So when they vote on cloture, all 58 Dems will be wrong and all 40 Rethugs will be right?

[jefferson_dem]

Just trying to get this straight from a "bill killer" perspective.

[Skittles]

1. they're all wrong, but for different reasons

[slipslidingaway]

9. +1 :) n/t

[IndianaGreen]

14. K&R n/t

:kick:

[Capn Sunshine]

29. ...and THAT is the best definition of Congress yet

:Heart: Skittles

[Abq_Sarah]

32. +1

[Truth2Tell]

41. Thank you Skittles.

But the left is the new right.

Any critic of this President or his actions must be Rush Limbaugh.

Did you not get the memo? :shrug:

[Skittles]

43. yeah, I got that memo

and I have been kicking its ass :hi:

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. Sen. Lieberman can still bail on cloture.

...and save us from The Worst Bill Ever.

Don't give up hope.

[AlinPA]

4. Two weeks ago, Lieberman was trashed all over DU. Now he could be their hero?

He didn't want the public option and promised to filibuster it for that reason.

[jefferson_dem]

5. Maybe if Bachmann and her teabagging tools stage another "code red" hatefest...

Who knows?

[Armstead]

3. Siome are wrong, some are doing their best in a shitty situation

[girl gone mad]

6. They make televisions in color now.

Just thought I'd let you know, since you only see in black and white.

[PBS Poll-435]

7. BURN!!!

:rofl:

[fishwax]

27. nice line :)

:rofl:

[LooseWilly]

35. Hehe... laughing... too ... hard... to ...type.

:rofl:

[PBS Poll-435]

40. If the OP only sees in black and white, what good would a color TV do for him/her?

Might be better to get surround sound and a Snuggie.


:shrug:

[eridani]

8. Every single one of them will be wrong

They are all whoring for insurance companies in one way or another.

[mcablue]

10. No. Republicans and progressive bill opponents are not seeking the same result, as you imply

That's a fallacy that bill supporters peddle. They claim that because someone says the bill sucks for not being progressive enough, that person is equal to a right-winger who thinks the bill is not conservative enough and the status quo should be maintained. We think the bill should be killed AND a public option and other reform added. Republicans don't want progressive improvements to the bill.

Remember, we don't want "zero bills". We want the Senate bill killed. Republicans want any Democratic bill killed. We progressives don't.

[jefferson_dem]

11. I appreciate the point but the result is the same.

If this bill dies here (as the Rethugs want), reform dies for good...for a decade or more. Period. Time to pick a side.

[IndianaGreen]

16. The Senate bill is not reform. It is a transfer of wealth from workers to the health industry

Reagan's trickle down was nothing compared to this piece of crap!

[jefferson_dem]

25. So all the Republicans and teabaggers who worship at their RayGun alters every night...

are just too stupid to realize that.

Nevermind. I'm not about to argue against such stupidity.

[Armstead]

26. Yes they are...They are just as bamboozled some Democrats are on this

The plain and simple truth is that this IS a forced transfer of wealth into private hands.

It forces people to buy crappy overpriced private insurance, provides no public alternative plan and -- with the "subsidies" -- it is taking money from tghe treasury (your tax money) and funneling it into the coffers of the insurance companies.

No way to gloss that over.

[BlueMTexpat]

44. I'm with you on passing the bill now. There is some hope for positive

modification in conference.
I also believe that the prospects for ultimate reform are better if we get a bill passed now. The Senate version as it now stands will likely be modified for the better in conference, although even if that happens, the final bill will still not have anywhere near what single-payer would have given us. Sigh. Given how the Repubs are working in lock-step to oppose ANYTHING that the Democrats are trying to do, however, it is very likely if nothing is done now that prospects for Dems remaining the majority party in Congress over the next decade ... and beyond ... are much slimmer, so we will see nothing else happen, certainly not in my lifetime and most likely not in the lifetimes of most DUers.
Those lifetimes may also actually be much shorter if nothing is done now.
Make no mistake about it, killing the bill now is an absolute wet dream for the Republicans. Next year they will use the stasis and impasse created by their non-stop obstructionism as positive things and the corporate media will hype those scripts for them. Both the actions of the Repubs and their corporate media allies throughout this past year have been reprehensible. That will not change. So if Obama's effort to reform health care (his signature issue, btw) even as lukewarm as it has been, fails, the political situation for Democrats going forward will be much more difficult all-round. That IS the bottom line.
So I choose passage.

[Unvanguard]

34. That's not the question, because a better bill is not on the table.

The question is, is this bill worse than nothing, or not? Should we pass this bill, or should we pass nothing? Those are the options.

Practically speaking, if you prefer nothing to this approach to health care reform, then yes, you should support the Republican Senators, if only tactically, and you should cheer them on whenever they find some new procedural means to obstruct the bill.

[Truth2Tell]

42. I do. nt

[depakid]

12. Ironic, isn't it?

Politics surely makes for strange bedfellows at times.

Republicans end up winning for ostensibly losing!

[jefferson_dem]

13. The ultimate three-dimensional chess move.

Best one evah.

[depakid]

21. You forgot the sarcasm tag...

On a more serious note, watch how this "sets up the board" for play on upcoming battles on climate change and financial regulation.

Or food safety. Or (fill in the blank) ____________.

[jefferson_dem]

23. Rest assured...

If the Rethugocracy is able to torpedo Obama's signature initiative - Health Care - they will only be emboldened to slam his policy agenda into submission. Waterloo...

[depakid]

39. They already slam dunked- from the inside

and now that they realize that there's no fight in that dog- you'll see more and more of it on every aspect of the agenda from every two bit extortionist with a K Street benefactor.

Waterloo indeed.

[Egnever]

17. If you think republicans are gonna pull a win from this ....

you are delusional..seriously. Even as good as it isnt. Its still chock full of good and people will feel it and they will remember the pukes just stood in the way and did nothing....
worse than nothing they did everything they could to impede it.

[depakid]

22. I know what's in the bill- what's not and how it'll work over time

Had a McCain administration proposed this- most everyone here would be appalled at its provisions.

But that's understandable, because for most Americans, policy and implementation takes a back seat to sports analogies.

[Egnever]

31. Most people here would have wanted better to be sure

That doesn't mean its bad. Its a hell of an improvement on what we have now for a majority of the people out there. It could be a lot better so we keep working. This being passed is not a bad thing and millions will realize that.

Didn't Frenchi eat your milkshake today when it comes to your predictions anyway? One would think that would make ya want to back off on the predictions for a while. Good to see you getting right back on the horse though ;)

[depakid]

38. Actually, if you'd consider either the direction this bill takes you

or the response to the so called "milkshake" in context of what happened during the election, you might find a clue as to what's in store.

But no- you seem content to cheerlead all the way down the primrose path. Kind of sad, really.

[PBS Poll-435]

15. I Rec'd

Didn't do much good. :(

[Egnever]

18. +1

[LiberalFighter]

19. It would be no different if we were in the minority.

It is better this way in the long run. Otherwise, whenever the Republicans were in power they would take away rights from minorities, poor, middle-class, females, etc.

That is also why the Constitution provides for 3 branches of government. If Congress is stupid enough to pass legislation that is unconstitutional or wrong then the President can veto it. If it still gets past the President then the Supreme Court can rule on it. It don't work like it should but still better than other systems.

I don't care for the outcome either.

If only we could replace Senate leaders with better choices.


Part of the problem is that Obama did not spend much time in the Senate to really understand the workings of the Senate. And Rahm doesn't understand the difference between the House and Senate. Votes are easier to manage in the House because they have more while Senate has a smaller margin.

[WT Fuheck]

20. they are all wrong. there is such a thing as being right for the wrong reasons.

[neverforget]

24. .

[niceypoo]

28. It isnt that hard to understand

Progressives dont like the bill because they believe it is a bad bill. Republicans dont care what is in the bill, they just want Obama to fail.

Not hard to figure out

[Clio the Leo]

30. What blows my mind.....

.... is looks like the GOP would have found a way to enable the far left in all of this. I mean, if they have the same goal. Yet they seem oblivious to all of the drama (aside from putting Dean's comments into the Congressional record.)

[grantcart]

33. projecting from a similar thread you should expect 27 unrecs from

those who consider it mindles for democrats on a board dedicated to supporting democrats to agree to support Democratic Senators when they finally agree to work together on a common cause.

Well if we didn't have members of the "Glorrified Defeat and Martyr Brigade" present then we just couldn't call ourselves Democrats.

[dave29]

36. +1

.

[jeanpalmer]

37. They wil be sending their bagmen

to Big Pharma and the others to collect what they haven't already squeezed out, soon after the vote.