like Barack, grow up in places where being black isn't looked down upon.

Did you read that old article someone posted here announcing Barack becoming the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review? It was very telling. He is not an Al Sharpton, as you said, and he was anything but, back then. But I think he never could be an Al Sharpton, or a Jesse or a Malcolm or a Martin anyway because he never lived through what they lived through. He experienced that as an outside observer who inserted himself, with good intentions for sure, into that environment. I think that explains a lot about Barack as a man and as President. It helps me understand him when I remind myself of where he came from.

Sorry for the looooong posts.

[FrenchieCat]

125. I like long posts. I have almost forgotten what it is like to have a conversation here at DU!

I was raised in France, and France is supposed to be accepting of Black Folks....or so at the time. But I still experienced prejudice, and I'm near light tan with light eyes. But still, I was different, and that was all it took. My classmates called me "La petite Negresse", which is not exactly a nice name, although I guess it wasn't profane; but Kids can be cruel.

Obama does write in his book about his feelings of some awkwardness in reference to the only other Black child in his school, a little girl, when he first came back from Indonesia. I don't believe they ever spoke, although I think he wanted to. I do remember reading that he did experience prejudice, although he did not elaborate, possibly because that is not what the book was about primarily, and he has never seem to be one who would make race an issue, even back in '95, when he wrote his first book. He also spoke about it in his speech on race, and so there can be no doubt, that he certainly did deal with prejudice in Hawaii.

I agree that he left Hawaii looking for something, and I wouldn't be suprised that the Black experience would have been part of it. Obviously involving himself in issues such as Apartheid, traveling to Africa; all were actions taken so that he could discover himself. However, I experience something similar as he did; going from not really knowing any other Black folks, to living in a predominently Black Neighborhood in Richmond and then in Oakland, California. I don't think that I "inserted" myself into my experiences while living there....but I do think I learned and grew as a person, and grew a dimension that wasn't as clear before. However, the clinical approach you ascribe to his experience is a bit subjective. As someone who is similar in some ways to both you and he, I don't necessarily sense that he did anything different from what millions of young people do, in terms of finding themselves. And I don't consider his experience to being that different from that. At the same time, he did experience something similar to what other young Black folks experience; those who are well educated, have traveled, and come from a diverse background experience. After all, there are many more of us out there than many know; and we are just as Black as anyone else, because a Black experience, as you say, is not a singular thing.

[Hekate]

129. Tblue and Frenchie: thank you for these 4 posts. In a sea of vitriol,your conversation stands out...

... as intelligent, well-informed (you actually read Obama's books!), thoughtful, heartfelt and well-articulated.

My gods, I seem to remember that's why I came to DU in the first place.

As a non-mixed-race person I can't add anything to your observations along that line, but as a person who grew up in Hawai'i and didn't leave until my early 30s, I appreciate that you both acknowledge the influence that being from Hawai'i has had on Barack Obama. I've given that considerable thought over these last couple of years, and I believe that Hawai'i had a profound effect on him and on the identity-choices he made as a young person.

When I lived there I observed that cultural and ethnic identity are not necessarily fixed and can be malleable, and that spoken language and choice of marriage partner play a large role in that. The ability to speak pidgin can place you as one who belongs, regardless of color; while the ability to speak standard English can mark you as one who is upwardly mobile. Bilingualism is common. If you are haole (white) or black, marrying into a "local" family gives Island roots to both you and any children you may have.

It's very late at night and I may not be explaining this well enough. I hope I don't inadvertently give offense.

But if young Barry Obama had made the choice to remain an Islander, he could have shelved much of his identity crisis by marrying some nice girl from a Hawaiian-Japanese-Danish family (which was the mix of one of the families I used to babysit for in high school) and his children's African grandfather would have been just an exotic highlight in their family genealogy, while their haole tutu would have been the not-exotic-at all great-grandma across town. Instead he came to the Mainland in search of an African-American identity, became Barack Obama, and married Michelle.

In reading "Dreams" I never got the sense that he rejected his Island origins, only that he needed greater scope than he could ever find there. However, in so much that he appears to be, I do sense that at his core.

All I can say about his choices is, lucky us. I think he's going to be one of our great presidents.

Hekate

[NJmaverick]

134. That was a very thoughtful post

I think you missed one thing though. He was an avid comic book reader as a kid. The comics he read taught him over and over again that people with the ability to do so, help others. I think that it played a big aspect in his life. I think it instilled in him the value that you are here to help others. I can relate as I am around his age and I grew up to develop those same values.

[kenny blankenship]

89. If ex-Resident Bush is a born again fundynut, why did he drink and drug 'til 40?

Sometimes we have to stumble down to a bad place to realize that we really don't want to waste the rest of our lives there anymore.
I believe people can change.

[NJmaverick]

139. Bush didn't change, he was still a bad person

good people don't turn bad.

[Skittles]

93. to get support from the only people who would vote him into office

[FrenchieCat]

114. Who would those people be? Black people?

cause I don't know if Clinton would have won without them either.
Could you help me with this theory of yours?

[Eric J in MN]

94. Regardless of whether Obama deserves to be called a sellout,

...lots of sellouts were idealistic for many years, and then sold out.

Being a sellout means going from liberal ideals to being pro-corporate.

[jgraz]

95. NJ, why is it that all your posts have negative recs?

Could it be that the DU community is trying to tell you something? :shrug:

[dave29]

96. Yeah, there's a whole lot of group think going on at DU these days

minus the "think"

[NJmaverick]

136. LOL!

:spray:

Have you notice the numbers reccing are not matching the numbers posting?

[FrenchieCat]

98. Same reason I get the same thing.

If I start a Thread, 1 second after posting, I'm in negative terratory.

This "community" as you term it is falling apart.
They are lotsa mouths, but most don't really do more than
repetitively complain about everything using catch phrase,
and scant evidence. They make pronouncements based on speculation
at its worse, and consider themselves righteous and justified,
when in their hearts, they know that they are oftentimes being
intellectually dishonest in order to make their chosen point.

Further, there is no longer much debate and conversation allowed here
because enough rabid Anti-Obama drones
have decided that certain voices ought to get the treatment,
and so it goes.

What this does say is much more about the DU community than it does about anyone poster;
dissenting views are not tolerated around here,
and the Kool Kids own the playground.

I always thought of this place as somewhat of a zoo,
but now, I think of it as an elementary school,
where the bullies think they are in charge;
but in charge of what? that is a hard question.

But you know what, I don't think that NJ really gives a shit.
I know I don't.

[NYC_SKP]

100. Help, please...

I know you have an awesome list of media contacts.

a good DUer is looking for one, maybe you could reply to his post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x77348

TIA.

NYC_SKP

[Egnever]

117. +1

[NJmaverick]

137. It's an invisible army, notice the numbers reccing don't match the numbers or opinions posting?

for all we know most of the recs are from sock puppets and freepers freeping DU (after all they freep polls and they seem to be reccing the posts that hurt the Dems while unreccing those supporting the Dems)

[QC]

143. Maybe people are just fed up with your relentless bullying. n/t

[NJmaverick]

135. Interesting question, I discount the invisible army as it may very well be freepers freeping DU

after all the posts with the most recs tend to be most hurtful to the party they hate. I notice that the people who actually post don't post in anywhere near the numbers that the invisible army does. So why are you so concerned with the invisible army of freepers and sock puppets? Do you count on them as a source of self esteem? Are you so easily manipulated?

[HillGal]

101. When you think about it, what did he really do? The area he

supposedly helped is still poorer then poor, you have honest hard working people (if they can find a job) surrounded by unimaginable crime, living in fear. How did his constituents benefit from him? how are they faring today?

[FrenchieCat]

115. Sarah, is that you?

[HillGal]

145. No, but we need to start be more honest with ourselves and take

our rose colored glasses off. There's a lot to be pissed off about lately and I'm finding myself becoming more reflective, and questioning more instead of just going along with the status quo.

[FrenchieCat]

155. You're going Rogue?

[Better Believe It]

103. Obama is writing his own ticket. He became President of the United States, the most prominent ...

CEO position in the United States. He has been living the good life for sometime now. And it's getting better.

How do you think Barack Obama will do after his presidency is over?

He'll be able to write his own ticket to work for any Wall Street firm he likes.

They owe him .... big time.

[NJmaverick]

138. You don't have a good idea of the burden of being President if you believe he is living the good lif

life. He has little to know free time and is dealing with the burden of sending men and women to die and be hurt. Nothing fun about being President and that is why most age very quickly in th position.

[Better Believe It]

144. Are we also suppose to feel sorry for George Dubya? Let me shed a tear.

Want the burden of President Obama's wars lifted? Bring our troops home. That'll lift it!

[NJmaverick]

151. For all his bad intentions I suspect it did bother him on some level

I don't feel bad for him, but I am pretty sure he felt bad about it.

[jefferson_dem]

105. Three-Dimensional Chess...

:)

[ShortnFiery]

107. Like far too many. After making $$$, he's changed. Obama's 100% Corporatist now.

[NJmaverick]

140. Sorry you need to offer up more than that to explain a man giving up a life time of values

the man that still loves a good game of Basket Ball or a walk in his old neighborhood does not suddenly turn into a wealth loving corporate sell out.

[donco6]

148. Yes. Why ask about motives when actions say it all? n/t

[QC]

108. Reagan was a liberal Democrat and union member at one time.

Margaret Thatcher was the daughter of a greengrocer.

[NJmaverick]

141. There is a difference between liberals out of self interest and those that help others

liberals of self interest will change as their self interests change. Those that help others continue to be good people because the self interests don't matter.

[WT Fuheck]

111. you got to be "in" before you can sell out

[rapturedbyrobots]

112. because it would help him get elected

i know many lawyers who have gone to do 'community' work (aclu and other ngo's) with the intention of going into politics or landing a good and secure gov. job in the future. its just another way up another ladder. you have to forego the 6-figure firm pay for a few years, but get a lot of political clout in the process. do not underestimate the will of the politico. i knew one girl (lawyer) who started sleeping with an afl-cio regional director just for the political connections. just because people are in the business (and it is a business) of helping people doesn't mean they are well-intentioned. i've encountered many, many people who actually loathe (usually openly) the people they are supposedly helping. its funny that the communities that obama was 'organizing' whatever that means (i guess the poor can't organize themselves) rejected him in his run for office against former black panther bobby rush. it wasn't until they fixed him a nice district with more upper middle-class white folks that he could run successfully.

[FrenchieCat]

116. He did community work BEFORE going to law school......

way before.

The rest of your history is incorrect as well.

His first elected office that he held, as state Senator,
was won by voters residing in a predominantly Black district.

Barack Obama was beaten by the incumbent who was endorsed by Bill Clinton,
only when he ran for a House seat.

Then, Obama came back and won the whole damn state.....
and it had nothing to do with his address.

Funny how the uninformed think they have the fucking answers,
When all they have is some bullshit that they pulled out of their ass.

[rapturedbyrobots]

150. actually

he did his community work in chicago from 85 to 88. three years right before law school...not exactly a life of service...and certainly not way before becoming a lawyer. and yes, he was a state legislator for 3 years before getting crushed by bobby rush. i should've qualified my comment as referring to national politics. and gerrymandering had everything to do with his initial success there. but all your nitpicking doesn't change the point that just because someone is doing 'community' work doesn't mean they're well intentioned or actually give a shit about the people they are working with. npr did a really good piece about all the kids going to israel/palestine to work in ngo's who don't know anything about the mid east conflict, or care, and are loathed by the palestinians they are supposedly there to help...but they keep going just to get a foot in at the state department later. not saying they are all like that, or that obama necessarily is. but to assume that being a corporate sellout and having done community organizing are mutually exclusive (as the op did) is not right.

[HopeOverFear]

156. Seriously, how sad is it to be that cynical?

*smh*

[cornermouse]

167. He "won" his seat by making sure

the opponent was disqualified. You know that. You said this morning that you're a preacher's wife. Shame on you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Palmer_(Illinois_politician)
"Obama challenged Palmer's hastily gathered nominating petitions and those of the three other prospective candidates. Nearly two-thirds of the signatures on Palmer's nominating petitions were found to be invalid, leaving her almost 200 signatures short of the required 757 signatures of registered voters residing in the Senate district; neither of the other three prospective candidates had the required number of valid signatures, leaving Obama, who had filed nominating petitions with over 3,000 signatures on the first filing day, as the only candidate to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary ballot.<9><10>

Obama said that the challenges were necessitated by the obvious flaws in the challengers' signature sheets. "To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had been set up," he said in a 2007 interview with the Chicago Tribune"

[Hippo_Tron]

120. He probably became a community organizer because it's good politics

I can't be certain of that and perhaps his political ambition came later. Regardless he isn't a "corporate sellout". He's a rational politician who wants to be a two term President just like the rest of them. Whether we like it or not, corporations by virtue of the people they contribute to have a ton of power. Don't get me wrong, I think there are people that would do it differently. I think some people if they were Presient would huff and puff an draw "lines in the sand" as people here are suggesting. And I think we would end up with no bill whatsoever just as we did in 1994 when Clinton waved around his veto pen at the state of the union.

[Dinger]

124. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=388x6697#6703

[FrenchieCat]

126. I believe that was another poster taking it upon himself

to somehow believe that NJ needed "Help"......

I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread so much.
It's not like NJ started that thread. :shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

127. I posted the same link upthread (see post #22)

whenever i participated in a subforum and somebody "rallied the troops" like that, the thread was LOCKED. they must be cutting people some slack to blow off steam . :shrug:

[quaker bill]

131. It is like the "Certificate of Live Birth"

it is conspiracy hatched up long ago on the assumption that he would one day be seriously running for President.

[ipaint]

132. It was a means to an end.

He wanted to move up the political ladder and was considered an outsider in the community he needed votes from. The move was as much if not more politically motivated i.e. pragmatic rather than primarily a humanitarian sacrifice on his part.

Obama is nothing if not pragmatic.

[AngryAmish]

146. He did become a high priced attorney. The hours suck.

He quit for the same reasons most young associates quit.

[FrenchieCat]

154. Can you provide some links on that......

seems like I missed that part of his life.
Oh wait! It didn't happen. :eyes:

[AngryAmish]

164. You are right, I am wrong

He was a summer associate at Sidley n Austin when he met his wife.

[NorthCarolina]

147. I think he's simply a DLC Democrat who campaigned as a Progressive

but governs as a Corporate Conservative once elected. I think this is pretty much the typical tactic employed by all DLC members running for public office.

[goldcanyonaz]

149. My recommend didn't show up and the counter was at zero.

*ponders*

[Synicus Maximus]

153. Because it was a good first step into politics and the Chicago

machine?

[donheld]

159. He became a sell out long AFTER he was a community activist.

He did just like you said. Then went to congress and bowed to the pressure of corporations.

[Warren Stupidity]

160. Then and now.

One sells out after a period of youthful idealistic activism. It is a pretty standard pattern.

Do try again.

[cornermouse]

162. Not-so-funny thing.

I watched a repeat clip about a community organizer on Moyers this weekend. Then I thought about the way Obama has given in to people like Ben Nelson and Lieberman through the whole health care/insurance/whatever you want to call it thing. I don't see any resemblance and I have real difficulty in seeing him being as active as Mr. Meacham. I really don't.

[shadesofgray]

163. Why did't he STAY a community activist

[Progressive_Angel]

166. look

community organizer looks good on a harvard law school application

[FrenchieCat]

171. Is there a rule or something?

He stated that Community Organizers can only do so much,
and that he wanted to do more.

Is that a crime?
Are you saying he should have stayed in his place,
and that was it forever and ever.

Where is Giulianni and Sarah Palin when you need them? :shrug:

[NJmaverick]

173. He felt that he could do more good if he could change the policies that put the people in need

[Romulox]

169. "Plausible denial". nt

[ZombieHorde]

170. If President Obama is an adult, why are there pictures of him as a child?

I am not saying he is a corporate sell out, but your OP contains a fallacy.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

172. ...and a civil rights attorney! n/t

[Canuckistanian]

175. And Tom Delay started out as a bug exterminator

Sooner or later, they ALL become slaves to THE MONEY.

And if THE MONEY likes them, they become prominent. That's how it works, it seems.

[LooseWilly]

177. So why did he sell out the American people then? I'm curious to hear your theory.