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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 01:44 PM
Original message
Not good news for the RW or anyone counting on mandates being unconstitutional

Federalism is no bar to health care reform

By Robert A. Schapiro

Federalism serves as the latest rallying cry for critics of health care reform. The foes of current legislative proposals charge that Congress is overstepping its bounds and infringing on the prerogatives of the states.

The critics are right that federalism, the allocation of authority among the states and the national government, remains a fundamental principle of our constitutional system. But it is the advocates of reform, not their opponents, who are the true standard bearers of federalism. The health care plans build on the interaction of state and federal power that is central to federalism.

Critics of health care reform brandish federalism as a weapon to undermine democracy, to invite judges to control policy debates. But contrary to their claims, federalism serves to empower citizens, not judges.

The current target of faux federalists is the “individual mandate,” the requirement that all Americans buy health insurance unless they cannot afford it. Friends and foes of health care legislation agree that the mandate is essential to all serious reform proposals. Currently, individuals can avoid paying health care premiums, secure in the knowledge that hospitals — and ultimately the citizens who do buy insurance — will be on the hook for expensive emergency procedures. In this way, taxpayers already provide insurance for people who could, but do not, pay the premiums.

<...>

Even Justice Antonin Scalia, no fan of expansive claims of federal power, voted to affirm Congress’ authority. Justice Scalia explained, “Congress may regulate even noneconomic local activity if that regulation is a necessary part of a more general regulation of interstate commerce.”


more


Despite the fact that the case was a dispute over property, the fines themselves, and also the money one is forced to be used to pay for health insurance, and the fact that the plaintiff had chosen trial by jury as the means of dispute resolution, Judge Kathe M. Tuttman dismissed the case upon a Motion filed by Assistant Attorney General Amy Spector. A petition for a Writ of Mandamus, Docket No SJ-2009-0098, to the Massachusetts Supreme Court, ordering Essex Superior Court to vacate this dismissal on procedural grounds, the failure to provide trail by jury in a dispute over property as requested by the plaintiff, was denied. The right to trial by jury in a dispute over property is protected by the 7th Amendment to the US Constitution, Article 15 of the Massachusetts Bill of Rights<61>, as well as Mass. Rules of Civil Procedure 38 and 39<62>. An Appeal was then filed with the Massachusetts Appeal Court and was given Docket No. 2009-P-0526. A later petition for a Writ of Mandamus, Docket No. SJ-2009-0146, with the Massachusetts Supreme Court, ordering the Appeals Court to vacate the dismissal on procedural grounds, as above, and to return the case to Essex Superior Court for trial by jury, was also denied.<63>

link


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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Quick
hide from reality.

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mcablue Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. i've always been against being the first to reply to one's own thread
Why not include the first comment in the thread body and give others the change to reply first? Seems selfish to me.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Catering to mega-insurance companies is not federalism.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Mischaracterizing an issue as catering to insurance companies
doesn't make it reality.

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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. How is it a mis-characterization? The whole process was centered
around passing something that insurance companies would accept.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I guess you missed
the insurance companies fighting reform every step of the way, spending over a half billion dollars. And they're still not happy.


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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Hell of an investment wasn't it. Misdirection of epic proportions.
A trillion dollars every five years to the insurance companies, whoa, I'd have made the world believe I didn't want reform as well, if I knew it had that kind of reward for my coffers.

I made a tidy gain on my portfolio yesterday thanks to having moved some of it to insurance related stocks.

I wish investing were always that easy.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. "A trillion dollars every five years" Ah, the flawed math
45,000,000 customers

x $375/month

= 16.875 billion per month

= 202 billion/year

= 1.01 Trillion Dollars every 5 years

Think of the Senators they can buy with that!


If that's what you're basing that statement on, it's wrong.

Only 15 million more people will get private insurance. (the other 15 million are being added to the Medicaid rolls)

15 million x 59.25 ($395 x 15%)

=888.75 million/month

=10.665 billion/year

=53.325 billion/5 year

Do you know how many people the industry employs? Subtract industry overhead, increasing that to reflect having to service 15 million more people.



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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. As someone who has subsidized insurance
and knows that people like you make money from taxpayers, or pay taxes yourselves that make their way into your portfolio through subsidies; I don't care. Yeah. Make money from insurance. Why should anyone care. As long as everybody gets to see a doctor and gets treatment for illness. If people want to pay taxes on the one hand so they can make insurance profits on the other, whatever. Let them play.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. And you must have missed the senate bending over back wards to appease them.
Those millions went to influence legislation.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Who took the money? n/t
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. You can start here.
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 11:06 AM by geckosfeet
Who gave the money

Who took the money

Please don't let me know if you bottom needs to be cleaned as well.



It is obvious to anyone who takes even a cursory glance at the landscape of health insurance in our country that the insurance companies are running the show.

Premiums increase yearly.

Denial of coverage is routine procedure.

Prescriptions drug costs are ridiculous.

To imply that the government passed this bill to protect the citizens is naive at best. The few provisions that do mandate coverage by the insurance companies were agreed to by the insurance companies only because they have been permitted to increase costs of coverage and are guaranteed a bottomless source of revenue for the foreseeable future.

Our politicians now have some political cover (as do you) to point to legislation that requires insurance companies to make good on certain forms of coverage. Why should we have to pass legislation that requires health insurance companies to provide coverage in the first place? The premise is absurd.

IMO our government should be championing health care for people, not revenue for insurance companies. The government should be looking out for the needs of the citizens not the needs of the health insurance lobby and companies.

But we all know that the more money the insurance companies rake in the more gets skimmed of the top for legislators.

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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
7. One law professor's opinion
There will be others until the court makes a decision pro or con to hear the case.

Last time I checked, Bob Shapiro isn't on the court, though he may someday be there.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Yeah, overlook every opinion
including the Mass Supreme Court.

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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Pro you are as fine of a legal mind
as you are someone who can predict what is in legislation, wrong on everything.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. It doesn't take a genius
to apply common sense.

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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Like the promises you made of a Public Option in the bill nt.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I promised you something?
Really?

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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I said it wouldn't be in there you assured me it would
How about that Stupak amendment, you think that makes it through conference.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Assured you? I made up your mind for you? n/t
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. That article is about the centuries old doctrine of preemption of state law by federal law.
Edited on Fri Dec-25-09 03:07 PM by rug
It does not address the core question of whether the government can order its citizens to purchase health insurance from a private for-profit entity.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. The MSM keeps repeating the lie that Currently, individuals can avoid paying health care premiums,
secure in the knowledge that hospitals — and ultimately the citizens who do buy insurance — will be on the hook for expensive emergency procedures."

It's not true - you still get a bill when you get out of the hospital.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. That's not entirely true
There are a lot of ways to get out of paying those bills, one is, for example, to declare hardship. Do you think that people aren't doing that?

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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes, but they make it seem like you can go to a hospital and walk away without being dogged
by collection agencies for years on end....
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Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. There is no chance it would be ruled unconstitutional
Edited on Fri Dec-25-09 03:48 PM by Blasphemer
Whether it should be or not (I'll leave that debate to Constitutional scholars). They will not set such a precedent. It would open a can of worms that they are simply not going to open. I would not be surprised if the vote was 9-0 if it even gets that far.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I predict if it goes to SCOTUS it will be thrown out as having "no merit"
just like the Birther's claims.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Au contraire. The precedent of forcing ALL citizens to give money to PRIVATE companies is what is
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 12:34 AM by WinkyDink
the true and unfortunate can of worms.

I would not expect THIS SCOTUS to rule against for-profit companies.
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Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Oh I agree...
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 03:46 PM by Blasphemer
I was speaking from the point of view of the Supreme Court and the particular can of worms they would avoid opening because yes, this Supreme Court will not make a ruling against corporations that could potentially be applied in other instances. Unfortunately, I think we will indeed be left with a very damning precedent. There will be no barriers to privatizing anything at all.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-25-09 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. We'll see what happens when the right case actually goes to the Court.
Schapiro is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion doesn't really count.

Kill the bill.


Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Perhaps not but his opinion seems to shared by the constitutional scholars
that have been interviewed although two opined that the court would simply decline a case. Personally, i think that is most likely.
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