Really, let's all take a breath and imagine what would be going on to Obama if this bill failed...

[HardWorkingDem]

Yes, we can all agree that everything every one wants is not in this bill. But really, imagine what would be going on right now if the Senate had not voted to invoke cloture. Imagine how the mainstream media and blood thirsty right wing assholes would be tearing this man and his administration apart.

Right now, we are already hearing how Obama is not the leader America thought he would be (and Jesus, how fucking unfair is that? White and corporate America is disappointed in a black man that can't solve all our problems in an instant and with the snap of a finger). This man and his family have such high expectations thrust upon them and here we are biting him and taking him down with a thousand cuts.

People, can we take a breather here and start looking at all of this with some rationality? Let's look at what we are expecting of this one man - should we really feel comfortable in expecting this one man to reverse so much of American history developed over four hundred years in just one year?

[DJ13]

1. I'll show my concern by going broke buying mandated insurance

Obama, well he'll come out of this okay no matter what.

[NanceGreggs]

2. You might want to read this ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7293738

[DJ13]

3. You might want to read my response in #4

[Ozymanithrax]

7. Mandated insurance isn't.

Read the Thread from Thickasabrick.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7293738

(2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law—
‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.— In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section,such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
‘‘(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary shall not—
‘‘(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section, or
‘‘(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure.

There are no penalties and none can be forced upon you. It is time to put the whole mandate argument bheind us.

[DJ13]

8. You were proven wrong in your original post

The penalty still exists.

[Ozymanithrax]

13. Read the original post.

I am correct.

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. Let's take a close look at this...

Read the Thread from Thickasabrick.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

(2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law—
‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.— In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section (I think this establishes the fact that a penalty IS imposed), such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure (The purpose here is to limit any penalty to that which was originally imposed).
‘‘(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary shall not—
‘‘(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section, or
‘‘(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure.

There are no penalties and none can be forced upon you. It is time to put the whole mandate argument bheind us.
------------
Mandate. There is one. Penalties. There are some.

[Aramchek]

9. poor you

I guess someone else should pay for your medical care.

[treestar]

11. give it a rest

you will not go broke. The point is to keep you from going broke over medical bills.

[DJ13]

16. You dont know others economic situations

You give it a rest.

[treestar]

19. Every conceivable economic situation is covered by the plan

You plug your numbers in.

[Skittles]

4. I will take that as a plus

but as far as exepectations - we'd be more patient with what we expect in the long haul if we felt he was going in a plausible direction

[angee_is_mad]

5. You are making to much sense

in the crazyhouse.

[jgraz]

6. Let's all imagine what would be going on if Obama had actually led on this bill

Win or lose, he'd have an army of dedicated followers ready to vote the obstructionists out in 2010. Myself included.

[treestar]

12. You actually envision a world in which Lieberdork votes on cloture for a

bill with a public option?

Nice dream world.

[jgraz]

14. No, I envision an even crazier world: one where Obama actually proposes real reform

and then leads on the issue.

Crazy, huh?

[treestar]

18. So how does he get Lieberman to vote for cloture for it?

you have not answered that question. With the present Senate, that is necessary.

since you know how to handle Lieberman better, please inform us of what you would have done.

[jgraz]

20. If you still believe the Lieberman bullshit, you'll believe anything.

At the very least, the public option could have been pushed through in Reconciliation. Lieberman was a convenient scapegoat for Obama's failure.

[jtrockville]

15. His leadership could have made a huge difference.

As did his lack thereof.

[treestar]

10. thank you!

rec'd

[jillan]

17. The repugs would be eating him alive saying things like he couldn't even get this passed with a

majority in both houses.

It's just too bad that this bill had to get watered down so much with large majorities in both houses :(

[JVS]

21. That's Obama's problem. We shouldn't have to pretend we're impressed by his shitty poker playing

[GreenArrow]

23. Frankly, this bill deserves to fail.

Maybe if Obama had chosen to actually stand for something other than simply passing "a" bill...As it is, he and his corporate lackeys have made their own bed.

[glitch]

24. Well, without a pro-corporate HCR to distract us we'd be focusing on escalation in Afghanistan

and an illegal expansion into Pakistan?

Let's take a rational breather and take a look at 100,000+ troops + mercenaries in theater within one year.

[flamingdem]

25. Obama is a smart leader nt

[Laelth]

26. The states, individually, would start enacting single-payer systems in a few years.

The status quo is better because it will ALLOW for states to address this issue themselves. Passing the bill will prevent state action on this issue. California will probably pass single payer on its own in 2011. All they need is a Democratic Governor. The legislature has already passed the bill. Schwarzenegger vetoed it. Once California has single-payer, most (if not all) states will follow suit.

It's likely that if we pass a new law now, the new law will preempt single-payer, i.e. the Federal law will preempt state law and prevent states from enacting a single-payer system.

THIS is what the health insurance companies fear. THIS is what brought them to the bargaining table. THIS is why they are not fighting Obama's tepid reforms, and THIS is why it is extremely important that we do not pass any health insurance reform bill this year.

Let's not settle for a bail-out of the health insurance industry. Let's insist on the eradication of it. In all likelihood, California will lead the way in 2011 ... if we can just give them time.

Canada got its single-payer system one province at a time, and it looks like that's the only way it can happen in the United States.

I don't think the Federal Government is capable of reforming the system right now. If this bill is the best the Federal Government can do, then the Federal Government should do nothing. It's time to let the states try.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Umbral]

27. OK, think of all the stuff he could have accomplished with a Democratically controlled congress

As bad as they are now, the Republicans will be much worse after midterms. It won't take a large shift in numbers either. One in the Senate, a few in the House and Obama will be forced to bend to their will to pass anything...

...On second though, considering how duplicitous (or ineffectual) he's been regarding heath care legislation - I'm not sure the Republicans will be much of an impediment to his real agenda.

[HardWorkingDem]

28. Let me be clear here....

My mother had to get rid of all of her assets so she could receive help in her treatment for leukemia. For years she was a hospice nurse and when she finally started making money, she had to leave her career on disability. At one point she was told she had too many assets to receive expensive treatments for her disease.


I bring this up because so many here act as if they are the only ones who have felt pain.


We need to wake up, look reality in the eye and realize, 400 hundred year of American history can't be eradicated with the election of one black man.

[bvar22]

30. THAT is the rebuttal to those who say...

..."Well, then "the poor people" will just get Medicaid.

You can't "just get Medicaid". You must first SELL every fucking thing you own.
Many "low income" people still own their house. (I am one).

[bvar22]

29. Whay would happen to Obama if the bill failed?

Well, the Health Insurance Cartel would be pissed that they didn't get their Trillion Dollars as promised.