Senate "Moderate" Dems to W.H.: Drop cap-and-trade (Politico)

[jefferson_dem]

Senate Dems to W.H.: Drop cap-and-trade

Bruised by the health care debate and worried about what 2010 will bring, moderate Senate Democrats are urging the White House to give up now on any effort to pass a cap-and-trade bill next year.

“I am communicating that in every way I know how,” says Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.), one of at least half a dozen Democrats who've told the White House or their own leaders that it's time to jettison the centerpiece of their party's plan to curb global warming.

The creation of an economy-wide market for greenhouse gas emissions is as the heart of the climate bill that cleared the House earlier this year. But with the health care fight still raging and the economy still hurting, moderate Democrats have little appetite for another sweeping initiative — especially another one likely to pass with little or no Republican support.

“We need to deal with the phenomena of global warming, but I think it’s very difficult in the kind of economic circumstances we have right now,” said Indiana Democratic Sen. Evan Bayh, who called passage of any economy-wide cap and trade “unlikely.”?

At a meeting about health care last month, moderates pushed to table climate legislation in favor of a jobs bill that would be an easier sell during the 2010 elections, according to Senate Democratic aides.

“I’d just as soon see that set aside until we work through the economy,” said Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.). ?“What we don’t want to do is have anything get in the way of working to resolve the problems with the economy.”

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http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30984.html

[hobbit709]

1. They're anything but "Moderate"

Moderate in comparison to the lunatic fringe maybe, but not moderate otherwise. What they are is DINOs

[TheBigotBasher]

33. They are a militant GOP tendency.

A Party within a Party, determined to destroy the agenda that they and every Democratic candidate stood on in 2008.

[sandnsea]

2. Well that didn't take long

Until we educate the people in those states, we will have problems with whoever is elected from those states.

[flpoljunkie]

3. Why is it always the same Corporadems who line up with the special interests and the Republicans?

[vi5]

4. So they learned their health care lesson well....

..which is "pout and stomp your feet and act like a baby demanding attention and we will give you whatever you want."

And if I hear Lieberman's name anywhere related to this issue working against the democratic position, given that we were all told that the reason he can't be punished by losing his chairmanship is because he's "so pivotal on other issues like the environment" I'm going to be even more pissed than I am now.

[Mass]

5. And it is surprising because? They saw it worked on healthcare. They saw it worked with the

stimulus package. Why should they not try here. 5 senators decide what happens in the US Senate.

[Armstead]

6. Wait -- They'll be blocking Employee Free Choice Act too

[Vinca]

7. What does Leiberman want? That's all that matters.

:mad:

[OHdem10]

8. Can we please identify people accurately. These are Conservative

Democrats. If Politico is identifying them as Moderate, Politco
is showing their own right leaning biases.

[Prism]

9. And this is why appeasement never works n/t

[AllentownJake]

10. Cap and Trade is bullshit anyway

It is another one of the "New Democrat" solutions to a problem by partnering with Big Business to try to get permission to solve a real problem.

The answer to the problem is relatively simple, the political will for it is non-existent due to the money changers on K-Street.

You tariff goods that are imported from foreign nations that don't have our labor and environmental standards and you regulate business at home. You don't create a bullshit derivative product designed by Enron based on nothing.

[MH1]

12. Forget cap and trade for a minute, but hypothetically, given any problem, is it better

to get a partial solution than nothing at all?

[AllentownJake]

13. It won't solve the problem that is the entire point

Like all other new democratic reforms, the problem still exist, and big business gets more money.

Honestly after the past year, do you really want to create another derivative product for Goldman Sachs to play with. Do you honestly think this will solve anything.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. The real solution is green power.

Tariffs are the solution to outsourcing.

[AllentownJake]

15. If you impose strict environmental legislation at home on manufacturing

and another country allows people to dump whatever they want into the atmosphere which is cheaper, logically speaking, business will go with what is cheaper and build plants in those countries.

I made this point to my Tea Bagger cousin yesterday after I showed him pictures of Chinese Manufacturing when he complained about excessive environmental legislation, I pointed to his kids and asked him if he wanted them drinking that water or breathing that air....he shut up.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. I basically agree with you.

Tariffs on imported goods can be used as an environmental incentive/disincentive but their main purpose is to equalize trade standards, thereby removing the appeal of outsourcing and protecting homegrown industry. But you're absolutely correct that they can be used in many creative ways to produce a desired result.

No one is going to buy a $200 t-shirt from China.

[AllentownJake]

19. We need to sell debt to China

So we have a catch 22, in order to service old debt and issue new debt to the Chinese we need to appease them on trade, but in order to pay the debt we need to build our own manufacturing industry.

The Chinese are happy to play this game because the more appeasement on trade they get, the richer they become, and they get interest on our outsourcing of our industry. They take the same view as a Credit Card Company, even if you default 10 years from now, we'll win in those 10 years and your insolvency what effect us that much by than.

Eventually we will have to make a hard choice, which will be temporary painful in the long term interest of the Republic, however our leaders are the type that are incapable of hard choices.

[Zynx]

25. I wish the Chinese debt issue would be framed in the following way:

As they continue to accumulate our assets and treasuries, they obtain a larger and larger claim on our future income as a country. People treat the Chinese accumulation of U.S. Treasuries and other financial assets as an abstraction without truly considering what it means. So long as we continue a path of structural budget and balance of payments deficits, a greater and greater portion of all of our future earnings will transfer overseas.

[Zynx]

22. You're absolutely right.

We need much tighter restrictions on what we import otherwise pollution generation will simply shift to where it is not penalized.

[Zynx]

21. Direct regulation is a great deal more effective.

Economists moan about it creating inefficiencies, but on the other hand they argued that business would actually support cap and trade. I am not joking about this. Every economics professor I had when talking about cap and trade as a method for curbing the externalities of pollution said business would support it. They basically told me that I didn't know what I was talking about when I said I could see how heavy polluters would fight this tooth and nail.

[AllentownJake]

32. College professors who have not spent time in the real world are useless

I learned that while taking accounting, they always seem to take human weakness to benefit oneself out of any equation. Ironic when I saw how they themselves would compete for recognition and act in unscrupulous ways within their own departments.

The good college professors I had, had a strong understanding of the real world.

[northernlights]

28. +1

couple that with serious effort to get solar on every south-facing roof and windmills in every windy yard. There's a small windmill supplying electricity to a private home right around the corner from me. And if I'm ever able to sell my current home, I have my eye on a solar cottage. If I get it, I'll add a windmill and hook into the grid to sell my extra electricity.

[OhioBlue]

36. I don't disagree with you on that.

I'm all in favor of legislation to address climate change and environmental issues - but cap & trade is something that I don't really trust will work out well. I remember CATO fellows arguing for it a few years ago on C-Span...

[Imajika]

11. The US public has zero appetite...

..for any serious climate legislation that requires even the slightest bit of sacrifice.

It just isn't going to happen. Period.

When the economy picks up, maybe some mild steps can be taken to address AGW. Even in a good economy though, anything that involves noticeably higher fees and/or taxes, assistance to developing countries in any form of wealth transfer, real changes in behavior, etc, is just not going to get through Congress. Particularly not in an election year.

[Tom Rinaldo]

16. "Give them an inch..." n/t

[Unvanguard]

18. Nothing "moderate" about that. That's extremist insanity that threatens the very future of humanity.

There are times and places for taking stands. This is one of them.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

20. If we're not going to deal with these problems now, then when are we?

:shrug:

Oh, and what exactly are Bayh, et. al trying to do about the economy now? What about all of the conservadems whom drug their feet on HCR? Why didn't they try harder to help finish it up so that we could move onto the economy and other issues? Truth IS sometimes stranger than fiction! :banghead:

It kills me how whenever we get back into power, these "born again deficit hawks" stomp their feet and try to tell us what we CAN'T do now because the policies implemented by the Pukes create fiscal headaches by the time the Dems come back into power. :mad: Unf***ingbelievable!

[Dinger]

23. I Don't Want These punks In My My Party

I'd rather have true Democrats any day.

[IndianaGreen]

24. As long as we continue to vote for these sobs, nothing will change

Blue Dogs should be euthanized!

[TheKentuckian]

26. We're going to get rolled on issue after issue folks

if we don't go all in. This is an issue where incrementalisim ain't going to help (and I'm a general believer in slow but sure progress). What we face here is a real problem that isn't very correctable. The longer we take to actually resolve this the less likely we'll be able to correct the path we are on.

Kicking the can down the road on this is potentially suicide.

[Sebastian Doyle]

27. How long before were mandated to pay for corporate pollution too?

Because you know, once the false "Democrats" get involved, the end result will be the exact opposite of what it should be and reward the corrupt industries involved. Just as this joke called health care "reform".

[Fearless]

29. They're rethug wolves in sheeps clothing... forget them all.

[TheBigotBasher]

30. They are not moderate.

They are a militant Republican tendency operating inside the Democratic Party. A Party within a Party. They need expulsion not rewarding.

[Thrill]

31. He'll drop it. I don't expect him to fight for it

[Teaser]

34. why should any of us care what you expect?

you do something important or something?

[Jennicut]

35. "Moderate", where did that crap idea come from anyway? They are anything BUT moderate.

[Azathoth]

37. Cap-and-trade is a dead issue until the economy improves

Health care reform can be presented to the public as a vital step in rebuilding our economy and ensuring individual Americans' financial stability. The tangible "what does it do for me and why do I need it right now?" aspect is easy to explain. Cap-and-trade does not lend itself to such packaging. It will be pilloried by its critics as an extra financial burden on companies that are already hurting, and that message will resonate with lots of people, particularly those who are hoping companies will start hiring again soon. Environmental issues like this don't sell in the midst of a massive depression.

The truth is that Joe Average doesn't really care about global warming. Sure, in theory, he'd like the planet to stay healthy. But as soon as you put a price tag on that health, as soon as you tell him that he is going to have to contribute, financially or otherwise, his new-found environmentalism instantly evaporates, especially if he's been out of work for a year.

[falcon97]

38. I luv the contrast.

Our children will be paying for this financial debt, yadda yadda!! Global climate change? Ahh, it's just a theory. Paying off debt will not be too terribly important when parts of the planet are uninhabitable. Would be funny, if it weren't sad.

[Overseas]

39. Grovelling again. Gonna go 1% bipartisan on Cap & Trade too, eh?

Olympia Snowe! Ben Nelson! Joe Lieberman!

And are we going to be sure to throw the best options out before we begin discussions on Cap & Trade too?

Are we going to see more dumb fake bipartisan games played with the Health of our Planet just as they were played with the health of our citizenry?

Whoopee.