Reframing -- "Kill the bill" is not it..... It is "Don't Kill Real Reform Prematurely."

[Armstead]

Why end the game in a rush to meet an artificial deadline?

>>>>>As for the short-term immediate needs, people could be provided with the help now without the corporate giveaways that will prevent future structural improvements.

This bill in its present form contains poison pills that will kill the ability to implement real reform. Congress is not going to have the will (and the legislative power) to go back and "fix" this bill once it is enshrined into law.

No public option, Medicare expansion, etc, is going to be successfully introduced for years once this is done. Even if some in Congress decide to try, Lord only knows what the make up of Congress and the White House will be at that mythical point.

On the other hand, if the current bill included some form of public option or medicare buy in -- even if it is modest -- at least there would be a foot in the door, which WOULD make it easier to build on.

[Liberation Angel]

1. But we now have the conference to make changes ...so

we should forget killing the bill for now and work on the changes we want and what can be accomplished.

We will not know what the final bill is until the House and Senate work out their compromises.

I basically agree that some of the stuff in the bills is not great, but I do not see killing it as a step forward and NOW is the opportunity to get as much as we can as the House weighs in...

The problem as I see it if the reform effort is killed entirely then we get NO reform and no bill and no change.

Even if we could go back and fix the patient it may already be dead and unrevivable.

[Armstead]

3. If they can -- and are willing -- fix it in conference that is the best solution

As I said in my original post, it is not "kill tghe bill" but "Don't kill reform"

[Liberation Angel]

7. I modifed my post a little but

I get it...
I think we all need to take a deep breath and realize that if we can make the best of it: REWARD the effort for reform then MAYBE we can get more of it.

All this screaming that all the dems and Krugman and even Dean are sellouts (very Naderish and agent-provocateurish imho) will influence young dems and the progressives who really don't understand the process to bail on the reform and political efforts.

I think we NEED these folks to keep pressure on to make MORE reform possible and to FIX things down the road. If we lose our majority and our 58-60 votes next time around we are gonna get reamed.

We can't do the circular firing squad thing which progressives always end up doing with a little prompting from the fringe rightists

[TwilightGardener]

2. And the 59th and 60th Senate vote for a public option would be...

(...and we're right back to where we began).

[depakid]

5. R-E-C-O-N-C-I-L-I-A-T-I-O-N 50+1

[TwilightGardener]

6. Anyone see any signs that such an event will happen?

[depakid]

8. Not from the administration- which hasn't pushed for it

It's perfectly legal and compelling under the circumstances (especially considering the impressive attention the versions of the bills have been getting from the CBO re: the effect on- and reduction of the budget deficit).

If the shoe were on the other foot- do you doubt for a moment that Republicans wouldn't have used it (as they have many times before) and that we'd have seen responsible legislation months ago?

[TwilightGardener]

9. I'd be all for it, but for whatever reason, the WH and the Senate

don't want to do it this way (at least the PO/MC buy-in). I don't get it, because it seems Democrats want to own a crappy bill at 60 votes, rather than a better bill at 51 votes--but since neither bill would be bipartisan, the Democratic party is going to earn the full credit/blame no matter what. You'd think they'd want to own the very best legislation they can get.

[depakid]

10. It's been something of a mystery to me for several months now

and apparently Howard Dean, as well.

One would think that if some Senators were the cause, both the House and the administration would want to lay the onus at their feet'

:shrug:

Would at least have gone a long way toward assuaging the progressive base and focusing the acrimony on the individuals responsible.

[depakid]

4. No doubt in my mind that the rush in the endgame is due to lobbyist's hoping

they can get their sweetheart deals through before most people and organizations catch on and muster compelling and persuasive counter arguments.

[chill_wind]

12. Hell yes! n/t

[chill_wind]

11. Last call.. signed at this hour so far by 600 former campaign staffers

and 100,000+ volunteers and donors. You can still add your voice.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7309135#top

It's having trouble getting to the GP. Imagine that.

[Faryn Balyncd]

13. k and r

[RBInMaine]

14. It is an historical window of opportunity we can't blow, and reconciliation won't work.

There are too many moderate Senators who won't allow reconciliation, and we need to do this now in this historic window of opportunity. Lincoln, Baye, Nelson (Ben), Nelson (Bill), Conrad, Landrieu,
Lieberman, Webb, Warner, Pryor and maybe others would all have a serious problem with reconciliation on this particular bill, and it would set up other questionable precedents on something like this going forward. I personally wish we could get single payer, but if this is the best we can do given all the variables, so be it. It is a start, just a start. We can come back and try public option as a separate bill later on. I am not thrilled with this bill, but it is the best we can do for now. That is reality, and digging in heels against it helps the RePUKES, hurts us, and certainly does not do anything for the people at all. Change almost always happens slowly in America. You take the best you can get, and then build from there. That is the long view, and the reality view.

[Armstead]

15. IMO it would be totally to seperate out the contentious things and pass the....

aspects that are helpful and widely accepted now.

That bring immediate reform that everyone could feel good about, and allow time to hammer out a good longer range plan that is not cobbled together.

[patrice]

16. There's also that stuff that Dean was saying about Medicaide to be considered.