Flash Forward to January 2014: An Ohio Couple Frank and Anne Duggan Open Their Mail

[Yavin4]

Frank and Anne are a working class couple with two children in Steubenville, OH. Frank was laid off 8 mos ago from the steel mill because of cheap imports from China. Now, he works three part time jobs to support the family. None of his jobs offer health insurance as a benefit. His wife, Anne, is going to school at night. She was a public school teacher, but she was laid off because of budget cuts. She's studying to become a nurse, but the couple may not have enough money to see her finish. They have two daughters, but one of her children has a chronic illness, which isn't life threatening but it does require treatment. The family has no health insurance.

On the third day of January 2014, they get a huge packet in the mail informing them that they have to buy health insurance. They pour through the documents and learn that they have to come up with $4,500.00 a year, or $375.00 a month, to cover their family. This is money that they do not have, and their anger at their government, which threatens to fine them, grows intensely. Specifically, they are angry at Democrats who created this situation. They're not political, but they will take their rage out on any Democrat running for office.

Jump ahead to Fall 20016. The Democratic party takes a electoral beating in Ohio, and hundreds of posts go up on DU wondering why do people in Steubenville, OH vote against their economic interests?

[donco6]

1. He could quit his jobs and then he'd get Medicaid! Right?!

Or so someone on here said the other day.

This scenario, repeated thousands of times . . . does anyone really wonder what the outcome will be?

[treestar]

2. How is this child getting treated now?

You also don't give us their income, so that we could know what the premium and subsidy would be.

[Yavin4]

4. The Child Is Not Getting Treatment

Her illness, though chronic, can be treated by other means. Ideally, they'd love to have her treated by a doctor, but they don't have access.

[CreekDog]

6. ah, well the current situation is so much better

:eyes: :banghead:

i can't believe what i read here. kid and family have no medical care now and later when they get it for $375/month and their kid gets his chronic condition treated by a medical professional --somehow they will be angry at the Democrats for that.

i have severe doubts that a parent has written the OP.

[Yavin4]

9. What The Family Needs Is AFFORDABLE Health Insurance

This bill does not give it to them. This bill is forcing them to come up with $375 a month that they do not have, and they will be red-hot angry at the Democrats for doing this to them.

[CreekDog]

10. sure they need it and now they probably have no resources to pay for a costlier policy

i would prefer it to be free and funded from our taxes (even if they need to be raised to do so).

but given the situation now, do i prefer the present system and options to what's proposed in the bill --no way! :wtf:

the bill improves things and things need improvement badly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. And if they don't have $375 a month???

[gmoney]

27. Homeland Security just bought 200 million bullets...

[CreekDog]

28. i honestly don't know

you guys that want revenge on those of us who support passage of this bill --you have your revenge.

the revenge is being asked to defend the indefensible in this bill and there are those things.

and that said, the current situation is indefensible and i can't support waiting even another day to change it.

so you win, okay? :shrug:

[stevenleser]

29. Throwing out the $375 without income and other figures doesnt mean anything.

I'd be happy to discuss this with you if you came up with their income and we can look at the chart and figure out what they truly would be paying. Once you do that, most people's monthly premiums seem reasonable.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Another poster made that $375 claim

Not me.

[onenote]

3. could you provide links to specific provisions and also provide additional facts

for example, exactly what is their income? are they entitled to a subsidy? what is the basis for the amount that you cite as their cost? how do the state exchanges fit into this?

[Yavin4]

5. The $4500 Amount Is Based on the Chart That Nate Silver Made

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/why-progressives-are-batshit-crazy-to.html

My estimation of $4500 is reasonable according to the Nate Silver chart.

Finally, you miss the entire point of the post, which is that the government will MANDATE that a family like this HAS to buy private insurance, which is going to turn families like this one against the Democratic party en masse.

All that they will know is that they will have to come up with an additional $375.00 a month which they do not have. subsidies or no subsidies. Every Dem pol for office will have to explain to these people that they got a great deal.

Good luck with that.

[Jersey Devil]

7. Not possible unless they make about $55,000 per year

$375 per month = $4,500 per year, and according to the following chart that would be approximately $55,000 in annual income for them to pay that much. So are you saying this guy would make $55K per year with 3 part time jobs while his wife is in school? And if she is a teacher, why is she going to school for another 4 years to become a nurse? Are people entitled to really cheap health care so they can pursue second college careers?



edited to give proper credit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7291846

[Yavin4]

11. According To Your Chart, Premium AND Out of Pocket Come Out To $6,166 A Year

In fact, your chart shows that the family would actually pay $513.33 a month, far more than the $375/mo that I came up with.

[Jersey Devil]

13. The out of pocket is "maximum"

In the given scenario the child needs medical attention but it is not life threatening. I would think the maximum would probably only apply for things like cancer treatment, open heart surgery, etc.

Look, HCR is about making health care more affordable and the subsidies do just that. It is not about making it free so that people can go back to college to switch careers.

[Milo_Bloom]

12. Like a family of 4 making 36,275 can afford 6166???

That is what makes me laugh and cry in these charts.

It presumes that even the numbers on the right are affordable.


"I'll sell you this car for $10,000"

"sorry, I don't have any money"

"Okay, I'm gonna make it $5,000 and now you have to buy it"

"but I still don't have any money"

"PAY THE FINE!!!"

[gravity]

14. Most families would pay around $2000

It is only if you have a very serious medical condition that the out of pocket expenses are going to get to over $4000.

[Milo_Bloom]

16. Are you joking?

Let's forget the fact that $2000 might be a stretch on 34K a year for a family of 4... let's assume the money fairy gives them that.


So, the defense of this bill is... It's very affordable as long as you don't have to actually USE THE COVERAGE YOU ARE FORCED TO BUY?

That the new story?

[gravity]

17. It is doable

I am not going to act like it is going to be easy for the family, but it is better than the alternative and the family will be having health insurance in case something goes wrong. What does the family do without health insurance when they are sick?

And if these costs do become a major problem for some people, Congress can go fix it later when it becomes evident. It would be much easier to fix something once you have the framework implemented. Congress will just vote on increasing the subsidies and everyone will be happy.

[Milo_Bloom]

18. What if the framework is fundamentally flawed?

As is the case here.

How do you fix something that is broken to its core?

[gravity]

19. There are many things that could be done to fix the problem with the current frame work

They could even decide to add a public option into the healthcare exchange later on. They could increase the subsidies even more or increase the limits to out of pocket costs. They can add more regulations to the health insurance industry.

[Yavin4]

15. This Point Is Flying Past Some People

Folks cannot afford private health insurance, and this bill MANDATES that they do.

And then, they're going to wonder why working class people won't support Democrats.

[stevenleser]

23. The facts are flying past you on what people would really have to pay. Using out of pocket maximum

as part of monthly costs is deliberately deceptive. Here is a hint. If your doctor visit copay is $20. How many visits would it take to reach the out of pocket maximum? Well, if your Out of Pocket Maximum is $6000, that would mean 300 visits. I.e., a member of your family would have to go to the doctor nearly everyday.

Take an operation. Lets say your copay on an operation is $50. A member of your family would need to have an operation every third day to get to the out of pocket maximum. Lets combine the two. If one of your family has a doctors visit each of 10 days each month, and has an operation each of five days each month, you get to $6000.

I hope everyone can see how ridiculous of a scenario this is.

[stevenleser]

21. Almost no one ever gets near the out of pocket maximum on health insurance policies

Let me know if you really dont understand why

[Milo_Bloom]

33. The minimum is too much at that income level.

Let me know if you really don't understand why.

[stevenleser]

37. What income level are we talking about. n/t

[Milo_Bloom]

40. Read the post you replied to. n/t

[jaxx]

8. 163.83 a month for a family of 4

according to the chart in the thread above and if they are in the bottom of the over the poverty limit.

Why aren't people thinking the subsidies are a good thing?

[stevenleser]

24. Because they have an agenda and are being deceptive re: monthly costs

See my above posts about Out of Pocket Maximums.

[moondust]

25. Subsidies

aren't so bad if they are going to pay actual medical bills as would be the case in a single payer or public option system that operates roughly at cost.

On the other hand, subsidies to buy private insurance amount to endless corporate welfare/bailouts as taxpayers foot the bill for private operating expenses and overhead such as advertising, excessive salaries and bonuses, irresponsible risk taking in the pursuit of profits, etc.

[stevenleser]

26. Getting the care for people loses out to your desire to punish insurance companies. Gotcha n/t

[moondust]

32. Fail.

It's not about punishing anybody at all. It's about the CODB and making enough profits to satisfy the greedest and most ruthless among us.

When did you become a shill for the insurance industry?

[Orangepeel]

39. if there are nonprofits in the exchange and 85% of for profit co's revenues go toward medical care

that doesn't sound so bad to me.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

20. December 2009

The Frank and Anne filed for bankruptcy last month because they have no medical insurance and more than $100,000 in medical bills that they cannot possibly pay. Their daughter died of her illness last week because the family has no money for the medication she needed. And the cost of their medical care? Those costs were "absorbed" by the health care system, which means that they were passed along to people who have medical insurance.

[hayu_lol]

30. Terms are wrong...

This family and other families like them need:

Affordable HEALTHCARE, not

Affordable Medical Insurance.

[stevenleser]

31. And with that, you just defeated your own argument, because it is no longer about getting care for

people, it is about satisfying your agenda to attack the Health Insurance companies.

[Yuugal]

34. What about my kids?

Right now they pay 0 for SCHIP. No premium, no deductible, no co-pay. How does your chart help them? Looks to me like they get to watch their dad pay out the ass for something I'll never have the cash to use because of co-pays and deductibles. The house bill kills SCHIP in 2014 and so does the senate bill. Are you trying to tell us all the people like me are going to rush out and vote dem in thanks for screwing us over?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

38. Are you really that thick?

You don't get the difference between access to healthcare and affordable health insurance? Seriously?

You're displaying a basic ignorance about this subject that is as comical as it is bewildering. People like you actually vote?

[Honeycombe8]

35. They may or may not get a subsidy. Devil's in the details. But that still means they have to come

up with the remainder of the premium.

And then there's exchange thing. It is not an option. From what I understand, it's just a listing of the ins. companies and the policies they sell. So I don't know how helpful that would be to someone without money.

I agree with your scenario. It depends on how many people fit into this scenario as to whether it will affect the Democratic Party's future.

Personally, I think Congress will be Republican-controlled before then, and some of these "reform" provisions will be repealed.