Islamiana is expanding....

[WCGreen]

Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Yemen...

They hate us for our freedom...


War is Peace...

Freedom is Slavery...

Ignorance is Strength...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. Yep - I'm interested only in the women's plight within Islam

And until women are free within it, I will not see Islam in a fair light of any sort.

[azurnoir]

3. Do these progressive feelings of concern for womens rights

extend to Christianity, Hinduism, and Judaism or do you reserve your concern for women to Islam?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. They would if the problem that exists in Islam existed among them

What kind of person are you that you don't seem to give a damn about the plight of Islamic women?

[Colobo]

5. Well said.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. Thanks! nt

[azurnoir]

12. Your post shows a fair amount of either

ignorance of things that extend beyond the daily news reports or perhaps bigotry IMO

[IndianaGreen]

6. Jewish women were attacked by religious zealots for carrying a Torah at Wailing Wall

Your selective outrage smacks of Islamophobia!

[MH1]

27. for carrying a Torah. Not for being a man's property that didn't behave correctly, right?

[azurnoir]

10. So your concern os only limited to Islam

just as I thought no concern what so ever for bride burning practiced by Hindu's in India? there is a lot of concern just like yours

and the oh so common its you that doesn't care just does not cut it.

The women on your avatar would be horrified by remarks such as yours

[IndianaGreen]

14. but not to Saudi Arabia

the poster is rather selective in his outrage.

[azurnoir]

17. or Gaza either n/t

[WCGreen]

21. If you are referring to me, Saudi Arabia wasn't considered because

we are not now at war with Saudi Arabia...

This is a play off of the Book called 1984. The quotes are from 1984. I combined the names to call it Islamiana because one of the three country's in 1984 was called Oceania. You see they were always at war with one another.

Sometimes I forget that younger people may not been required to read 1984 while in school.

[MH1]

28. I can't speak for Sarah but I share her concern about Islam. However I do have the same concern

about Hinduism. HOWEVER, Hinduism does not seem to be growing and spreading in the world, while Islam is. Thus, I have hope that modernization is correcting the issue in Hindu cultures. However we see a strong backlash against modernization and women's rights by some Islamic factions that seem to be gaining strength. It is the growth of the attitude that makes it much more troubling.

I really don't care who or what someone wants to worship, if they want to pray once a year or five times a day or once an hour. But when a significant swath of your religion or culture institutionalizes the treatment of women as property rather than persons - I have a HUGE problem with that. Call me Islamaphobic if you want, but tell me another religion that is spreading that despicable culture towards women, and I will be just as pissed off about that one too. (And yes I really despise the elements of Christian fundamentalism that also treat women as property, although usually less blatantly and less violently.)

[ShortnFiery]

13. B.S. if the right wing Christians had their way, women would be 2nd class citizens too. eom

[MH1]

29. True. Those so-called Christians are almost as bad.

Luckily we have stopped the most egregious manifestations of what they would like to see, in this country.

[Ken Burch]

24. They need liberation. American-led wars can't give it to them

We need to support Islamic women's movements in POSITIVE ways.

[Ken Burch]

23. American force can NEVER liberate Islamic women

What happened in Iraq proves that, once and for all. It will be the same in Afghanistan after we've escalated.

The days when an American war could have any progressive consequences ended in 1945. It's folly to try to revive the notion of a "liberal war", especially since wars for corporate "national interests" almost always cancel out any progressive tendencies in the war zones in question.

[enid602]

26. Saddam

Don´t forget too that Saddam, while a savage dictator, was singular in his secular approach to women´s rights, and had won awards from the UN in the mid-60´s.

[PurityOfEssence]

31. How is that possible? Second-class status is at the heart of the belief.

This bizarre belief that religions are inherently "good" really gets in the way of any fair analysis of how these systems work.

Women are dirt in all of the major religions; it's just a matter of degree. Having said that, though, it's often a mixture of local customs and religion that gets confused with the religions themselves. Then again, having said that, too, the religions are very adaptable to traditional abuses, and play the game quite well.

Islam is particularly bad on this subject.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. We've been down that road many times...

Will we ever learn?

I doubt it...

As long as we have standing armies and people who want to make use of them.

K&R

[timeforpeace]

8. Nice to see people catching on. Best thing about electing Obama is getting the rest of the country

to pay attention to this threat.

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. one cannot claim to care about Muslim women while promoting hostility toward Muslims

That would be purely cynical and faked concern. Almost all Muslim women like Muslim men - even the most liberal and western educated - are still religious and would not welcome the help of those who claim concern for them while advocating contempt and hostility toward Muslim people and the faith they hold dear. Those who claim such concern yet promote hostility are simply being more than just a little bit disingenuous.

Let me make it clear that I do not think Sharia law is a good thing and would hope the region moves toward a more modern and liberal direction. Unfortunately whenever the United States or a leading ally of the United States behaves in a belligerent manner, the reactionary fundamentalist forces gain in strength. Just as when the United States was attacked on September 11, 2001 - we saw reactionary elements gain in strength and liberal elements weakened, even in America - the same is true in the Middle East and just about everywhere else.

[IndianaGreen]

16. That's how Islamophobes are!

[MH1]

30. Good post, except it is not "faked concern", it is lack of understanding.

"WHY would any woman stay in a religion (or want to be in a religion) that abuses her so??" or, "WHY does she stay with that boyfriend who beats her?"

To be honest I can't answer either question. No way would I stay with someone or some culture that abused me that way. But I've seen people stay in destructive relationships enough that I know you can't help them by being judgmental about that. Still, the abuse of women by many Islamic factions is simply unacceptable in civilized society. To suggest that it is in any way acceptable or that those who object to it are the ones with the problem is as bad as suggesting rape and murder are ok.

[Douglas Carpenter]

32. there are lots of problems among the world's 1.3 billion Muslims -half of whom are women themselves

Fortunately there are human rights organizations and Muslim womens organization that do deal with these problems. Most of these 1.3 billion people live in very poor parts of the world or parts of the world until quite recently were outside of the world of modernity.

Those who do want to help with the human rights situation throughout the entire region should support the good works of organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch who have credibility precisely because they care about human rights - not pushing a particular agenda. They are deeply critical of Arab and Muslim governments but they are equally critical of the United States and Israel. This gives them credibility.

There are also several Muslim womens organizations that are growing quite rapidly and very effectively.

Unfortunately this whole issue is complicated by the reality that many Americans have essentially a cartoonish, if not deeply bigoted picture of the whole Middle East. Some people seem to have the impression that the whole of Arab and Islamic world is like a cross between the Talaban and Disney's Aladen.

That whole view of the Middle East is delusional and simply conforms to a Western fantasy. It is no more a picture of reality then to imagine Africa as a place where savage native cannibals dance around a fire while cooking their white captives. In fact Africa today almost certainly has far more human rights abuses and the treatment of women is almost certainly worse than in the Middle East regardless what religion dominates in whatever country. But this is not the story that some would want to promote.

I have in fact lived in the Middle East approximately half my life and yes, I do know something about. I have seen with my own eyes the changes and the progress that have been astounding over the past decades. I am even vain enough to be grateful that I have at times and in very small ways done what I could to improve things in this part of the world.

Throughout most of the Arab and much of the Muslim world woman compose more than 50% of University students and are rapidly evolving into the majority of the professional class. Many women, especially in the Arab world are increasingly living far more independent and liberated lives. There is still a long, long way to go even in the most modern part of the Arab and Islamic world - but it is still a far, far cry from how thing were only two decades ago and a farther cry from what many Americans imagine.

Even in a country as strict as Saudi Arabia the local media now criticizes the government and even the religious authorities. I would agree that the criticism is restrained by western standards. But it far exceeds anything people once imagined would ever be possible. Even the local media in Saudi Arabia and throughout the Gulf region now regularly exposes human rights abuses against women and editorials run all the time calling for equal rights and protections. These are the kind of things that should be encouraged, not demonization or military aggressions.

Most major Arab cities these days are modern, vibrant and cosmopolitan. All the pleasure and luxuries of life and even vices are as abundantly available as they are anywhere on earth. One will find lots and lots of professional women who are excelling in all aspects of their lives, both professionally and personally.

Again, tho who are genuinely serious about wanting to improve the human rights situation in the Middle East should support the good work of organizations like Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch as well as Muslim womens organizations and they absolutely must oppose the kind of belligerent and confrontational policies that only strengthen the hands of fundamentalist and weakens the hands of liberal and democratic forces.

Demonizing Muslim people or military agression are two things that certainly do not help anyone - certainly not women. It does however strengthen the hands of reactionary and fundamentalist forces.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Yeah, but they STFU real quick now that they know that the USA can send their KILLER DRONES ...

any damn where we please.

I was much happier when "the powers that be" kept these ILLEGAL KILLINGS both COVERT and UNPUBLISHED. :(

[IndianaGreen]

15. Our drone strikes have killed more innocent civilians than bad guys

and it is a war crime!

[ShortnFiery]

18. Yes, even IF - and that's a big "if" - we strike the accused people it's Summary Executions ...

Without Trial.

It's COUNTER to the rule of law. Drone Strikes are just VILE unless we are legitimately "AT WAR" with a particular nation. Then, give it all we've got and get it over with. These low level conflicts where our Generals can play Judge, Jury and Executioner are just plain EVIL.

[IndianaGreen]

19. I am waiting for a drone strike against Caracas or Havana

I wouldn't put it past this President.

[UnseenUndergrad]

20. I'd alert...

But I have absolutely no idea what's going on.

[WCGreen]

22. In the novel 1984,I left a real big hint with the three quotes right out of the book...

War is Peace...

Freedom is Slavery...

Ignorance is Strength...

Anyway, the plot call for the country to be always at war with one of the other two blocks of nations in order to keep the people from discovering what is really going on behind the scene.

I named the country where was was being waged upon as Islamiana because on of the alliances in the book was called Oceania.

I sometimes forget that people may have not read 1984, on o the seminal books about the politics of control.

It was meant to be satire but I guess everyone seems to have missed the point.

BTW, I suggest that everyone read George Orwell's 1984...

[Forkboy]

25. This is my favorite post of the day.

:)