scheming daemons
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:01 AM
Original message |
The votes in senate among Democrats: 60-0 *FOR*... among Republicans: 40-0 *AGAINST* |
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If you're fighting to kill this bill, you can call yourself a progressive, a liberal, a democrat, a socialist, or a martian for all I care.
...but in reality, you're a Republican. At best, you're a useful idiot for the Republicans.... but that's a distinction without a difference.
Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, votes like a duck.... it's a fucking duck.
Senate Democrats are voting unanimously for the bill. Senate Republicans are voting unanimously against it.
The lone SOCIALIST in the Senate, Bernie Sanders, is voting for it. Go ahead... call him a "corporatist".
When your interests are aligned 100% with a certain group of people who you otherwise claim to despise... it's time for a little soul searching on your part. You might not be who you thought you were.
When you and Rush Limbaugh agree on what should happen to the Senate Health Care Bill... is it the bill that is the problem, or is it you?
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Skink
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:07 AM
Response to Original message |
1. The arm twisting was actually applied to the Democrats in this case. |
NanceGreggs
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message |
ZombieHorde
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Thu Dec-24-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
24. Using the same logic, do you think President Obama is a Republican? Consider... |
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Wiretapping prosecutions, Bush prosecutions, and the escalation of the war in Afghanistan.
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Armstead
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
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Your Rec of this disruptor "left bashing" changes my opinion
Not that you care....I'm just one of those awful liberal/;progressives who don't believe that a DLC style healthcare plan that strengthens the grip of abusive insurance companies is the best thing to do.
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NanceGreggs
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Thu Dec-24-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
59. Your former "admiration" is appreciated ... |
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Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 07:52 PM by NanceGreggs
... your current disdain is accepted without remorse or regret.
Just so's ya know, you - nor anyone else on this board - are not the arbiter of who is left, liberal and/or progressive.
Way too many self-appointed judges of such things on DU of late - and it invariably comes down to: "If you don't agree with ME, you are none of the above."
That being said, Happy Holidays to you and yours - and no, that's not snark. That's a matter of rising above political differences on a night when such things can be put aside.
The battle can be engaged again, with a vengeance, next week - next month - next year.
For now, I truly wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
:hi:
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BeatleBoot
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message |
3. Except there are only 58 Democrats in the Senate |
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Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 12:11 AM by BeatleBoot
40 Pukes
2 Independents Joe Lieberman (Sloth - CT) and Bernie Sanders (I - Vermont)
But I agree with the essence of the post. If you hate it, you might as well be a puke.
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ZombieHorde
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
56. Using the same logic, do you think President Obama is a Republican in essence? Consider... |
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Wiretapping prosecutions, Bush prosecutions, the escalation of the war in Afghanistan...
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BeatleBoot
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Fri Dec-25-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #56 |
60. Nope. He's a Democrat. |
ZombieHorde
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Fri Dec-25-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #60 |
62. Do you agree or disagree with the logic of the OP? |
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Seems to me, the logic in the OP would consider President Obama a Republican.
I don't believe President Obama is a Republican, I believe the logic in the OP is extremely flawed.
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Avalux
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message |
4. Ahhh - strange bedfellows indeed. |
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Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 12:08 AM by Avalux
Myself, I am excited about the vote tomorrow and will be watching history be made at 6 am. I am proud of Democrats and President Obama; it's not a perfect bill but it's a start! :hi:
I guess the anti-bill crowd will be snarling and posting nasty stuff here.
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Skink
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
8. They are coming in at 6. |
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Might as well use the internet.
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jefferson_dem
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:09 AM
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5. "Useful idiots" they are. |
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It's nice to see another sane voice on the board.
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Clio the Leo
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:09 AM
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LastNaturalist
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:09 AM
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7. Good, brutally honest, stuff. |
Parker CA
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:16 AM
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Gman
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:19 AM
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10. "at best a useful idiot" |
LastNaturalist
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:21 AM
Response to Original message |
11. This is a really good post. I hope some take this to heart. |
boppers
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:22 AM
Response to Original message |
12. This is DEMOCRATIC Underground. |
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My "Alert" button has been busy.
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LastNaturalist
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #12 |
14. I love your picture... |
Warren Stupidity
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:31 AM
Response to Original message |
13. I agree that this crappy bill has to pass. |
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I disagree that we should pretend that it isn't crappy.
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LastNaturalist
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
17. I think that's fair enough too. Although I would call it "moderately good." |
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Just me. But I understand your concerns.
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firedupdem
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:35 AM
Response to Original message |
dave29
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:37 AM
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ZombieHorde
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:41 AM
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18. Unrec for calling Lieberman a Democrat and using "band wagon" logic. nt |
scheming daemons
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
19. Technically, I called Bernie Sanders a Democrat also.... no unrec for that transgression I guess |
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Nothing to do with "bandwagon logic."
If you support something that 100% of Republicans in congress support... then own it... you're a fucking Republican... no matter what you choose to call yourself.
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ZombieHorde
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
20. "I called Bernie Sanders a Democrat also" Less offensive to my ear, but you're right, I should have |
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mentioned Sanders as well.
If you support something that 100% of Republicans in congress support... then own it... you're a fucking Republican... no matter what you choose to call yourself.
Is President Obama a Republican? Wiretapping prosecutions are a no, Bush prosecutions are a no, the escalation in Afghanistan...
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mullard12ax7
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:57 AM
Response to Original message |
21. God forbid a person would want health care instead of health insurance |
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Go call someone else a repuke ya corporatist whore.
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scheming daemons
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
22. Yep... me and Bernie Sanders are corporatist whores |
mullard12ax7
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Thu Dec-24-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
23. I guess you're another "useful idiot" |
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Have fun in the circle jerk of anti-American corporate spew.
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LastNaturalist
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Thu Dec-24-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
25. You don't know what "useful idiot" means in this instance, do you? |
Armstead
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #25 |
45. I know the classic definition of useful idiot |
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It was a right wing meme used to refer to liberals and progressives during the Anti-Communist witch hunts.
"Those civil rights activists, labor movement advocates are all useful idiots who are doing the Communists bidding without realizing it."
It is totally possible to disagree reasonably on either strategy of accepting this bill as is or pushing for something better.
But this blind bashing of progressive critics of this bill by accusing us of being Republican stooges is actually a mirror image of gthe useful idiot theory.
This bashing of liberals and progressives for daring to oppose a plan that is based on conservative principles (enshrine the "markets" as the entire basis of healthcare coverage) is really an example of useful idiots -- but a mirror image that is advancing the interests of corporate conservatism.
The "useful idiots" are those who are trying to stir up shit against progressives.
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JTFrog
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Thu Dec-24-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #45 |
54. The only "useful idiots" I've seen around here |
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Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 11:14 AM by JTFrog
are on threads such as this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7186213If you can find examples of "those who are trying to stir up shit against progressives" encouraging others to make alliances with teabaggers I'd sure love to see it. :shrug:
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Jane Austin
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Thu Dec-24-09 01:39 AM
Response to Original message |
26. Well said. .............n/t |
depakid
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Thu Dec-24-09 01:41 AM
Response to Original message |
27. I reckoned you were patholigically myopic and shallow during the primaries- |
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You've now confirmed that suspicion beyond any shadow of a doubt.
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scheming daemons
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Thu Dec-24-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #27 |
28. Wow... you STILL haven't gotten over Hillary's loss? |
LastNaturalist
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Thu Dec-24-09 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
29. Some of these people haven't gotten over Dean's 2004 loss... |
depakid
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
36. An all too predictable response- unfortunately. |
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Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 03:13 AM by depakid
Neither I, nor many others who've expressed __________(fill in the blank) about the substance and procedures chosen with this legislation- or indeed- many other policy decisions are (or were) Hillary supporters.
You cannot see that, because you're trapped in dichotomous thinking- for us or 'agin us sorts of things.
Armstead, for example has over the years been a very insightful poster here on this board- yet there are some who would holler PUMA!
or "he hasn't gotten over Dean." Or something similar.
I'm not as cool- nor as kind as he is- though I can give you and others a prezzy on Christmas Eve (given in Good Faith and in all earnesty) -when you look at ethical and moral dilemmas or philosophical aspects- or hard core angles of policy decisions- it's not so much the outcomes or the sides- but how you "find your way to one conclusion or another" that's important in the scheme of things- and this is true in personal, regional and national development.
It's up to you how to receive it- and what to do with the knowledge and insight about all sorts of things you may gain.
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ThePhilosopher04
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:25 AM
Response to Original message |
30. No, Bernie is misguided.... |
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and has fallen for the "we'll fix it later" bullshit that's flying around Washington...not to mention he got a dose of morphine - metaphorically speaking - in the form of $10 billion for community health centers...that will cloud the judgment of the most sane among us.
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PBS Poll-435
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #30 |
Jeff In Milwaukee
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #30 |
51. Because you're so much smarter than Bernie Sanders |
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and the other 58 Democrats in Congress. If only one of them -- JUST ONE OF THEM -- were gifted with your keen insights. Oh, how different things would have been.
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ProgressOnTheMove
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:36 AM
Response to Original message |
31. I am back for the bill, it's just I doubted my position for a moment. Let's get it done. |
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Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 02:39 AM by ProgressOnTheMove
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hulka38
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #31 |
48. When you came back in did you slide right under the door? |
PBS Poll-435
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:39 AM
Original message |
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Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 02:39 AM by PBS Poll-435
:shrug:
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PBS Poll-435
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:39 AM
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Hekate
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:41 AM
Response to Original message |
33. Kick and Rec and get it done. nt |
Garam_Masala
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:45 AM
Response to Original message |
34. Let the facts speak for themselves |
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No Single Payer. SP system is true HCR. Everything else is hodge podge. With SP, every living person is in the same pool, and paying on their ability to pay based on income. So simple yet so elegant.
P.O missing. Not as good as SP, but the ONLY way to make sure there is competition to the for profit private health insurance industry.
No re-import of Drugs. This is missing from both bills as far as I know. Are you aware Big Pharma passed on to us 11% increase this year? If this bill is not a bonanza for Big Pharma with mandates and subsidized additional customers then I have a bridge in Minnesota I can sell you.
No limits on insurance premiums. Sure they can't cancel you or refuse you. But they can jack up premiums for all their customers until there is enough profit to pay big bonuses to the big corporate honcho's. Why there are no limits on pay when the TARP recipients and Bailout recipients are subject to pay restrictions?
To sum up, I don't see much cost reduction to health care in these bills. It is exactly the opposite...middle class and up will pay more. Big Pharma and Big Insurance are the Big winners. If you don't believe me, please check their stock performance on Wall Street.
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Undercurrent
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Thu Dec-24-09 02:59 AM
Response to Original message |
eridani
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Thu Dec-24-09 04:28 AM
Response to Original message |
38. Mandates to buy SHIT from parasitic corporations are FASCIST n/t |
Jeff In Milwaukee
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #38 |
52. This will probably never be laid to rest... |
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because too many people have their ego's involved at this point. But the bill passed by the Senate has specific coverage requirements. This from Sect 1302(b)(1):
(A) Ambulatory patient services. (B) Emergency services. (C) Hospitalization. (D) Maternity and newborn care. (E) Mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment. (F) Prescription drugs. (G) Rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices. (H) Laboratory services. (I) Preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management. (J) Pediatric services, including oral and vision care.
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eridani
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Fri Dec-25-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #52 |
61. Great. Now can I have that stuff for a reasonable price? |
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The bottom level plan (the only one subsidized) pays only 60-70% of actual costs.
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Ed76638
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Thu Dec-24-09 06:58 AM
Response to Original message |
39. Enjoy your corporate mandates |
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Along with your fail in 2010 & 2012.
:rofl:
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mcablue
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Thu Dec-24-09 07:11 AM
Response to Original message |
40. You can be a Democrat and not agree with 100% of their votes |
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Your accusation that a huge number of DU'ers are Republicans is illogical.
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hulka38
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Thu Dec-24-09 09:57 AM
Response to Original message |
41. Progressives are Republicans? The reality is the senate bill just plain sucks. |
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Can two different groups of people dislike a bill for two very different reasons? Of course. That shouldn't be a difficult concept.
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pampango
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #41 |
44. I would look more at how progressive Democrats voted, both in the House and the Senate, |
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rather than just the number of Democrats since many of them wouldn't be too comfortable at DU. :)
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hulka38
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #44 |
47. I appreciate the smiley face pampango - Merry Christmas - but this is a nonsensical |
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and nasty little thread we have here. Frankly, I don't care where elected Democrats, especially senators, are comfortable. I hope they'd be uncomfortable. At least they'd be listening.
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Armstead
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Thu Dec-24-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message |
42. Its Christmas -- but you are an asshole |
LastNaturalist
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #42 |
46. Name-calling - always classy! |
Armstead
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #46 |
49. Read the Original Post |
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My response was to the name-calling and insults and distortions in that.
If the poster has said something like "I believe it's really important for those who are critical of this bill to unite with Democrats because we have to stand together against the GOP and teabaggers" .....I might have disagreed but I would do so in a lot more civil way.
But he (she) tosses out a torrent of insults, and that will generate a similar response.
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scheming daemons
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Thu Dec-24-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #42 |
55. I'd rather be an asshole than a tool for Michael Steele |
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...
and that's what you are.
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THUNDER HANDS
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Thu Dec-24-09 10:50 AM
Response to Original message |
50. why are you talking that crazy talk |
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don't you know it's better to have 0% of a perfect bill than 40% of an imperfect one?
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Jeff In Milwaukee
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Thu Dec-24-09 11:01 AM
Response to Original message |
53. This is a Democratic Bill... |
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Being passed over the strident objections of every Republican in the Senate and over the howling of every right-wing talking head in the country.
It's the most important social justice legislation to be passed by Congress in 40 years.
If you're not at least somewhat pleased (hell, I'd like to see it improved) by these events, you're either a) not a progressive or b) a complete fool.
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Cali_Democrat
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:40 PM
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Wardoc
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Thu Dec-24-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message |
58. Logical fallacies supplant actual idelogical purpose. The cool kids are doing it, we should too! |
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Garbage bill, garbage argument.
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Zavulon
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Fri Dec-25-09 02:03 AM
Response to Original message |
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Wanting to hold out for a good bill instead of passing a piece of shit under the president's "It's this year or never" pressure doesn't mean we're Republicans. And just because Limbaugh hated the same bill some of us Democrats hated doesn't mean it was for the same reasons. I didn't think it covered enough people or kicked in quickly enough. I hated the fact that it sucked up to insurance companies. Limbaugh hates it for entirely different reasons. He doesn't want anyone new covered under any circumstances, and for that fact he doesn't want anyone covered at all. That means our interests aren't aligned at all, much less your quoted 100%.
When you're trying to slap a label on everyone in your party who isn't gleefully accepting a shitty bill, the problem isn't with us - it's with the bill, and it's with you. Seriously, what are you expecting to accomplish with such a condescending post? Were you expecting us all to say "Gee, shucks, this genius is right about everything and I should make every attempt to benefit from the wisdom and depth of the ubiquitous 'here's how you should think' posts like this one?"
LOTS of Democrats hate this bill, and for you to say that all of us (or even a small percentage of us) have our interests "aligned 100% with a certain group of people" is absolute bullshit. We wanted a GOOD bill, not sloppy shit assembled after a complete lack of unity just so that the president can claim a campaign promise was kept. The ones we despise don't want any bill at all.
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thelordofhell
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Fri Dec-25-09 02:30 AM
Response to Original message |
64. Who is your favorite Senator? |
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How did your favorite Senator vote?
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hulka38
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Fri Dec-25-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #64 |
mtnester
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Fri Dec-25-09 07:17 AM
Response to Original message |
65. Which it will always be, and which is why we need to STOP negotiating |
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majority terms of surrender with a minority that will CONTINUE to vote this way...on everything
Twisting the blue dog arms is fine and should be a daily occurrence, but I would give the rest of them about 20 seconds of attention, then move on
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JVS
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Fri Dec-25-09 07:23 AM
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66. If 57 dems and one independent want to eat Lieberman's and Nelson's turds and call them truffles.... |
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