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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 02:24 PM
Original message
HCR Bill - a Frenchman's viewpoint

HCR Bill - a Frenchman's viewpoint (UPDATE)

by French Imp

Hi! I'm French, I live in France but I've been around here on DKOS for quite some time (it all began shortly after the Iowa primary). Although I've written many comments, this is my first diary. An awe-inspiring occasion: Jerome a Paris has set very high standards!

However it occurred to me that the point of view of a Frenchman might be relevant to the current debates, since the French system is considered exemplary by many here, but I realize that it is not always well known. I'm no healthcare expert, mind you. I intend to present general facts about the French system (la Sécurité Sociale, colloquially la Sécu), its origins, how it works and how it is perceived (as far as I can tell) and then, I will give you a personal appreciation on the present situation in the US, in the light of this foreigner's experience.

Perhaps I should note that I've been a heartfelt Obama supporter from the start, so feel free to consider me prejudiced if you like. However, I will try to describe as objectively as I can the French system, and when I express opinions about it I'll try to make it clear.

How did La Sécurité Sociale come about?

The underlying principle of the French welfare system was originally instituted by the Conseil National de la Résistance or CNR. The CNR, which represented both the communist and the gaullist resistance was the coordinating organ of the French Resistance during the war, and played a major role in shaping post-war institutions and promoting social justice.

La Sécurité sociale was not created by one single piece of legislation. It was a very protracted process. Initially it concerned only employees in the private sector (1945)), civil servants (1947), agricultural workers (1961), other workers (1966). It became universal only in 1999 (until then part of the population and notably the homeless were not covered). There was a gradual shift as initially, the aim was to protect 'workers and their families', whereas today healthcare is considered as a human right rather than a worker's right.

How is it organized and managed
La Sécurité Sociale is what you people call a single-payer system. It covers 4 'branches' namely - Health Insurance (l'Assurance Maladie - we always seem to favor the pessimistic point of view) - Insurance against work accidents and illnesses - Pensions - Subsidies for families with >= 2 children
(Insurance for workers who lose their jobs belongs with a separate but similar entity called ASSEDIC).

La Sécurité Social is not government-run.
It has its own budget and is managed jointly (on a 50-50 basis) by trade unions and employer's organizations. In fact the employers are united and the trade unions are divided so that for all practical purposes the employers prevail, but they can't do exactly what they would like to do. (This is a personal appreciation based on facts).

How is it paid for?
It's not free! It is not paid for by taxes (or should not be) !
So how does it work? Let me give first my personal example. Each month I get about 4200 euros on my bank account from my employer. But my employer
pays 9500 for my salary. The difference, that is 5300, goes almost entirely to la Sécu (that's the social contribution). About half of that serves for Health insurance.

On the 4200 I get, I still have to pay the tax on the revenue (about 450 in my case) and local taxes (about 450 as well - I live in a city where local taxes are very high).

I think I have convinced you that it's not for free.

The algorithm for computing social contributions is complicated but roughly speaking, half of what an employer pays goes to the employee and the other half is the social contribution. That is, the social contribution is hardly progressive (meaning the ratio contribution/salary is roughly constant, unlike the ratio revenue tax/revenue).

Are there problems?

The system works well in the sense that if you are seriously ill you do not have to worry too much about money; essentially all is paid for.
Still everything is not paid for (especially in the case of everyday ailments) and there are more and more exceptions, more and more cases when you have to pay something - or even everything. But, if this trend is alarming to many people, right now we pay on average a tiny proportion of the costs.

It has drawbacks. The social contributions are public money (in a sense) which goes essentially to private pockets: most physicians, pharmacists and other medical professionals work in the private system, some hospitals are private, others are public. The fees are in principle negociated with La Sécurite Sociale but very often physicians ask for much more than what will be refunded to their patients. And of course the Pharma industry profits vastly. La Sécurité Sociale is not in a strong position to negociate as it is basically run by employers and governments are submitted to constant lobbying from the industry and physicians' organizations.

Moreover employers complain that the cotisations sociales are too much of a burden for them and since around 1970 all governements have granted them rebates (recall that basically employers also manage la Sécu). In principle those rebates are complensated by government money (that is taxes!) but in fact the government owes a huge amount to la Sécu. What with that and the increase in costs, la Sécu has a big deficit (in fact it's not that clear - according to some it is made up) which is constantly invoked to reduce payments.

Also, part of the population say that La Sécu is ill-managed, that many people cheat etc. In my opinion this is only marginally true and is mostly used as a political weapon against La Sécu.

more


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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Was an excellent perspective....
You may wish to consider bolding the key part: "La Sécurité sociale was not created by one single piece of legislation....".
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Well, thank you for highlighting that.
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wow, 55% ( 5300/9500) of his salary goes to French SS
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 02:46 PM by andym
which includes health care, pension etc. And 27.5% (50% of 55%) of his salary goes to health care.

That seems very high. Even without for-profit insurers. Why are the costs so high there?
I don't think that these rates would be politically tenable here.

Very informative article. Makes a very good point about the idea that even the current US bill will help establish health care as a right guaranteed by the government.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Reading the comments helps...
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 02:54 PM by BlooInBloo
(I don't know how to link a specific one, so I'll just paste it in full)


Some corrections, from a French Kossack (6+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
bumblebums, TiaRachel, greeseyparrot, mikolo, bmcphail, dmitcha

I share your opinion about the French system. However, I have some remarks:

- The French Assurance Maladie is not government-run, but it is a non-profit organistion supervised by the government (Ministry of Health and Ministry of Finance) and by the Parliament (through the annual health expenses objective - ONDAM).

- It is not true that employers are united: there are disagreements between MEDEF (big corporations) CGPME (small and medium entreprises) and UPA (artisans). So, saying that the Sécu is ruled by employers is exaggerated.

- The way you present the contributions is misleading: the difference between net and gross salary doen't go "almost entirely" to La Sécu (which, as you mention, covers not only health, but also work accidents, pensions and family subsidies). A significant part of it goes to unemployment insurance, and a small part goes to continuing vocational training as well as housing.

- It is important to mention that a significant part of these contributions goes to private (often non-profit) supplementary insurance.

- The system is partly progressive: wages under 1,6 minimum wage (SMIC) pay less to La Sécu.

- La Sécu has cnsiderable bargaining power both with the Pharma industry (drug prices are strictly regulated) and with the physicians, who seldom obtain what they want.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. 9,500 Euros per month is very high income in France
To give you another example. I'm in France now looking at my husband's "bulletin de paie." His salary this month was 2,400.64€ and his take home pay was 1975.44€. So that's 465€ worth of deductions for the Sécu plus sundry various other taxes. At his salary, 465€ out of his paycheck every month does not seem at all unreasonable to him.

At any rate, a lot more people in France make 2,400€ a month than 9,500. That's for sure.
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes those numbers are better: 425€/2400€=17% for SS
and 50% of that for health care would be 8.5% which is more reasonable.

(2400€-1975€=425€ not 465€)
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Yes, that's right, 425
Thanks for the correction and the percentage calculations.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Is there a step missing?
The OP states:

So how does it work? Let me give first my personal example. Each month I get about 4200 euros on my bank account from my employer. But my employer
pays 9500 for my salary. The difference, that is 5300, goes almost entirely to la Sécu (that's the social contribution). About half of that serves for Health insurance.

On the 4200 I get, I still have to pay the tax on the revenue (about 450 in my case) and local taxes (about 450 as well - I live in a city where local taxes are very high).


Is the 465 euros, you mentioned equivalent to the 5300 or the 900 in the second graph?

If it's equivalent to the 5300, how much additional is revenue and local taxes?

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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Other than the 425€ taken out of his paycheck every month
The only other taxes he pays is his income tax. And that amounts to a little under 1,500€ per year. He doesn't own property so pays no property tax.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Most likely not salary but (salary + charges salariales + charges patronales)
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 06:50 PM by Mass
(payroll taxes + company taxes on salary). Which would make raw salary at about 6000 € (not sure what the rates are these days, but this is what I got from the numbers).
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. 1 Euro currently equals $1.43
so this guy makes $13,600 per month.
Sounds like France has a progressive system of taxation and funding social programs.
I don't see a problem here.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I cannot remember ever meeting anyone in France who makes that much a month
That I know of. It has to be a very small minority of wage earners that are in that bracket.

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sasquatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'll have to read it all later
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. OK, let me try to answer. First the system is paid by taxes, mostly payroll taxes
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 06:48 PM by Mass
that are indexed on your salary, but also taxes on other incomes. My guess is that the OP is confused because the French word is not "impot" (taxes in English), but "charges sociales" (payroll taxes). Also, as explained in a previous post, the payroll taxes are not that high, but companies participate, and it covers everything: retirement, health, welfare, unemployment (that is longer and higher than in the States, though it tends to be less and less as unemployment gets higher). This is how the 45 % is obtained. (and before somebody tells me that he knows the system better than I do, I am French and have been in France on both sides of the system, working for others and having my own company). I have to say I am not sure I would understand why what he says is misleading if I was not living in the US. The system is very different from the British system and my guess is that this is what the OP is comparing to, but it is also very different from what the Senate and House sytem are proposing. Mostly because it is single payer and that unions have an input in the system, which keeps it honest).

It is true that the system is not government run, but it is a system where workers and employers elect who is going to manage. It may actually be close to what Conrad was proposing as cooperatives, except the system is mandatory, which allows a huge scale factor, and the government plays an important role in defining the parameters.

Apologies because this is in French, but here are the REA: rates for healthcare:
http://www.lexisnexis.fr/services_gratuits/indices_taux/charges_sociales_salaires.html

Payroll taxes Additional taxes paid by companies
7.5 %
0.75 % 13 %

So, let's assume that your salary is 4000 euros a month, you will pay 330 euros out of your paycheck for healthcare and your company will pay an additional 520 euros .

All the other rates relate to unemployment, retirement, ...
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. Real healthcare rates for France (which correspond to what BlooInBloo posted)
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 06:48 PM by Mass
Apologies because this is in French, but here are the REA: rates for healthcare:
http://www.lexisnexis.fr/services_gratuits/indices_taux/charges_sociales_salaires.html

Payroll taxes Additional taxes paid by companies
7.5 %
0.75 % 13 %

So, let's assume that your salary is 4000 euros a month, you will pay 330 euros out of your paycheck for healthcare and your company will pay an additonal 520 euros .

All the other rates relate to unemployment, retirement, ...
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Someone paying 850 euros a month
for healthcare is paying about $1275, or about $15,200 a year. That seems high compared with per person costs for France listed at $3,000 in 2007 by various sources. There's something wrong there. We're not getting a full exlanation of the costs.

I'd like to see the costs for the British system.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. There is no free system. The main difference is who you pay to and whether it is a flat fee
according to your need or a fee based on your salary.

My best guess is that the $3000 a year is the AVERAGE paid in France by a person for his part (not the company part). It is an average, with people paying $0 and people paying double than that or more. It would have to be compared to what somebody pays in this country including premium, Medicare and part of Social Security charges, and deductibles for a comparison, and the part of income taxes that go to CHIP. The point is that you pay according to your income, and that 4000 euros a month is a fairly high salary in France where, in 2004, the average annual salary was 20,440 euros.

The British system is based on general taxes. I am not sure whether there is an explicit explanation of how much of your income goes to healthcare, but it is probably around the same if you were able to pay the system.

The Senate system is a flat fee, with some subsidies and an exemption of you cannot get an insurance for less than 8% of your annual income. So, it does not matter whether you earn $6000 a month or 100,000 a year. You still pay the same amount for the same insurance.
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