FACT NOT IN DISPUTE: Obama's TRUE base doesn't blame him for the short comings of a few senators

[uponit7771]

jus sayin, might as well keep it as real as possible no?

TIA

[carolinayellowdog]

1. "TRUE base" is a value judgment and not a fact at all

and if you define the true base as those who don't blame him, then your statement is a tautology, not an empirical observation.

[baldguy]

2. The value of the Bully Pulpit is that it can be used to sway public opinion

and therefor Congressional support.

I didn't see much of Barack stumping for HCR with a public option.

[uponit7771]

3. The nation could be 99.9999% for PubOption and NOTHING by law can make the senators vote

...for it.

Especially senators who's seats aren't up for election...

NOTHING

[Zodiak]

4. "no true Scotsman" fallacy

Keeping it real means not starting out with a logical fallacy.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

5. Obama's TRUE base = Obama

[BeyondGeography]

6. Plus 86% of liberal Democrats

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=84646&mesg_id=84646

[NJmaverick]

7. No his base is strong. Those that wanted a puppet on the other hand

are angry at their inability to control and manipulate him.

[ima_sinnic]

25. funny how you blithely accept whatever he does, no matter how contrary to expectations

or did you have no expectations whatsoever?

maybe that is how I should vote from now on. which candidate can I expect the least from?

[freddie mertz]

8. What is your opinion of the president's lie about the PO?

How can we trust him after this?

Asking seriously.

[polpilot]

9. It's painfully obvious there's no evidence of a principled leader with a true

agenda or passion for change or (#2) even the slighest understanding of the importance of the issue. I really don't know now why Obama even wanted to be the president. Certainly not to expand the U.S.'s ME war making role? or to fight for healthcare.

[uponit7771]

10. More hate, it's not even out of conference yet and t he PO can be inacted via reconcilation

...this is what I mean, fact less hatred

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

11. delusion =/= fact

[freddie mertz]

12. Have you even SEEN this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7300576

He's denying he ever HEARD of anything called the public option!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. So which is it? That he didn't push for the public option or that he did?

You don't fucking get it both ways.

Furthermore, only one of those citations is from the CAMPAIGN. The rest are 2009 quotes. And he didn't promise a public option in that quote. Nice try.

[freddie mertz]

14. Are you so blind that you refuse to read?

He's trying to excuse his recent behavior by denying he was ever really FOR the damned thing.

[BeyondGeography]

18. This is so cute, really

If you ever really listened to Obama, he never draws lines in the sand, he always leaves the door open for competing ideas and, yes, legislative and political wiggle room. There are many reasons why he does this, mostly having to do with appearing as a non-threatening adult who will govern responsibly and enabling legislators and President alike to get through the lawmaking process with a minimum of political theater and sideshows and to emerge with some dignity. This is how he has always operated from the time he was a community organizer, and your non-stop fist-pounding on this one narrow point proves over and over that you weren't paying attention and you never understood the man in the first place.

[freddie mertz]

20. Depends what the meaning of "must" is, eh?

On one thing I have to agree, however.

I never really understood the man, because I assumed he was telling the truth most of the time.

It is becoming clearer now.

[niceypoo]

31. 'he never draws a line in the sand'

What your saying is that he never takes a solid stance on anything, just drifts with the legislative winds. Hard to tell if you are pro or against him.

[uponit7771]

36. Yeah!! you're either again us or wit us dammitt!!

[BeyondGeography]

37. ...on the details

And ask Bill Clinton where drawing a line on UHC in 1993 got him ultimately.

[niceypoo]

47. I cant believe that Obama is so shallow

...as to base his stance on 'do the opposite of what Hillary and Bill did.'

Look at what LBJ did in 1965. He twisted arms behind the scenes. He personally maneuvered the Mills bill all the way through and got it passed in six months.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

17. The lie about PO?

I'm still trying to figure out where the lie comes in. In the campaign he proposed a hybrid of subsidized private insurance and a Medicare Buy-In. As work dragged on with the legislation, Obama conceded that the absence of a Buy-In would not be a deal breaker for him if it could get some kind of substantive reform out of Congress.

You may disagree with him, but clearly Obama believes that what the Senate passed has sufficient substance to warrant his dropping an insistence on a Buy-In. He's accepting the best deal he can get under the circumstances rather than have no deal at all. He never threatened (or even hinted at) a veto of any legislation without a Public Option.

[freddie mertz]

21. I think he is being dishonest.

He said "must."

Main Entry: 1must
Pronunciation: \məs(t), ˈməst\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): present & past all persons must
Etymology: Middle English moste, from Old English mōste, past indicative & subjunctive of mōtan to be allowed to, have to; akin to Old High German muozan to be allowed to, have to
Date: before 12th century
verbal auxiliary
1 a : be commanded or requested to <you must stop> b : be urged to : ought by all means to <you must read that book>
2 : be compelled by physical necessity to <one must eat to live> : be required by immediate or future need or purpose to <we must hurry to catch the bus>
3 a : be obliged to : be compelled by social considerations to <I must say you're looking well> b : be required by law, custom, or moral conscience to <we must obey the rules> c : be determined to <if you must go at least wait for me> d : be unreasonably or perversely compelled to <why must you argue>
4 : be logically inferred or supposed to <it must be time>
5 : be compelled by fate or by natural law to <what must be will be>
6 : was or were presumably certain to : was or were bound to <if he did it she must have known>
7 dialect : may, shall —used chiefly in questions
intransitive verb
archaic : to be obliged to go <I must to Coventry — Shakespeare>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Must

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

22. In what way?

I'll agree that Obama made a foolish statement -- one that he now has to publicly withdraw. Maybe at the time, he was CERTAIN that he would get a bill with a Public Option in it. Maybe he was counting his chickens a little too soon. But I don't think he was lying when he said it.

The reality is that THIS is the bill he was given by the Senate and that THIS is likely as good as its going to get. So does he veto legislation that will provide at least partial relief in hopes that maybe next year -- or the year after that or maybe never -- Congress will give him something better?

He's got to hold his nose and sign this.

[mkultra]

23. they want him to veto it because they want no reform

their purpose is to stop any healthcare reform from occurring. The do it by pretending that only the best is good enough but they are really just paid disruptors like the town hall health care fanatics. Its the health industry in full spin.

[freddie mertz]

24. I don't think he did much of anything to fight for it.

On that point, a wide variety of witnesses and commentators agree.

From the evidence available, I have been forced to conclude that he has been passive at best, dishonest at worst (depending on the day, it seems).

Whether he is lying consciously or not is almost beside the point.

We just can't take him at his word anymore.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

26. It's easy to be frustrated by his lack of engagement...

But remember that Obama -- even if he were still in the Senate -- would be considered a junior member. Now that's he's President, he has less clout than he did before.

[freddie mertz]

27. Are you joking? He is the president, elected with a solid majority.

And Biden is his VP, a senior member.

Honestly.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

29. Not a solid majority.

58 Democrats + 1 Liberal Independent. Not enough to stop a filibuster.

Now ten of these Senate Democrats are from states that didn't vote for Obama in 2008 and only one of them is up for re-election next year. So the other nine represent Red States and won't have to answer to voters for at least another three years.

The progressive wing of the Democratic Senate Caucus doesn't can just barely scrape together a majority, and only then with lots of political favors being handed out to make it happen.

[freddie mertz]

32. If he cannot or will not do the job, he should resign.

And give Joe a chance, or call a special election.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

33. Are you fucking kidding me?

Seriously? You think that any time a President doesn't get the legislation he wants from the Congress, he should just resign? Seriously? Who in the hell do you think he is, Sarah Palin? Do you think Bill Clinton should have just resigned in 1993?

Of all the stupifyingly dense statements I've seen on this board during the past month, yours just made the Top Ten List.

And just what, pray tell, is the constitutional basis for a Special Election?

[freddie mertz]

34. I am responding to YOUR claim that he is not up to the job.

It's a rhetorical point.

I keep reading about what Obama CAN"T do.

It's mostly lame excuses.

Now he is responding by trying to rewrite his own history, "well, I never REALLY promised..." but of course, we have "the google," and the words and videos are all out there.

Time to hold the man accountable for his own words and his own actions.

No excuses. Accountability. This is still a republic, not a dictatorship.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

38. I made no such claim and you know it

It's not a rhetorical point, it's flipping ignorant point.

If you bother to look back through the 2008 campaign, Obama consistently promoted a mixed plan of subsidies for private insurance and a Medicare Buy-In. He never promised a single-payer system or any other exclusively government-run program.

And regardless of what he promised and what he said, he can only sign or veto whatever Congress sends to him.

You're right. This country not a dictatorship, which is why Obama is going to sign a piece of legislation that he doesn't really like. If he were a dictator, he wouldn't to worry about the legislative process, now would he?

[freddie mertz]

41. To listen to him talk, he LOVES the plan in the Senate.

Meanwhile, we have all the videos and transcripts and web shots that show what Obama promised and when he promised it.

And the fact remains, through all the fog of excuses and the president's own public effort to revise this history, that he has failed. Not only to deliver, but by all accounts, to even TRY to deliver on a key (and vastly popular) element in his plan.

If he had fought harder, you would not be forced to assume all these contorted poses in a futile attempt to defend the man against his own record.

It's tragic, really.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

42. You've never actually taken a Civics Class, have you...

But that's beside the point right now...

Let me first of all ask you to post a link to the President saying that he "loves" this bill. He's said that it gives him most of what he wanted, while acknowledging that it doesn't have a Public Option.

And what do you think he's going to say in a press conference: "That f'in SHILL Harry Reid didn't deliver what I wanted, and I'd like to rip his f'in lungs out for this!!" If he does that, what do you suppose the odds are of his getting more legislation through next year to improve this bill?

He asked for something from Congress and didn't get it. He's hardly the first (or the last) President to have this experience.

[freddie mertz]

43. Yes, I have taken civics. And it's not my fault Obama failed and then lied about it.

And I am not the one defending him, you are.

With excuses that conveniently smooth over some basic facts.

Among these is his apparent failure to exert constructive pressure in the HCR process.

All the evidence suggests he passively gave up the fight a long time ago.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

46. You've become officially tedious

"And I am not the one defending him, you are."

Uh...thanks for clearing that up?

"With excuses that convinently smooth over some basic facts"

Those are also known as explanations that fill in the gaps with regard to your lack of knowledge.

"Among these is his apparent failure to exert constructive pressure in the HCR process"

Based on what metric? A doctor can "exert constructive pressure" all the time but the patient still dies. Unless you're willing to scrap the Constitution and invest Obama with dictatorial powers, there are practical limits to his ability to "exert constructive pressure."

"All the evidence suggests he passively gave up the fight a long time ago"

Other than hauling the Democratic leadership into the White House on more than one occasion and taking the extraordinary step of going to the Capitol to meet personally with the Democratic Caucus.

[freddie mertz]

48. He didn't mention the PO at the Senate meeting, as was widely reported.

If we can't agree on basic facts, it gets hard to have a constructive discussion.

[Orsino]

55. I'm grateful that at one point, he was willing to double-down for a public option...

...and that he was not foolish enough to keep risking his reputation by demanding what Congress was never going to pass.

[ipaint]

35. Here is where the lie comes in, all links during campaign.

Covering All Americans and Providing Real Choices of Affordable Health Insurance Options.

Families and individuals should have the option of keeping the coverage they have or choosing from a wide array of health insurance plans, including many private health insurance options and a public plan. Coverage should be made affordable for all Americans with subsidies provided through tax credits and other means.

http://www.democrats.org/a/party/platform.html


In the 2008 Obama-Biden health care plan on the campaign’s website, candidate Obama promised that “any American will have the opportunity to enroll in new public plan.”

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf


Every American has the right to affordable, comprehensive and portable health coverage. My plan will ensure that all Americans have health care coverage through their employers, private health plans, the federal government, or the states. My plan builds on and improves our current insurance system, which most Americans continue to rely upon, and creates a new public health plan for those currently without coverage. Under my plan, Americans will be able to choose to maintain their current coverage if they choose to. For those without health insurance I will establish a new public insurance program, and provide subsides to afford care for those who need them. My plan includes a mandate that all children have health care coverage and I will expand eligibility for the Medicaid and SCHIP programs to help ensure we cover all kids. My plan requires all employers to contribute towards health coverage for their employees or towards the cost of the public plan. Under my plan a typical family will save $2,500 each year. We will realize tremendous savings Covering All Americans and Providing Real Choices of Affordable Health Insurance Options.

Families and individuals should have the option of keeping the coverage they have or choosing from a wide array of health insurance plans, including many private health insurance options and a public plan. Coverage should be made affordable for all Americans with subsidies provided through tax credits and other means.

http://www.democrats.org/a/party/platform.html


In the 2008 Obama-Biden health care plan on the campaign’s website, candidate Obama promised that “any American will have the opportunity to enroll in new public plan.”

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf


Every American has the right to affordable, comprehensive and portable health coverage. My plan will ensure that all Americans have health care coverage through their employers, private health plans, the federal government, or the states. My plan builds on and improves our current insurance system, which most Americans continue to rely upon, and creates a new public health plan for those currently without coverage. Under my plan, Americans will be able to choose to maintain their current coverage if they choose to. For those without health insurance I will establish a new public insurance program, and provide subsides to afford care for those who need them. My plan includes a mandate that all children have health care coverage and I will expand eligibility for the Medicaid and SCHIP programs to help ensure we cover all kids. My plan requires all employers to contribute towards health coverage for their employees or towards the cost of the public plan. Under my plan a typical family will save $2,500 each year. We will realize tremendous savings within the health care system from improving efficiency and quality and reducing wasted expenditures system-wide. Specifically, these savings will result from investments in health information technology, improvements in prevention and management of chronic conditions, increased insurance industry competition and reduced industry overhead, the provision of federal reinsurance for catastrophic coverage, and reduced spending on uncompensated care.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/issues/candidates/barack-obama/

NPR interview 2007-

Obama: Senator Clinton’s plan for healthcare, my plan, John Edward’s plan are all similar in the sense that we set up a government plan alongside the private plans that people have. And people can buy in. And we all subsidize participation in that plan.

Laura Knoy: So it’s not universal, single payer healthcare such as Dennis Kucinich<'s plan>?

Obama: Exactly. It’s not single payer, it’s a transitional system building on the existing systems that we have.

cont.-

Require all children to have health insurance, and employers to offer employee health benefits or contribute to the cost of the new public program. Expand Medicaid and SCHIP and create the National Health Insurance Exchange through which small businesses and individuals without access to other public programs or employer-based coverage could enroll in a new public plan, like Medicare, or in a range of approved private plans.

http://www.verumserum.com/?p=8554

This side-by-side comparison of the candidates' positions on health care was prepared by the Kaiser Family Foundation with the assistance of Health Policy Alternatives, Inc. and is based on information appearing on the candidates' websites as supplemented by information from candidate speeches, the campaign debates and news reports. The sources of information are identified for each candidate's summary (with links to the Internet). The comparison highlights information on the candidates' positions related to access to health care coverage, cost containment, improving the quality of care and financing. Information will be updated regularly as the campaign unfolds.

snip-
Barack Obama-

Create a new public plan so that small businesses and individuals without access to other public programs or employer-based coverage could purchase insurance. Plan coverage would offer comprehensive benefits similar to those available through FEHBP.

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=5&c=16


May 2007-

Mr. Obama would create a new public plan open to individuals who cannot get group coverage through work or the existing government programs, like Medicaid or the State Childrens Health Insurance Program. He would also create a National Health Insurance Exchange, a regulated marketplace of competing private health plans that would aim at “reforming” the private insurance market and giving individuals other, more affordable options for coverage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/29/us/politics/29CND-OBAMA.html?_r=2



More here:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/22/818090/-President-Obama:-I-Didnt-Campaign-on-the-Public-Option.-

[freddie mertz]

44. Thank you. Sometimes I fell I am engaged in a discourse with people who refuse to see.

It's frustrating when we can't even agree on the basic facts before us.

[Egnever]

51. Well cool links but i dont see a lie in them

Unless of course you are trying to say the plan we are getting from congress is the one Obama presented to them.

[Tailormyst]

15. If by true base you mean those who follow him mindlessly, then I agree.

You wouldn't blame him for anything, even if he sacrificed a kitten on the steps of the white house, you would buy the line they give you, about it being necessary and then would go on your merry way spewing Rahmisms.

Before you scream what a victim you are, and how folks are insulting you, please realize that you started it.

[Dr.Phool]

19. He didn't campaign on not sacrificing kittens!

So there!

Nyah.

[KansasVoter]

39. +1000

[Donnachaidh]

16. whoa -- *true base*? This sounds like freeper speak

So basically anyone who disaqrees with Obama is an enemy, right?

Jeez -- talk about orchestrated hate against dissent. Some of you really took some grand lessons from Karl Rove and his minions.

[uponit7771]

45. K, what about logical people who don't blame Obama for what Lieberman and Nelson have done? TIA

[tekisui]

28. You posted no facts in your OP.

[KansasVoter]

30. -1, LOL...True Base, like you can decide who is and who is not! Dumbass!

[backscatter712]

40. He's a politician, and his tactics backfired.

I don't think that makes Barack Obama a bad person or that he's instantly become a bad president.

But he did screw up.

He played the "Let Congress fight over it and I'll stay above the fray" card, and it backfired. He thought that this would keep the political toxicity of the health care fight quarantined in Congress, but it ended up all over him too.

That's why everybody's yelling at him, saying "Why didn't you fight for the public option?" That's why he's stuck saying things like "I didn't campaign for the public option." to try to salvage political points.

Like I said, he fucked up, but I don't think that makes him a bad President or a bad person - health care reform has always been an insanely difficult fight in Washington, and lots of other presidents have tried health care reform, failed, and ended up taking a political beating. Obama did a lot better than Clinton in that he's gonna got a bill with some moderate reforms across his desk.

Hopefully he learns some lessons and tries some better tactics next time.

[LastNaturalist]

49. Amen! Of course his true base should also be paying as much attention...

as the teabaggers. I realize the middle class has 10,000 things they juggle at once, but we need to pay attention too.

[shotten99]

50. Damned straight.

People are fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

[Phx_Dem]

52. Clearly true. Otherwise, he wouldn't have an 86% approval rating among Dems.

[Zenlitened]

53. EPIC FLAIL

[Enrique]

54. what's his true base?

his golfing buddies?