Where your food comes from... and why it is now

[nadinbrzezinski]

part of the pollution problem.

When most folks think chicken farm, this is what people think off:



Yep, cute and all that. They are young, fuzzy and well in that basket they are all kinds of ahh! (Changed the image for fitting in place sake)

Here is the reality.



By the way, these are free range chickens.



These guys are caged chickens...

The same goes for feed lots and of course pigs. We are no longer doing the small farm shtick... of course the consequence is that we have cheaper food, But think about this... poo... chicken shit does pile up... so does cow shit and pig shit, and any other shit of any animal we eat. Yes, in small quantities cow shit and chicken shit will feed the earth. in large quantities they are industrial level pollutants capable of going into the water table. I just thought it would be a good idea to show folks where most of our food comes from. Oh and as to dead black birds, anybody who believes oh Tyson Foods would let any investigation point to them... is crazy. The AG lobby is that strong.

And yes you too can do something about it. though at this point it mostly makes me feel better. That is look for local farmers and buy from them. But it is not doing much yet, and cheap food means this crap. Oh and those chicken farms... not that most here will remember... chicken at one point was more expensive than steak... why a chicken in every pot as a campaign was so damn popular, and yes populist.

[Lucian]

1. Those are really free range chickens in the second photo?

If so, their conditions are no better than the caged chickens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Yep, they are

I worked in a coup at one time.

[Lucian]

7. They look like they're treated the same way as the caged chickens.

Now it makes me want to be a vegan. I thought free range chickens were treated better than that. I guess I was wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. They are a little better.

They do have more space and can move about. Caged chickens cannot. They also lay more eggs.

[superduperfarleft]

57. It's the difference between a cage and a horribly crowded subway car.

And "free-range" chickens still frequently have to be de-beaked so they don't kill each other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. And roosters are that much more agressive.

:-)

[FedUpWithIt All]

80. Roosters are not kept in the commercial "free range" egg operations.

They use laying pullets and a rooster is not necessary for them to lay.

In a commercial free range meat growing facility, like the one you depicted, Cornish Cross "broilers" are still typically used and they never get anywhere close to maturity before they are slaughtered, not to mention the bird are bred to be so meat heavy that the birds have difficulty standing let along a proclivity for aggression. Broilers are also unable to reproduce on their own due to the breeding for a higher mass of breast meat so there is little likelihood of the need for the roos into sexual maturity (which is when they become more aggressive).

Broilers typically reach butcher weight at 6 weeks. They are referred to as "frankenchickens"

Heritage birds, often rare breeds, are the typical chickens capable of pasturing. Broilers, the breast heavy mushy muscled birds most people claim to prefer, are very rare in this type of setting and due to their fast growth must be fed grain the majority of their lives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. In the kibbutz I worked they did have roosters

and there was one in particular that stood by the door every morning... talons were his preferred method to say good morning.

It was an egg laying facility. It was also experimental. They had low density free range, high density free range, and battery cages. They were running tests to see what setting led to better eggs. So on top of picking up cartons, we had to keep track of how many eggs came from each hen house.

For the record low density hens were the "happiest" and produced the best eggs. He was the rooster in that hen house too.

[mimitabby]

89. they never live long enough to be aggressive roosters

they are slaughtered long before they are mature.

[FedUpWithIt All]

96. And most broilers *can't* even survive to a mature age.

They often die from heart failure, a severely compromised immune system or an inability to physically move if allowed to grow more than a few months due to their extreme tissue growth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. not where I worked

It was a kibutz and egg laying facility. It was also experimental, working with the Technion. So they had two high density houses, two low density and two battery cages. We counted eggs, We counted thousands of eggs. One of the roosters in the low density hen house was very agressive... and literally would talon you when you walked in every morning. We had all but cute names for him.

[FedUpWithIt All]

77. That is commercial free range.

Many small farmers free range their birds outside, scratching for insects and grasses. But these have to be bought in much smaller quantity and often directly from the farm itself. Also, with so much of the legislation making it very difficult for small farmers to comply with the regulations better suited to industrial ag, the small farmers sometimes only sell the live birds and the buyer is responsible for finding a processor for them.

Eggs are often a different matter. I am now getting at around three eggs a day from our four hens. Most people who raise chickens tend toward much larger (truly) free ranged flocks and often are actively seeking people to purchase their surplus of eggs. Many people simply give them away or use them as feed when they cannot find people who are interested.

This summer we will be up-sizing our flock and we have already been seeking out a reliable market for them.

Our free ranged Buff Orpingtons.



And some of our eggs

[Liberal_in_LA]

12. oh no!!!!!!!!! No more free range eggs for me. :-(

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. They are actually happier

the farm I worked at had both... and they tested this for productivity. Free Range actually produce more and better eggs. Which is scary on all it's own.

[Recursion]

21. Find a farmer and buy directly from him/her

That's really the only way to have a good idea of where your food is coming from.

[gateley]

26. Nad responded to my post about always getting free-range organic eggs, and

she said that organic is closer to what we want. That organic fed chickens are allowed to roam somewhat. So get the organic! Pricey (I was pissed when my brother ate a couple of mine :7) but so worth it, and I know you agree.

[Recursion]

30. It's important not to get hung up on the term "organic"

That mostly has to do with what they're fed (if animals) and what pesticides and fertilizers are used (if plants).

Honestly, if you are buying a carton of a dozen eggs from a retail food store, you're not going to get anything better than the "free range" picture above; not even for the $8 dozen at Whole Foods. If you want eggs from chickens that have been actually running around eating grass and bugs (and you'll never believe how bright yellow those yolks are until you get some) then you really have no choice but to find a farmer that sells directly to the consumer. And a lot of those guys don't have the time, money, or even desire to get officially "certified organic"; Joel Salatin (the farmer from "Omnivore's Dilemma") calls this kind of farm "organic by neglect", and recommends it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. They are also better for you

with higher levels of vitamin D and the current marketing... Omega 3.

Every local farmers market will have at least one egg purveyor... and the consumer needs to know what questions to ask. Just because it is at the market don't mean jack.

There is more, smaller eggs have thicker shells, less breakage, last longer. Oh and younger hens too.

[Recursion]

35. Bingo. Meet the person.

And ask yourself, "would I eat something this person is responsible for?"

I love the way the taste and color of eggs changes over the course of the year, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. And the color of the shell

not just white and brown... and the shell don't matter to the taste of the product either.

[gateley]

36. I understand that organic applies to the feed so that's always a consideration

because I'm of the belief everything else is crap to make the feed/food/whatever cheaper and more profitable.

And thanks to this thread, I'm definitely going to find local egg suppliers. And thanks for fact that lots of the small guys don't feel the need to be certified.

And I'm heading to amazon NOW to buy Omnivore's Dilemma. I've been meaning to get it but kept forgetting - thanks for the reminder!

[Kali]

32. there could be organic cage raised

look for pastured, or better yet grow your own!

[appal_jack]

87. Did the chickens throw-off their oppressors?

Just teasin' you Ms. Brzezinski! But I suddenly have an image of you in my head, using your Navy experience to help some chickens agitate for a new regime. A fowl plot indeed!

k&r for a worthwhile post. Small farms do exist, and are on the rise again. But that 'rise' has barely crested ~2% of the food produced in the nation at present.

:hi:

-app

[Recursion]

19. Yes. If you want what most people think of as "free range" look for "pastured"

Ask around at local farmers' markets and you'll probably find a farmer that sells directly to the consumer; that's about the only way you're going to get eggs from reasonably healthy chickens. (They might also have dairy and meat.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Eggsactly... I buy from a local farmer

and boy he was amazed at the detailed questions...

[gateley]

39. Ha! Good for you! nt

[MA Mom]

98. Agree - free range commercial is meaningless

According to the USDA, in order to be classified as "free range" the hen must have access to the outside for 5 minutes/day. The hen doesn't even have to leave the cage to actually go outside if it doesn't want to; it just needs to be allowed access (whether it chooses to use it or not).

Also, commercially sold USDA graded eggs are soaked in bleach and/or lye before being packaged. Including organic eggs.

Pastured local eggs are the way to go.

This is actually a pet peeve of mine. I have a friend who insists on buying only the "free range" organic eggs at the grocery store, and she is all smug and sanctimonious about it. And she won't go near our local farmers pastured eggs, just because they are not certified organic (because how do you certify a wild bug that the hen eats as being organic?). Irritates the heck out of me. I have tried to educate her, but she's so smug about how much of a better mother she is than anybody else because she buys only organic, that I've given up trying. (But I can vent to you guys about it here!)

She's the same with milk, she'll buy commercially mass-produced "organic" milk in BPA-lined cartons, but won't buy the small-batch hormone-free local milk in glass bottles because it isn't certified organic. I guess it wouldn't irritate me so much if she didn't then brag about it on facebook (or wherever) with judgmental comments about "why would any decent mother ever feed their child non-organic milk" (which of course entirely ignores the issue of not everybody being able to afford to shop at whole foods, but that's for another thread).

Sorry for getting off topic. I just had to get that off my chest.

[FedUpWithIt All]

100. Welcome to DU MA Mom

:hi:

I think time and discussions like this will eventually expose those operations which are largely just more of the same.

[Catherina]

31. Not much better. Glad to see this and learn though. Shocked as you are. n/t

[flvegan]

2. Go vegan!

:popcorn:

:hide:

[Recursion]

44. The ad says it best...

[superduperfarleft]

55. Nah, I'd rather twist myself into ethical pretzels and spend a mint at Whole Paycheck.

That's much, much less complicated. :sarcasm:

[flvegan]

68. Ethical Pretzel would be a great band name.

[superduperfarleft]

73. !

[county worker]

3. Don't eat it.

Of course the fact that I don't eat meat doesn't do much of anything to improve the situation.

Riding a bicycle doesn't do much for the environment when most people don't ride bikes but like the bike rider, I feel better because of my choices.

Others do what they want, that's ok with me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. that is why I pay more to buy from local farmers

[BrklynLiberal]

4. O. MI. GAWD.!!!

They can call those free-range chickens??????????

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yes they do...

The local farmer I at times get my chicken from raises them in a way much closer to what people think of free range. But he is also doing sustainable and all that. His chickens start at 15 bucks, instead of five to seven at the store.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. People are as brainwashed about consumer products as they are about political issues...

Mass media lies to them/us about everything...

[BrklynLiberal]

11. Welcome to the Chicken and Egg Page!

Please help us spread the word — eggs from hens raised on pasture are far more nutritious than eggs from confined hens in factory farms.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/eggs.aspx


Free Range vs. Pastured: Chicken and Eggs
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Relish/Free-Range-Versus-Pastured-Chicken-And-Eggs.aspx

"World's Best Eggs'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmRlYLpz1jw

Meet Real Free-Range Eggs
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/2007-10-01/Tests-Reveal-Healthier-Eggs.aspx

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[villager]

14. It's all part and parcel of withdrawing our economic support from The Machine

All of us need to do it, at whatever level we can...

[molly77]

49. villager

Wish we could k&r comments because you nailed it.

[Maru Kitteh]

94. +1

[Richard D]

16. Anyone who has raised chickens

at home will tell you that they are intelligent and very affectionate creatures (if they were handled by humans since hatching).

It's a great stain on our "civilization" that animals are treated like this.

I'm not a vegan, but I eat animal food very infrequently, and when I do I pay the extra for something that is raised as close to it's natural life as possible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. My mom tells stories of her pet chicken

and yes, they are fairly intelligent. Just like the parrots, who actually love their meat products too. They eat meat in the wild anyway.

[gateley]

18. Those are free range chickens??? I always make it a point to buy free-range eggs,

organic, so I DO envision happy hens laying Monsanto feed-free eggs. What does it take to qualify as Free Range? I thought each chicken had to have a little patch of land?

I really do want to support my local producers so I will have to look into that more. All the farmers markets I've been to (usually held in a neighborhood on weekends) I've only seen fruits, vegetables, jams, stuff like that -- never eggs. So I'll go a step further and try to locate where I can buy eggs. When my mother was growing up (early 1900's) I THINK she said they had a chicken or two -- in Boston!

And what an interesting factoid about the chicken in every pot slogan!

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. If they are organic they are closer to what you think

as organic are allowed to range outside a pen

Not organic, not so much.

Why all the labeling laws have to be rewritten, fat chance, to remove the confusion.

[Recursion]

23. Not necessarily

You could (conceivably, at least) have an organic chicken that was cage-raised, for that matter, if its feed were appropriate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. That is why we need to have all the labeling laws

rewritten.

For the moment farmers markets is where I get my eggs.

[gateley]

25. So how are these chickens pictured able to qualify as Free Range? And, I heard

something about the regulations being rewritten with the result being even LESS information for the consumer.

I don't understand how it's gotten this bad. We have no say over anything. Well, yes I do -- Money. It's always the fucking money. :grr:

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. You want the best chickens and eggs, this is what you look for

pastured chickens.

http://www.localharvest.org/organic-chicken.jsp


And yes it's gotten really bad and it is high time Americans learn the truth, organize and force a change. That ain't gonna happen if I post something on the interwebs... unless people get really angry about it and are willing to take to the streets and mostly STOP buying from Tyson foods, for example. Problem is Tyson can sell you really cheap chickens. Pastured fellas are anywhere from three to five times as much. I've paid as much as 25 for a medium bird.

[gateley]

28. I think the majority of Americans STILL think that the food they get at the

grocery store is safe and healthful. So it's up to us to watch our own backs and try to spread the word - so thanks again, Nad.

And thanks for the info on "pastured" -- gotta look into that.

[Kali]

51. your grocery store food IS safe and healthful

of course ti could be perfect, but you have to be willing to either pay for it or raise it yourself

a little perspective and maybe humility might be useful - there are a HELL of a lot of people on this planet that would be most happy to have the crap we waste and throw away, much less our evil mass-produced meat and vegetables. Do what you can, but the fact is our food is pretty damn safe and inexpensive. Not very many can afford to eat from organic yuppie markets and many can't even afford walmart or such.

[gateley]

61. I have Hepatitis C and I don't want to further assault my liver with chemicals and

additives that our FDA deems "safe" -- look at aspartame, high fructose corn syrup.

Like health care, I don't believe our best interests are being served, only the for-profit corporations.

So much of the food reminds me of pet food -- added vitamins and minerals because the processing depletes them and they have to add them to get it back to "healthful".

I agree that the grocery store food will sustain you, but as for being safe and healthful, I disagree. When I went on a totally organic diet, I could FEEL the difference. I honestly wondered if I'd ever felt that good, even as a teenager. That's lacking when I get most of my food from the grocery stores. I don't care what they tell us, I have first-hand proof that we're not getting the real food as nature intended.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. As a diabetic I do use aspartame

as well as the new Truvia sweeteners.

But we are putting much on the environment we have no clue how it works.

All these insecticides ensure food production, but we are going to pay a price for it. Something about no free lunch.

[gateley]

70. If you were here I'd shake you, Nad. Aspartame is pretty bad stuff, and Truvia

has, of course, tweaked the stevia to make it cheap to manufacture and profitable, but that's what we'd expect from Coke.

I'd highly recommend stevia by Sweet Leaf. It's pure and it doesn't have the bitter taste some brands have. Here's a link.

http://www.sweetleaf.com/

I use their packets and liquid and when I was lazy and bought another brand from the grocery store, I always regretted it and went out to buy Sweet Leaf before I even used up the other stuff.

[cali]

34. well you may be able to afford $25 for a medium sized chicken

but most people cannot.

[Recursion]

38. Buying clubs can usually help bring prices down

Whether informal or a full-on CSA (these exist for meat, poultry, eggs, dairy, and even fish, not just vegetables).

I can get a broiler for $3.75 per pound and a stewer for $2.75 per pound.

[cali]

74. the past few years, a friend and I have bought chicks

and then have them butchered at summer's end. I also have cochins for laying. I realize that's not practical for most people and CSAs are a great alternative.

[MineralMan]

40. $25 for a single chicken?

That's not happening in my household. I just don't have that kind of cash for a meal. FFS!

[Recursion]

42. Market price is always high

That's where buying clubs and CSA's come in.

[MineralMan]

48. I can buy a freaking COOKED chicken for $5.

There is no way on this planet I'm paying $25 for a chicken. That's where this whole organic, "natural" stuff goes so far wrong. Only a small segment of the population can afford to eat that way. It's great if you have unlimited resources, but that's not the position most people are in. So, it's useless information for most people.

It's fine to say it's better for the chicken. Frankly, the welfare of the chicken is far from most people's minds when they shop for food. Any chicken they buy is dead, so it's not that much of an issue for most people. Yes, I know how chickens are raised for sale in the supermarkets. I'm aware of that when I shop, and I don't eat a lot of chicken. But, there's no way 99% of the population will pay $25 for a chicken. It just isn't happening. If that's how much they're going to cost, then the whole thing's aimed at the moneyed set, who can chow down on their chicken while feeling really good about themselves for eating a dead chicken that lived a better life.

Uff da!

[superduperfarleft]

54. "But, there's no way 99% of the population will pay $25 for a chicken."

Correct, and that's why meat products are so heavily subsidized and people act like it's perfectly normal to eat meat at every meal. Because they are artificially cheap.

Until people start realizing that meat production costs far more than what they're paying (to local communities, to the environment, and the animals), factory farms will ALWAYS exist, regardless of the limousine liberals than can assuage their consciences by paying an obscene amount of money for one dead animal that could easily feed my family (minus the cats, obviously) on a totally vegan diet for a week. (edit: I meant the amount of money could feed my family, not the meat. Oops. :) )

Of course, don't get me started on the disconnect between a consumer and his cheap, readily available clothing, electronics, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. well people think it is normal to eat meat

with every meal because they have been told such.

Today we had steak. I bought one seven oz for two adults and two parrots.

three to four oz is an appropriate portion once a week.

We do a meatless day at least once a week... (and the conure protest, he likes his meat damn it!... actually it is hysterically funny how he protests... and he's gone from seed only to pretty much eats whatever I feed him. Ah pet food, the other scam)

But reality is we don't have to eat meat every meal, and we will be fine. Actually Americans eat too much meat when they do. The UN has actually proposed that we need to have a new way of eating, for global weather change reasons as well. This means we really need to reduce our collective consumption of meat... and make it more a side dish, instead of the main course.

Hell tomorrow for meatless day... ah chile rellenos... tasty, filling and all that.

[uppityperson]

62. $25 for a chicken to eat? Why? In the fall plenty of people are giving away young roosters

around here. Once those fluffy chicks mature and turn into roosters, people try keeping some and end up giving a bunch away come late fall through spring. I know because I've been there when straight run turned out to be 3/4 males.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Because I live in a damn city

and the closest farm is an hour away. So no, people do not raise their own chickens where I live. Ironically that is the way MOST of the world lives now. Yes we have crossed that threshold where 51% of the world's population lives in cities.

[uppityperson]

66. There is that. I've not lived in that large of a city, but have in smaller ones

where I could get out in half an hour or so. Come visit and I'll feed you fresh from the chicken eggs and still screaming spuds from the garden.

[Recursion]

29. "Free range" basically means "they can stretch their wings occasionally"

And, incidentally, food regulations favoring large industrial ag concerns go back to the early 20th century; this is nothing new.

[gateley]

41. But I think it's been getting worse as technology keeps marching on to be able

to make things cheaper, more profitable, and fuck the health aspects!

[superduperfarleft]

56. It's getting worse because people keep demanding large quantities of cheap meat.

Same with anything...

[FedUpWithIt All]

81. In most places it means they have "access" to outside.

The size of the outdoor area is not specified not is the necessity for the birds to actually be allowed outside.

[Pathwalker]

43. My son raises chickens in two henhouses. During the summer,

they are allowed to run around the yard, but they stay in the yard, and return to the henhouse every night of their own choice. Each chicken has their own nest, and they will only lay their eggs there. They only raise them for the eggs, not the meat, so they follow my son wherever he goes.
The eggs are very tasty, but a little sulphurous. The taste is so much different - I can't even describe it. VERY yellow!

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. That is because they are allowed to peck outside

the eggs I buy from my local farmer's market are from similar conditions. They are a little smaller, but oh so damn tasty.

[Pathwalker]

47. The eggs aren't all the same color, either. Or size, you're right.

They always bring a fresh dozen when they come to visit. It's like the difference between a potato bought in a plastic bag from the store, and a potato you just dug up, washed and cooked. Or, a tomato you just plucked from the vine, rinsed and ate and the one raised in a hot house that you bought from the store. You can TASTE the freshness. Oh, dear, now 'm hungry.
:hi:

[Obamanaut]

86. Many years ago, before we built the house where we now live, we

had several Araucana hens, that lay mostly bluish colored eggs. There could be some variation in the shade depending on what they had been eating. The yolk always seemed to be a much deeper yellow than store eggs.

Nice birds, followed us around, but other creatures finally got the last one and we never replaced them. That was the early 80's, and when we built our current house in '83 we decided against more chickens.

[Kali]

46. chicken and hogs are usually raised from day 1 in confinement

this is NOT true of cattle. the vast majority of beef cattle are raised on range or pasture. they then spend their "finishing time" in feedlots.

I don't like the conditions commercial chickens are raised in, but you know it is pretty expensive to raise them on pasture. In addition both chickens and cattle will actively CHOOSE to sit around in a "dirty" coop or pen at times even with free access to miles of open country. I can look out my window right now and see 20 head of cattle and half a dozen horses laying around in the corrals - gates are open and they can go wherever they want (and will later this evening when they get up to go graze) so I am not quite as appalled as some seeing those kinds of pictures for the first time. I have no real experience with pigs so won't comment (though I have heard stories about their propensity to cannibalism even in open conditions)

it is pretty unfortunate that most people only have the vaguest idea where their food comes from (witness people here buying cage-free or organic and still not knowing much about conditions), much less how completely uninvolved they are in the production of it. There are a LOT of flaws, but you know, we feed a hell of a lot of people pretty well, and pretty damn safely even for those flaws. Imagine how the ignorance of food origins would translate to abilities in self-sufficiency. I imagine plenty of illness and neglect/cruelty would occur indeed. Not to mention abject starvation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. The point is that most folks have no clue where their food

comes from.

Many still believe the farms are like Old McDonald's place. Also given the pollution problems and yes toxic waste (seen how chicken shit is removed by the way)... it is not sustainable.

Problem is... with a 6.8 B population we have little choice, the other side... if we did... the population crash would make our heads spin so fast it is not even funny. Some experts have even posited the collapse could reduce the GLOBAL population to about a billion. It will happen if we do not find ways to make this sustainable and REDUCE world population on our own accord as well.

But yes, most Americans should be made very aware how their food is produced.

[Kali]

53. I think most Americans are like men and birth

if they knew what was involved and actually had to do it, there wouldn't be a population or obesity problem :rofl:

[superduperfarleft]

52. Thank you for pointing out the myth that is "free-range" or "organic."

All "free-range" means is that the chickens aren't cooped up, four to a battery cage the size of a piece of notebook paper, so tight that they can't even stretch their wings once in their lives.

There is no "humane" way to kill and eat an animal, or to treat an animal as a milk or egg-laying machine. But meat and eggs taste good, so... :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Organic does have a real meaning

and I do buy it... but I pay premium for it. That said, yes we feel better and with more energy.

No, I don;t think it is a placebo effect either.

[Ozymanithrax]

65. In trying to grow enough food to feed an exploding population...

cheaply, there are trade offs. Those of us who can afford to look for alternatives and buy alternatives are lucky. Some are forced to consider Top Ramen a meal three days a week. The urban poor will be unable to get to alternative stores, for the most part.

At one time chicken was more expensive than steak. You can thank Herbert Hoover for changing that with his "A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage" promise. Both came true, eventually. Both of those promises have cause enormous damage to our world and changed our culture beyond recognition.

Going back to gentler ways of growing food will not likely have a high enough yeild to feed the majority of the population.

[Terry in Austin]

69. ...is like trying to find enough wood to feed a growing fire

As food populations grow, feeder populations grow. And vice versa.

[Ozymanithrax]

71. The question is how sustainable is that growth...

Overtime, we humans have muscled out other species that are of no use because we can not eat them, or at least not grow them in sufficient numbers to feed the population.

At some point, if we are going to talk about sustainable agriculture we will have to define the limits of population. That is not a comfortable conversation, and flies in the face of individual liberties.

[uppityperson]

67. k&r for explaining what "free range" is.

[FedUpWithIt All]

79. That is "commercial free range"

I feel a distinction should be made because the OP did not make it.


This is small scale free ranging.




I thought you also free ranged your birds.

[uppityperson]

92. Thank you, that is what I meant, Commercial Free range.

I do. Those are lovely hens

[FedUpWithIt All]

93. Thank you. They started laying last month. I thought it was never going to happen.

:eyes: Silly gals.

I always enjoy your posts over in Rural :hi:

[uppityperson]

97. Ours just started again, got through another egg drought

Thanks, I like that forum. I got rid of Danny the spare rooster and Arnie my old gentle giant is much happier.

[FedUpWithIt All]

99. Glad there is peace in the chicken yard.

:)

We only have the one, a Buckeye just started to crow around the time the girls started laying (he is run with the three orps and an older sex link). We're due to pick up a small Buckeye flock (5 hens)in the spring that has an established roo but i'm really hoping they'll each stick to their own group of girls and leave each other in relative peace. Here's hoping...:toast:

[uppityperson]

102. He'd been hiding in the nest boxes with the hens. Now is out and about

and has a nice tail again. We had kept Danny since Arnie was looking peaked, thinking he'd be a replacement but ended up being the problem. The names? "Twins" movie.

[FedUpWithIt All]

103. Ahh yes "twins"

:-) Fun.

We have Basil. The hens are Maisy, Pollito, Clementine and Mother Clucker. They are joined by the goats Tilly and Rufus, the dog Watson, the cats Marmalade and Monticello and the rabbits Cleophus and Quimby. Our family gets a big kick out of the naming process. :silly:

[Obamanaut]

72. The 'free range' chickens in the photo are more likely chickens that are

being raised to eat - KFC, grocery chains, etc. The ones in the cages are likely egg laying hens.

The waste from modern 'chicken houses' is processed into a compost/fertilizer and sold to farmers. The mixture goes through an automated composted/mixed via augur - waste in one in, compost out the other.

[tabasco]

75. I'm getting really sick of eating meat.

I'm a lifelong meat eater but anymore, it's starting to disgust me.

[eridani]

76. If you live near a consumer co-op, you can usually get information--

--directly from them about where your food comes from. PCC in the Puget Sound area has farm tours, and farmers often take the time to come around and do presentations and answer questions.

[FedUpWithIt All]

78. The chickens in the OP are being raised as free range by a commercial operation.

What most people are thinking of when they hear free range is pasture raised birds and this simply not done on the scale typically needed for commercial sale. Small local farmers usually DO free range their birds on pasture or at the very least in protected open air runs.

That is, i believe, the point being made by the OP. We need to start being vigilant about our food and where it comes from, how it is raised and the impact it has on the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. Free range is what is depicted in the photo

pasture chickens are a different matter, usually a small time operation too.

[FedUpWithIt All]

110. I raise chickens and most others who do as well use the term free range

for any birds we allow to run without fencing.


http://www.backyardchickens.com/search-forum.php?cx=partner-pub-9473214521653913%3Abil3pz2p90m&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=free+range&sa=Search&siteurl=www.backyardchickens.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php#1266


What the image you posted showed was a commercial free range operation. This is far afield of the typical small farmer free ranging their birds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. My understanding is that the movement is starting to use

pasture chickens... precisely because the industrial side of the fence, uses free range to the great confusion of the end consumer.

http://www.localharvest.org/organic-chicken.jsp

And given the nature of the thread, in my humble opinion it would be good. Most of us city dwellers have never been close to any chicken that happens to be clucking.

(I know I worked in a kibutz at a time, but I am not normal)

[bvar22]

82. Our birds thank you for this post....K&R

The OP is one of the reasons we moved to The Woods in 2006 and started producing our own food.
We have fallen in love with our chickens.
They are much more intelligent and social than we expected.
They are now a part of our daily entertainment.
We will never be able to go back to those anemic supermarket eggs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Beautiful birds too

it is amazing just how intelligent birds are... some groups even more than others.

Experiments from them science folks have also identified about 35 types of clucks your little guys use to communicate with each other.

My little cannibals love their chicken though... our eggs come from a local farmer though.

(Two conures)

[MadHound]

83. Speak for yourself

That's one reason why my wife and I moved out to the country, to grow our own food, and to get the food we didn't raise direct from farmers.

We raise our own veggies and fruits, and either buy or swap with our farming neighbors to get our chicken, beef and pork, all of which are truly organically, free range raised.

Not everybody can do this, but a lot more people could go a lot further than they currently do.

[stuntcat]

84. mixed up as I am, I haven't eaten meat in years

I don't have that much to be proud of, I definitely ain't the brightest bulb, but my footprint will be light, that's good to me.

[snooper2]

85. looks pretty efficient

Chickens won't be on the endangered species list anytime soon :P

[slackmaster]

88. I stopped buying that kind of food years ago

What I do buy is considerably more expensive, but it's also a lot better.

[stuntcat]

91. yah.

Good on you!!

The actual price of factory meat is not paid by the consumer who buys it so cheap. It's paid by govt. subsidies & by babies when they grow up in what it's doing to the world.

[mimitabby]

90. not exactly true

meat prices from 1900:
Spring chicken: 7 cents / pound,
beef, 10 cents/pound

Christmas prices (in Morris County, NJ)
from 1910:

Morris County geese, 20/lb
Morris County ducks, .22/lb
Ohio dry picked turkeys, fancy, .28/lb
Ohio dry picked chickens, .22/lb
Sirloin and Porterhouse steak, .16/lb

Chicken 1 lb. 39¢ 1925 New York
Chicken lb. 42¢ 1929 New York
Round Steak 1 lb.40¢ 1920
Round Steak 1 lb. 36¢ 1925
Round Beef Steak 1 lb. 36¢ 1926 Chicago
Round Beef Steaks 1 lb. 43¢ 1925 New York
Round Beef Steaks 1 lb. 51¢ 1929 New York


the fact is, once upon a time, chicken were raised primarily for egg production. Fresh young chickens were a seasonal crop "Spring chicken" not something you'd get a lot of in, say, October or February.
You never ate young pullets (girl chickens)instead you ate young roosters (and you had to be quick because they toughen fast as their hormones come on).
If you had the skill, you could turn your roosters into capons by castrating them. THAT was expensive meat.
When your hens started getting old, you'd call them "stew hens" and slaughter them for soup. Stew hens were never expensive meat.

[FedUpWithIt All]

95. Great post. Limited or seasonal availability and the need to live with are largely forgotten

Most people still have a seasonal shift in cravings, heavier and starchier meals in the autumn and winter and lighter, fresher foods in the spring and summer. If we further develop these natural shifts we could lessen the need for out of season produce transport.

Home food preservation, when things are seasonally available locally, is another largely forgotten skill that would help in this area.

:hi:

[knitter4democracy]

101. Oh, we still have small local farms. I know--I buy from them.

We have small local butchers that buy from local farms that have been in business for over 100 years, and I buy from them when I don't get it directly from the farmer him/herself.

My venison was shot by my farmer brother in his own field, my lamb is from a teacher I work with (as are the eggs in my fridge), and my beef is from a small local farm that had a good deal.

Same with my canned tomatoes that I put up, the peaches in my pantry and freezer, and much of what's in my deep freeze.

It helps if you live in Michigan and the Midwest.

[The_Commonist]

104. Fascinating thread!

Thank you everybody, for sharing your knowledge and experience.

[Liquorice]

108. It's just so horrible. I'm grateful every day that I don't take part in any aspect of that

nightmare. It's just wrong, and those pictures do not come close to illustrating just how bad the meat and egg "industry" really is. How they treat those animals is unimaginable evil.

[Maru Kitteh]

112. Kicking. Just because.