Christian Students Mock Atheist, Say Prayer at Graduation

[Bluebear]

A high school in Louisiana removed a traditional prayer from its graduation ceremony after an atheist student complained. But one of the students put it back in.

Last week Damon Fowler wrote to the principal of Bastrop High School, saying the Christian prayer was a violation of church and state separation laws, and if it wasn't removed, he would contact the ACLU.

The school backed down and removed the prayer from Friday's program and replaced it with a moment of silence.

"I don't think it's a shame I'll be remembered this way, because what I'm doing is right," Fowler told TV station KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana.

However, the student who was supposed to introduce the moment of silence ignored the school's wishes, saying, "I now ask my fellow students who wish to join in to recite the Lord’s Prayer.” Laci Mattice said her faith compelled her to thank God for blessing the class of 2011.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/christian-students-mock-atheist-say-prayer-at-graduation

[Systematic Chaos]

1. Hopefully, god will remind Ms. Messy Lettuce to ask...

...all her customers whether they want to upgrade to a large fries, and how to make correct change at the register for a $20 bill.

[Zenlitened]

75. Bwahaha! "Ms. Messy Lettuce"!!!

:spray:

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Systematic Chaos]

196. I'm a fat bastard myself, but I still gotta laugh at that.

Give her another 15 years and she can be on that Fox show Wife Swap like that huge Perrin lady from the show a few years back. Remember? The Christian nutter who spent a week with a New Age family?

:rofl:

[RainDog]

242. She's a god warrior!

god, I felt so sorry for her daughters and her granddaughter. What a toxic person to have as a mother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHh9ywmo5AE

[Vehl]

2. Religious fundies are a problem everywhere

Its scary to think that they believe they can break any law because their "religion" tells them to do so. A prime example of the sad state the country has been brought to by blind religious fundamentalism.

[ejpoeta]

6. a prime example of what happens when you undermine the authority of schools,

courts, police.... it would be like me going up to the school and in front of my kid yelling at her teacher and telling the teacher not to yell at my kid. what do you think is going to happen. now my kid is going to think she can do whatever she wants and doesn't have to listen to the teacher. that is not only wrong, especially when i expect that teacher to teach my kid something, but it is dangerous. because now my kid will use that as an excuse to do other things they shouldn't be doing because they don't have to listen to anyone... go out and have sex.... drink.... drugs.... lots of stupid things kids do.

[hootinholler]

9. So, you're recommending an even more authoritarian environment?

It depends entirely on what is being shouted as to whether or not intervention is apropos.

-Hoot

[ejpoeta]

10. no. but there are ways to do things that do not need to undermine someone's authority.

for instance. you go and talk to the teacher away from the kid and tell them off. If you try to address the teacher privately and it doesn't work, or if it was some dire circumstance like you came in and the teacher was harming a child or something. but overall, the best thing you can do is try to address the issue in private or at least not in front of the kids.

[hootinholler]

14. I want to be sure...

That reply is different from the first, so now I'm wondering. Do you think the girl broke into spontaneous prayer because the authority of the school was compromised?

-Hoot

[ejpoeta]

17. I'm saying that in general you do not want to undermine the authority of someone like a teacher.

so you would want to address the issue privately and not in front of the child. if parents don't respect someone or their authority then the kids aren't going to either. and in the case of this school it sounds like the kids did what they wanted and didn't care about the school and i will bet their parents had that attitude as well.

[Vehl]

22. yes

But otoh I'm pretty sure most of the admins of the school might be secretly happy that this girl did what she did.

I fail to see the ideological difference between the actions of people who fly their aircraft into buildings cos their religions tells them to ignore laws, and what this girl did.

[backscatter712]

43. Who says she was undermining the school authorities?

My bet is that the principal gave Laci a wink and a nod to do this. You see her getting punished?

Realistically, the ACLU and FFRF need to sue the school and Laci for violating the Establishment clause.

[blondeatlast]

70. I think so too--and I'm a Christian. Prayers for graduation are for convocations,

not the ceremony.

[geardaddy]

80. Yep.

The principal knew this was going to happen. I say sue.

[ejpoeta]

98. i'm going to bet you are right. and i think it is worse. because they are saying that it is ok

to ignore people who do not believe as you do.

[The Nexus]

113. Apparently it happened at graduation

out of school jurisdiction

[cleanhippie]

26. So when the entire audience broke into applause, they were ALL fundies?

[Vehl]

42. If they Applauded? yes

It's not as if they were not aware of the issues surrounding the prayer thing because it was all over the news. Thus the ones who applauded were religious fundies for the simple reason they chose religious authority/preference over secular law.

Fundies come in all shades..from the ones that kill people to those like these..the common thread connecting them is their mutual preference for religious notions/habits/laws over secular one.

[backscatter712]

44. They certainly put their own beliefs in Sky Daddy ahead of rule of law. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

140. Rule of law? How very authoritarian.

Like, boot-licking even.

This little dust-up has all the legs (and offense, for that matter) of a fart in the wind.

[Hugabear]

182. Rule of law is how this country works

Or perhaps you would prefer that local areas be allowed to ignore the rule of law in favor of majority rule? Should we ignore rule of law and allow religion to dictate local policy? Tough shit if you're an atheist or a member of another religion, eh?

[The Nexus]

236. You have to prove the school was behind it.

But if it was just the girl's doing, nothing can be done.

[snooper2]

67. It's scary that a new crop are graduating...hopefully overall numbers keep going down

:)

[hugo_from_TN]

76. She broke a law?

I dont' think so. She has first amendment rights and she used them.

[Union Scribe]

99. Not only that, she's the new Osama bin Laden

according to several posts in this thread.

[Maru Kitteh]

141. lol. AND CALL CONGRESS TOO! n/t

[Bluebear]

143. Awww, are you being persecuted again?

[Union Scribe]

220. Put up or shut up

Show where DUers are saying they're being persecuted. And please consult a dictionary before doing so to avoid looking even more hyperbolic, paranoid, and ignorant than the over-the-top losers in this thread.

[Bluebear]

229. You certainly can identify with losers.

/ignore

[Union Scribe]

231. So that's a no, you cannot back it up.

Don't feel bad, none of the circle-jerkers have been able to. Best you do ignore me, that way you don't see anything that threatens your beliefs. Hey, wait. Claiming things without proof and burying your head in the sand...isn't that what people here accuse the religious of? Lol.

[sarcasmo]

119. +1

[ThatsMyBarack]

193. Well put!

To sum up: "Jesus says I'm above the law."

[Mrs. Ted Nancy]

239. They always leave out the first part of the Lord's Prayer

Matthew 6:5-6:8

5 "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

7 "And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

[LAGC]

253. I wish more Christians would pay attention to that part.

I mean, if Christians did all their worship in private and didn't push it on everyone else, no one would hold them in such contempt.

[Duer 157099]

3. Sorry, but all I can think of when I read that was

"what a little bitch!"

[lynne]

4. That pesky First Amendment -

- Protecting all citizens since 1791.

[cleanhippie]

27. Hmm, I guess it just didn't apply to any of the non-christians graduating that day, huh?

[lynne]

45. Of course it did! Their freedom of speech was not infringed -

- in any fashion just as her freedom of speech was not infringed. The only difference is that she decided to use it.

[cleanhippie]

55. I guess you are missing the part wher she was acting in an official capacity at an official function

that EVERYONE graduating had to attend.

But hey, feel free to rationalize blatant hypocrisy.

[polmaven]

202. And you apparently missed the part

where she said

I now ask my fellow students who wish to join in to recite the Lord’s Prayer.”

(emphasis mine)....She did not try to force EVERYONE to say a prayer...She invited only those who wished to join in to do so.

[LAGC]

254. With the rest of the graduating class held captive audience to boot!

How very tolerant and caring you are to everyone who wasn't a Christian in that crowd...

[Ikonoklast]

57. ...in a way that is illegal.

The school system is now open to suit, and that young woman will now cost the taxpayers of that school system, many of whom may not be of her religion, money out of their pockets.


She broke the law.

I suppose if one of the kids graduated used the microphone to chant the Adhan that would be fine with you, too.

[hugo_from_TN]

77. Wow - you are very confused about constitutional rights.

She absolutely did not break the law.

[Ikonoklast]

136. The ACLU seems to disagree.

I'll side with them on this issue.

[kenfrequed]

93. Establishment clause. Look it up.

Allowing this to become a part of a public ceremony at a public school is estabishing a religion. If they wanted to have a prayer circle elsewhere afterwards of if the individual students churches had some kind of service for graduates, than that would be something else.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stranger81]

46. The First Amendment applies here, but not in the way you think it does.

Try looking at the Establishment Clause.

[Hugabear]

184. Does the 1st Amendment allow teachers to teach creationism?

Let's take it further...does the First Amendment mean that a teacher can lead a voluntary prayer during class?

Or how about judges who like to display the Ten Commandments in their courtrooms, is that their First Amendment right as well?

[Tunkamerica]

5. This is what you get when you type LAci Mattice into google:

[ejpoeta]

7. they get very mad when people compare them to the other religious extremists.

i don't know about religious extremists, but if this is a public school then religion had no place there. period. if they wanted to have a moment of silence and just call it a moment of silence without saying anything about prayer or religion that would have been fine. but if they wanted religion they should have taken it to a church or off of public property. because i am damned sure if someone wanted to do something the 'christians' deemed bad and they complained and then that person did it anyway they would have been harrassed and had some punishment. it is horrible that these religious nuts keep forcing their crap on everyone else and that seems to be ok. freedom of speech has to do with the government. but the fact is that religion has no place in a public school. period.

[Very_Boring_Name]

16. While I don't agree with what she did, she didn't violate the law

There is no law that prevents students from praying as individuals in school. The law prevents prayer from being sanctioned by the school.

[xmas74]

18. That's correct.

Let her do it. It lets her make her point yet also brings her into focus as the subject of ridicule.

This is a case of someone learning to think before they speak. She might think it's a great idea now but will learn about how harsh the world can be when her name and face is everywhere.

[cleanhippie]

30. Wrong.

She can pray anytime she wants to. In this case, she was part of the official ceremony and had an official role to fill. The law does not allow her to take that official capacity and use it to ask everyone to pray.

[Cid_B]

35. I'm trying to imagine the appropriate response by the administration...

Maybe running over and tackling her Terry Tate style... with a slow motion "NOOOOOOO! We're gonna get SUEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!"

_____________________________________

On a side note - Sensitivity Training for Terry Tate - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jplpjCaec

[cleanhippie]

40. The principal should have stood up and cut her off.

And she did it the night before at the Senior Night, too.

It was expected. Everyone knew it was coming.

[Very_Boring_Name]

129. Sorry, but unless she's being paid by the school to speak, she is a free agent

[Selatius]

237. Nope, she used school property (the microphone and speakers) to impose a prayer.

She cannot do that under the First Amendment because that is equipment paid for by taxpayers, including those who may be non-Christian or Atheist.

[trotsky]

31. That's not been officially established either way - but precedent would say she did.

http://www.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/prayer.asp

Can there be prayer at graduation ceremonies? Prayers delivered by clergy at official public school graduation ceremonies are unconstitutional. The fact that a prayer is nondenominational or voluntary does not render it constitutional. The U. S. Supreme Court has not specifically ruled on whether student-initiated nonsectarian graduation prayer is constitutional, and the lower Federal courts disagree on the issue. However, when the Supreme Court ruled in Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe that a district policy allowing student-initiated and student-led prayer before football games was unconstitutional, it effectively ruled-out the possibility that any district policy allowing student-initiated and student-led prayers would be permissible at graduation ceremonies. Moreover, in both Santa Fe v. Doe and Lee v. Weisman, the Supreme Court expressed particular concern that students could be coerced, through pressure from their peers and others, into praying during school events such as football games and graduation ceremonies. This danger exists regardless of whether it is a member of the clergy or a student who offers the prayer.

The Court also emphasized in Weisman and Santa Fe that attendance at major school events like graduation or football games should not be considered "voluntary" even if authorities officially designate it as such. Weekly football games and high school graduation are central parts of student life and students should be able to attend these events without fear of religious coercion. However, baccalaureate services, which are distinct and separate from official graduation ceremonies, may constitutionally include prayers and religious sermons. Such events must be privately sponsored and must not be led or sponsored by school personnel. Any school endorsement of such events should be actively discouraged.

[Blasphemer]

82. In this case, this student seems to have acted alone

The school was made aware of the legal consequences and changed the program but this student acted on her own - civil disobedience if you will. Now, perhaps they can prove that a school official suggested this course of action to her. In that case, I can see the school being sued. But, if she acted of her own free will, I can't see anything happening to her or the school.

[trotsky]

91. Irrelevant.

And to compare that to civil disobedience is a slap in the face of the people who *truly* fought for their rights.

[Goblinmonger]

37. It's the school's microphone

and they can't let the student do that because the student was acting as an agent of the school. If they student had done that in her speech, then there might be some leeway. But since this was done during an official "moment of silence," the student doing it is the same as the school doing it and they should have cut her mike. They have done it with other students that went into what the school deemed obscenity during a graduation speech and won. Certainly it would apply for religious violations as well.

[Very_Boring_Name]

130. Unless she is being paid by the school to speak, she's a free agent

[trotsky]

166. Please look up Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

186. Do you have a SCOTUS decision to back that up

because that isn't true.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Tase her.

No, I'm kidding. That sort of thing is only reserved for REAL criminals, like the guy who holds up the "Bong Hits for Jesus" banner.

[JackRiddler]

68. If this is compared to 9/11, I guess she can be shot in the face and dumped in the ocean, right?

People need to get a grip on the rhetoric.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. Get a grip is right.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but when someone includes "I'm kidding" in their post it generally means they're kidding.

[JackRiddler]

114. I'm referring to the rather odious graphic to which I thought you also responded negatively.

In Post #5, that is.

Nothing against your post.

[Warren DeMontague]

152. Ah, I see it now.

Yeah, that's a little over the top, I would say.

[cleanhippie]

28. Ooooh, thats good! +1!

[JackRiddler]

66. I think that's a very fucked up comparison.

And, in its way, almost totalitarian: as though all that is judged by the state to be in violation of "the law" is equally destructive.

[kenfrequed]

96. Yeah

Comparing fundamentalists attempting to usurp our system and turn the system on their head to exist as a mechanism to push forward their church-state amalgam control system to a bunch of lunatics in the desert outside of our country should never be allowed.

One of them is actually dangerous and letting someone believe that by abrogating the religious rights of others by refuting the establishment clause of the first amendment is a long step towards a fundamentalist hell.

[JackRiddler]

115. Please. I would have been the atheist writing that letter.

And guess what, the school responded by cancelling the official prayer.

What Laci Whatsername did is an act of free speech -- one that I wouldn't have liked.

It's crazy to compare her defiance of the school to lead a recital of the Lord's Prayer to the act of killing 3000 people. (Which did not come from the desert, by the way. Even according to the official story, 9/11 was organized out of apartments in Karachi, Kuala Lumpur, Hamburg and Hollywood, Florida, among other towns.) The caption to the picture in Post #5 evinces a totalitarian approach where all perceived violations of law are equally threatening and criminal.

Not that radical Christian fundamentalists don't pose a threat to democracy, but what she did does not.

[kenfrequed]

257. Right...

It's not like most religious nuts breaking the law or enforcing their beliefs on others don't feel like justified little rebels when confronted with a secular set of rules. Seriously, this is where the shit starts. Look to the growth of the fundamentalist right from the 70's onwards. The lunatic right will lionize this young woman as some kind of hero and there will be imitators who 'rebel' by bringing god spontaneously into secular arenas. Laws will be challenged and they will creep us closer and closer towards fundamentalism.

I cannot take serious someone who cannot see the writing on the walls here.

[RainDog]

79. [phone]

the relationship between the two belief systems is closer than the religious right here cares to admit.

[Union Scribe]

94. Lol. That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever seen.

[Mutley]

137. Please tell me you're not comparing some kid's graduation speech

with the murder of thousands of people.

[eShirl]

8. Sorry Laci, Jesus said you should pray in private, not make a public show of it

People should make an effort to familiarize themselves with their own religion, IMHO.

[Heidi]

11. That can't be true. It's Christians who are mocked and oppressed, not atheists.

Or so I've heard.

[trotsky]

12. It's true.

They have to read less-than-complimentary things about their religion on a public Internet message board. Well, OK, they don't *have* to, they could use the ignore function, the hide thread function, or just simply exercise some willpower and avoid the posts that bother them. But it's very oppressive, you see!

Meanwhile, that whiny little atheist is upset over a forced prayer with the appearance of implicit government endorsement, and being singled out in public for his (lack of) religious beliefs. How DARE he. How VERY DARE he. What's the big deal? :sarcasm:

[Heidi]

13. What I don't understand is why people feel compelled to pray publically.

I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught that one cannot ever be truly prohibited from praying because it's something that can be done silently and that, indeed, the Bible is clear about how one is to pray:

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
-- Matthew 6:6 (KJV)

My point is, people can pray silently, but non-believers cannot "unhear" an oral prayer.

Somewhere along the way in our country, and I think it was after I was out of junior high in the mid 70s but I could be wrong about that, people began making a spectacle of their faith and encouraging their kids to do the same even -- and sometimes especially -- if it made others uncomfortable.

[justiceischeap]

15. I think it coincides with the arrival of mega churches

The explosive growth experienced by these congregations, however, did not begin in earnest until the decade of the eighties (Vaughan 1993:50-51).
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/bookshelf/thumma_article2.html

According to the above, mega churches were founded after 1955... I also think it started with Jim & Tammy Baker... along there.

I too was baptized as a Southern Baptist but as I got older and gayer, I lost any belief in faith that I may have had. I would guess that the extreme christian right is about the same size as the gay community in America but they are a minority that effects much more than other small minorities.

[Heidi]

19. In attempting to scare the hell out of me,

the Southern Baptist Church lost me entirely. Few things in my life have affected me as profoundly as being told by adults (not my parents, but pastors, Sunday school teachers, youth directors, etc.) that I was going to hell from as young as six years old.

[Javaman]

20. Because faux christians believe if they pray harder, louder and more publically...

they are guaranteed a ticket on the cloud express.

It's not the words, it's what's in the heart. but alas, it appears as if many of them have completely forgotten that.

But then again, I'm an atheist and find it all a waste of time and energy.

[Lars39]

41. Uber-conservatives started taking over SBC in the 80's.

With missionaries in the family, I've seen how the SB convention has moved the congregations to the place we are today. :(

[RainDog]

51. because it's not about the prayer - it's about coercion

the southern baptists have taken "the great commission" to the point that they think they must force their beliefs on others with no respect to anyone else's pov.

they think they're doing a good thing by doing this - what they don't realize is how repulsive this becomes to so many when it occurs over and over and over again.

I had an "a-ha" moment in my life when I was a kid and traveled to other nations. I saw hari krishnas forcing themselves on others to share their beliefs and I recognized the religious upbringing from my youth in them. I don't see any difference between the two actions by two different religious beliefs, beyond one group shaving parts of their heads and wearing robes while the other wears polyester suits and sports helmet hair.

[blondeatlast]

72. Presbyterian here--and I've wondered the same thing.

I often pray in stressful situations--but I've never known a single person to notice I was doing it, much less mention it.

and about making it a public spectacle--absolutely. It's rude and revolting.

[AsahinaKimi]

97. The thing is...

Religions like Christianity require their people to go out and convert or bring in people to convert to their religion. Their belief is, if "heathens" hear the "word of God", then they might think about becoming one. I can't tell you how many times, when I was in Los Angeles, that I was literally chased down the Street by a fundamentalist, Quoting the bible, telling me I should change my heathen ways as a Buddhist. They would nearly get in my face.. and they believed it was their DUTY to do so.

When I lived in Salt Lake City for a brief period of time, I had Mormon missionaries showing up at my door nearly each week, asking me if I had heard "the gospel of Jesus Christ".. I was so glad to return home to California.

Buddhists and perhaps, (though I don't know for sure) Hindus do not go about trying to convert the masses. You either are...or you are not. If you want to be, thats up to you, but we don't chase you down the street to the point of border line harassment, trying to get you to "JOIN US!!".

I guess its a historic thing.. because in Early Japan, the first visitors to NIPPPON were Catholic Missionaries.. who ended up giving up trying to convert the Japanese people. Even in the early days of Japan, Buddhists had a hard time trying to win over practicing Shintoists... so you can imagine what the Christians faced... thats why there are less then 1% Christians in Japan.

[raccoon]

190. Tell us, please, what did the Japanese do to discourage them? It must have been pretty effective!

"because in Early Japan, the first visitors to NIPPPON were Catholic Missionaries.. who ended up giving up trying to convert the Japanese people. "

[AsahinaKimi]

233. Yes it was very effective

Under Hideyoshi and then under the succeeding Tokugawa shogunate, Catholic Christianity was repressed and adherents were persecuted. During these times, many Christians were killed in Japan, some by crucifixion; most famously, the twenty-six martyrs of Japan were tortured and crucified on crosses outside Nagasaki to discourage Christianity in 1597. Following a brief respite that occurred as Tokugawa Ieyasu rose to power and pursued trade with the Portuguese powers, there were further persecutions and martyrdoms in 1613, 1630, and 1632. By this point, after the Shimabara Rebellion, the remaining Christians had been forced to publicly renounce their faith. Many continued practicing Christianity in secret, in modern times becoming known as the "hidden Christians" (隠れキリシタン kakure kirishitan). These secret believers would often conceal Christian iconography within closed shrines, lanterns or inconspicuous parts of buildings. For example, Himeji Castle has a Christian cross on one of its 17th-century roof tiles, in place of a mon, indicating that one of its occupants was a secret Christian.Drawn from the oral histories of Japanese Catholic communities, Shusaku Endo's acclaimed historical novel "Silence" provides detailed fictionalised accounts of the persecution of Christian communities and the suppression of the Church.~~Wikipedia

Eventually it became very "Bad Luck" to convert to Christianity. If a missionary goes to Japan today, many Japanese will bow politely, and walk away, rather fast.

[RainDog]

50. you pegged it n/t

the ignore function is here for a purpose. I use it - I don't even know about some of the people who post here unless something they post happens to land on the greatest page - and I can't read it unless I un-ignore them - and I usually do not choose to do that.

sometimes when they comment on something I say I'll bother to find out what it is, but since I already know how they react - again, I usually don't bother to reply.

those who are offended by others who don't respect their beliefs have the choice to do the same thing.

...but choice seems to be a problem for them and that's the crux of the issue...

[JoeyT]

118. Not to mention how much he's inconveniencing them

by forcing them to send him death threats. Which is apparently OK with many of the Christians here.

"He oppressed me by making me waste my ink and paper threatening to kill him! Waaaahh!"

[tekisui]

21. Christian idiots trying to force feed their brand of stupid down everyone's throats.

I get so sick of it. They wouldn't be so obnoxious if they weren't so adamant in trotting their stupidity and judgment for all to see.

[Arugula Latte]

144. Also, they seem so insecure and in need of confirmation of their beliefs.

Deep down you know many of them have an inner voice screaming: "This is all bullshit!" They go to great lengths to quash their doubts and embrace "faith." And faith is believing what you know ain't so, as Mark Twain pointed out.

[Odin2005]

23. Asshole fundy nuts, all of them!

They should be ashamed of themselves.

[Fumesucker]

24. Ah, but don't forget the frantic attacks on Christians here on DU..

Perspective...

[trotsky]

29. Frenzied!

Frenzied, I tell you!!! The horror!

[Warren DeMontague]

60. It's like a feeding frenzy

but with helpless Christians surrounded by mean Atheist Sharks.

[fascisthunter]

108. with lasers on our heads!!!!

[Arugula Latte]

148. The word "god" written on DU acts like blood in the water

Then we gather and begin our crazed thrashing and limb severing!

[justiceischeap]

34. You know what I find funny about this statement?

Now you know how us homos feel...

[Goblinmonger]

38. Actually a U of Minn study found

that atheists are the least like minority in the US. So solidarity, my brother!

[justiceischeap]

39. Fist bump! nt

[Warren DeMontague]

59. It's important to remember who the REAL victims are.

Christians who are subjected to mocking, bigoted, bullying hate speech, like "I don't believe in God".

:eyes:

[polmaven]

207. How about

speech like intimating that a teenage girl who invited those "who wished to join in" to say a prayer will next be flying an airplane into a building? Is that hateful enough for you?

[RainDog]

216. yeah, it works for me

because it's called hyperbole, or exaggeration for effect.

it's a common figure of speech in the English language and the symbols that convey the same to indicate a correlation between two things that may not be exactly the same but whose underlying philosophies exhibit many of the same characteristics.

I like to use the phrase "talibornagains" b/c, like the taliban, too many fundies want to make their religion the religion of the state.

it's a matter of degree when a religion thinks it can force the state to prohibit health care services to females b/c of their objection to 3% of those services that go to a procedure that that religious group finds offensive (i.e. planned parenthood and the talibornagains at this time) when no one is forcing them to use such services - and when, in fact, such services are used by poor women for things like screenings for cervical cancer, breast cancer, etc.

they think they have the right to decide health care for females b/c of their religion.

that's not their end game, however, as a look at Palin and other right wing pols indicate.

which makes them an enemy of the American people.

that's hyperbole - but I mean it.

[polmaven]

224. Some of the posts

to which I was referring go way, way beyond hyperbole. A teenage girl, at her high school graduation, is no where NEAR a "terrorist" because she invited those who WISHED to say the Lord's Prayer to do so - and you know it.

Posts like #5 are beyon the pale and exemplify hate rhetoric. I find it absolutely unacceptable.

[RainDog]

241. she was doing it as a fuck you to the one student who asked that his beliefs be respected

in an area of the country in which this sort of behavior among the people of the town after he did this (death threats, his parents have kicked him out of the house, the spokesperson for the school made it plain he was costing the school for reprinting commencement bulletins) - and then this girl says... "wishes" to pray - as tho that makes all the preceeding events leading up to the moment go away?

See, the picture of the WTC isn't mean to be literal. It's meant to express disgust at people like the girl who, no doubt, thinks she was such a "rebel" to, once again, CRAM her religion down others' throats at an event in a publicly-owned building.

My reactions to all this are personal and societal as well as constitutional because, as I've noted before, I grew up among these FLAMING ASSHOLES and I think they pervert the message of Christianity in just the same way that Al Q perverts the message of Islam - they use it as a way to try to exercise political and social control over others - and their beliefs are also noxious and anti-rational and anti-intellectual.

So, no, I don't apologize for that photo that someone posted - I wouldn't have posted it, but The Onion, for instance, posts things that are this outrageous all the time. People recognize the outrage in the hyperbole.

If you don't - then you don't.

I'm not going to stand up for that girl - to me, she's part of the problem in this nation.

[Cid_B]

244. You are definitely not up to "The Onion"...

... and it seems best that you not try if that is what you are going to come up with.

Remember... Freedom of... and not freedom from

[RainDog]

246. LOL. I didn't post the photo, genius

I was only commenting on how some people find it appropriate to express their outrage.

If you think that this nation doesn't respect freedom from religious coercion - I guess you're sort of part of the problem.

The funny thing is the xtian apologists for church intrusion here really try for the insults - and they just make me laugh b/c they demonstrate how worthless their arguments are over and over again.

Jefferson:

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting the words “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

Washington, in the Treaty of Tripoli (treaties are the binding law of this land, btw) said

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

And, in this case, a student asked not to have to be coerced to participate in a religious ceremony and those wishes were denied by this girl who used this ceremony to do so. She is, iow, coercing others by her "wish" - because, please, give me a fucking break - this girl knew what she was doing. I hope she gets her ass sued off.

[darkstar3]

248. Remember, freedom of requires freedom from.

[Warren DeMontague]

252. Right, fuck the 1st Amendment, what's really important is that a Christian was insulted, somewhere.

Is it 'hateful enough' for me? Uh, It's NOT THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD, and as much as some might LIKE THIS TO BE another pouty-outrage fest about how Christians in 'Merka are picked on mercilessly by mean ol' Atheists, that's not what it's about.

It's about using a school microphone and a school event to present a clearly unconstitutional endorsement of religion.

You've overplayed your hand with your apologia for the girl and her "who wished to join in" words. ("Sob! Stop picking on her! She was just INVITING the students to Jesus! She wasn't FORCING THEM! ***SOB!***" :eyes:) You clearly don't understand why organized prayers at public school functions like graduations- whether they be student led/student "invited" or whatever the fuck- have consistently been found to been a violation of the Establishment Clause.

So I ask again, and maybe you can stop weeping over the poor unfairness of this sweet, light-filled teenager being subjected to anyone not appreciating her friendly Jesus-sharing offer at the public school graduation ceremony long enough to answer it:

IS THERE A FUCKING CHURCH SHORTAGE IN THIS COUNTRY? REALLY? EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE ALL ALREADY TAX EXEMPT?

Because if there's NOT a FUCKING CHURCH SHORTAGE in this country?

Then TAKE THE FUCKING "INVITATION" TO PRAY TO THE FUCKING CHURCH, WHERE IT FUCKING BELONGS.

[Obamanaut]

64. At the same time trying to 'understand' the other religions. nt

[blondeatlast]

73. I keep looking for them, dammit, but as of yet, I haven't found one.

Y'know, I really want to help my persecuted Xtian brothers and sisters from the vicious and cruel persecution here at DU, but I just don't see it.

Faulty search function? Inability to decipher the proper code words? :shrug:

[Union Scribe]

95. Can you, or anyone, cite any Christian on DU claiming persecution?

See I don't think a lot of you know what the word means. Crying foul over broad-brush smears is not claiming persecution.

Why are you sucking up to people who think you're insane and stupid, anyway?

[Fumesucker]

104. You think we're sucking up?

:rofl:

There's your problem, that's not what we're doing..

[Union Scribe]

222. Who is we? I wasn't replying to you.

[RainDog]

255. blondeatlast - I respect you

and I really do wonder when someone who claims he shares the same faith lies to you by putting words into others' mouths in order to insult you.

I guess it's not enough for some to fight with people who complain about religious intrusion - seems that at least one person here who pretends the message of Jesus is important to him attacks you for what would be the example of the good Samaritan.

This is no road to Jericho, but the verbal sparring can make people's blood rise.

But, honestly, I'm pretty astonished to see this nasty attack from someone who claims to share a faith. What you have done on these threads is demonstrate compassion - which, seems to me, is the most important message of every faith - the golden rule.

Not many of us on this thread or others have bothered with that idea - tho - at the heart of it, the anger from all sides comes down to this, I suppose.

You have done far more to maintain the dignity of your beliefs than anyone who has argued for religious coercion by majority rule. You have set the example of how people come to respect.

Not everyone gets there at the same time, of course.

This is an upsetting time for a lot of people as we see erosions in the separation b/t church and state in health care, education...and even have religious leaders who support policies that hurt the poor.

And so these incidents aren't taken as individual moments - they feel like threats to the right to privacy and to individual conscience.

anyway - hugs.

[Lucian]

109. Awwww....

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

Now you know how the rest of us have been treated for ages.

[Johonny]

25. God I wish you'd rapture these A * faster

I'm sick of them

[piratefish08]

32. Dear Baby Jesus,

Please take them already.

[Obamanaut]

65. There is no baby Jesus. He grew up. nt

[backscatter712]

100. Dear 6 pound 9 ounce Baby Jesus...

Dear Lord baby Jesus, lyin' there in your ghost manger, just lookin' at your Baby Einstein developmental videos, learnin' 'bout shapes and colors...

[truebrit71]

33. Wow, how 'christian' of them...

:eyes:

[immoderate]

36. Moments of silence cry out for a good fart!

What better setting? :shrug:

And being that farts are ALWAYS funny, everybody laughs, even those who scowl at the same time. And god, were he to exist, would smile at this crowning touch to his greatest achievement.

People have faith in god, but they don't trust him. So they try everything, because they don't know what works, and sometimes he lies anyway. So there's silent prayers, private prayers, public prayers, responsive prayers, and there are those who never stop praying. The result is a feeling of justification and relevance. Illusion is reality.

The kid calling for a "spontaneous" prayer was their wild card. A smart kid might recite "Jabberwocky."

Confession: I personally have no patience for rituals. Hate graduations too.

--imm

[Retrograde]

47. Some people think freedom of religion means

that you can be any kind of Protestant you want to be. Some more liberal ones will even concede that you can be a Catholic, also.

[backscatter712]

48. Damon, the ACLU and the FFRF need to sue the fuck out of the school and Laci.

This is a clear-cut violation of the Establishment clause, and a violation of Damon's right to equal protection under the law.

Time to go before a judge!

[Leontius]

249. Better be careful what you wish for

with the current makeup of the court, I'm just saying

[backscatter712]

49. In the previous thread that I started a week back...

One poster mentioned the solution of religious people having convocations or other ceremonies in churches/synagogues/mosques/etc. before the actual graduation ceremony, so the graduation ceremony itself can be completely secular.

That's the correct solution. Churches are more than free to have ceremonies for their members whenever they want, and nobody's suggesting they can't. Perform a blessing, cannibalize your deity, wave dead chickens - do what you want in your religious organization's private ceremony for its members.

But noooooooooo, they have to insist on shoving their religion down everyone's throat at a government event.

[RainDog]

53. yep

that poster understands the issue is not to stop others from having a belief, but to stop others from forcing their beliefs in the public square as tho those beliefs speak for this nation.

they don't. we are a melting pot. who knows how many other kids also did not want this public display of overweening religious piety but simply didn't say anything because they didn't want to get kicked out their houses by their fundie parents?

to pretend this is just about one kid in one school fails to address the larger issue that their are solutions - but those who want to force their religion on others don't like them because it requires respect for others that they demand but refuse to offer themselves.

iow, hypocrites, -- and pharisees with their loud prayers in the public square.

Jesus didn't seem to have any use for them either.

[blondeatlast]

74. That was me--and thank you. It really is just that simple. nt

[Iggo]

52. How very christian of them.

Seriously, I'm sick of these fuckers.

[RainDog]

54. me too

and have been for decades.

I grew up in the south and cannot hardly even stand to visit there anymore.

[Mariana]

63. It's gotten much worse.

It was bad enough when I lived in Alabama in the late 70's and early 80's. Still, I went to middle and high school in Alabama, but we really did pretty much get left alone at school then. We did have one teacher who regularly told students they'd go to hell if they kept on doing this or that thing, but no one minded because it was funny as hell the way she'd do it. We'd provoke her into it because it was an entertaining diversion from her boring class. I'm sure she meant it, but no one took her seriously. So, in this very religious city I lived in, religion was just a non-issue at public school. Folks who wanted their kids to be made to pray and such sent them to private religious schools (and there were a lot of those around) and left the rest of us the hell alone.

Now, I'm in Texas and my daughter is in public high school. Every morning a student recites the Pledge of Allegiance, and she strongly stresses the "UNDER GOD!!!" in it. Obviously, she's doing that with the blessing of the administration. New students are asked where they go to church by other students, and are preached at if they say they don't. Some kids complain that they're being persecuted because they aren't allowed to pray out loud during class time. Lessons on evolution get disrupted. And so on. My kid HATES it. None of this kind of thing went on when I was in school.

[RainDog]

103. I'm from Nashville - the home of the Southern Baptist Convention

and the pastor at my church went on to head the same some years back. many of my family members are fundies and, tho I love them, it's hard to be around their worldview and its intrusive insistence - which is how it was all my life - on to the birth of my two sons and their scandalized realization that my children were not being raised "in a church" (tho, if they had been, it would have been a liberal catholic or episcopalian one) ...My kids have turned out just fine, btw.. so far.. so good...

when I was growing up, the fundamentalist oppression was like a miasma (oh, I love the definition so much I have to include it too- noxious exhalations from putrescent organic matter; poisonous effluvia or germs polluting the atmosphere) ...only I didn't know what it was until I got away from it.

and when I did, I felt like I had been set free from some awful sickness of the soul.

[Nye Bevan]

56. Surely a "6 second delay" like call-in radio shows have would be the solution.

Student speakers' microphones could be set up to electronically delay their speech for 6 seconds. The principal, or some other school official, sits in a control room listening to the speech "live", with their finger hovering over a button, which they can press to cut off the speech if the student goes off-message and thanks God or mentions religion. Thanks to the 6 second delay, the audience would never get to hear the offending religious words.

[The Nexus]

58. The law won't do anything.

Neither will the school

[Warren DeMontague]

61. If the intolerant Atheists would just shut up and go away, there would be no 'problem'.

They need to "suck it up"

:sarcasm:

[aikoaiko]

69. I wonder if they can can suspend the student and delay the awarding of the diploma.

On one hand I agree with the athiest and school for removing the prayer.

On the other hand, I'm a little bit impressed with the civil disobedience of the student.

But as with all acts of civil disobedience its still fine to deliver reasonable consequences.

[RainDog]

86. the "civil disobedience" on the part of the student is supported by parents

it's hardly some big act of civil disobedience when the powers-that-be at home and in public office support shitting on the constitution.

[cleanhippie]

155. Puh-lease! Her actions were NOT civil disobedience.

[LynneSin]

71. it's a shame - they not only ignore the request but how Jesus taught them to pray....

Oddly enough it's the script right before the Lord's Prayer in the bible

Matthew 6:5-8
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Matthew 6:10 starts the Lord's Prayer

[geardaddy]

87. So, what's Matthew 6:9?

Just curious. "Please disregard the earlier verses"?

[LynneSin]

89. This, then, is how you should pray:

:D

[geardaddy]

90. Ah. makes sense.

It's been a while since I've looked at that book.

[LynneSin]

92. I suspect not as long as it's been since many right-wing fundies have

Oh they read the book, they just skip the gospels

[TCJ70]

81. If you don't want to participate then don't...

...no one was forced to pray. No one could force anyone to pray. It's a minute of your life which could have been spent just thinking about something else rather than being upset.

[RainDog]

84. because the constitution is also just a piece of paper

and religious coercion trumps that, apparently, in some minds.

[TCJ70]

Who was coerced?

The school removed the prayer section from the program. This was a student acting on her own.

[TCJ70]

198. Who was coerced?

The school removed the prayer section from the program. This was a student acting on her own.

[fascisthunter]

110. it's about the separation of Church and State

[Obamanaut]

117. Where exactly do we get the phrase "separation of church and state"? nt

[fascisthunter]

123. Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter

"Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/baptist.htm">letter from them written in October 1801."

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.


The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," this led to the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

US Constitution: Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Obamanaut]

125. Are you saying that it is from a letter, and is not in the constitution or

an amendment thereto?

[fascisthunter]

127. read and educate yourself

and if you can't be honest, don't bother me at all.

[Obamanaut]

134. Oh, dear. It *is* from the letter, and is not in the constitution, and the

high school girl was not the government trying to establish a religion.

But she was making a religious expression which she is/was allowed to do, according to that very same portion re establishing one.

[cleanhippie]

156. Are you trying to convince YOURSELF?

You seem to be doing a great job rationalizing.

[trotsky]

168. Yeah, a letter.

From one of the guys who wrote the damn thing, explaining it to CHRISTIANS.

Fuckin Koresh, I wonder sometimes what site I'm on.

[fascisthunter]

203. no shit..

notice how I stopped responding. "Thick as a Brick"

[Leontius]

250. Jefferson was not at the convention, he was in Paris .

[olegramps]

188. Not too bright.

[Selatius]

258. She is free to make a religious expression, just not with pubicly funded microphones/speaker system.

Those were paid for by taxpayers.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. Or, how about take the FUCKING PRAYER TO A CHURCH, WHERE IT BELONGS.

Is there a church shortage in this country? Would the graduation have had less meaning if they had left JEEBUS out of it?

[piratefish08]

219. it actually belongs in a closet. according to Jesus in Matthew.

not that it matters.

rules are arbitrary to this fucking bunch.

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TCJ70]

199. I understand the establishment clause, but thanks for your concern.

Here's the pertinent information: Congress was not involved with this at all and the school removed the prayer portion of the ceremony from the program. This was a student who went off script.

[Obamanaut]

206. AND not a government agent, NOR trying to 'establish' a religion. She might

have acted ill-advisedly, but it doesn't look like she broke a law.

[Warren Stupidity]

167. It was an official state function

there should be no religious ceremonies of any sort within our government at any level. That said, if the student acted on her own and not in an official capacity then it was obnoxious but not a violation of the establishment clause.

And no we won't ignore this crap.

[1awake]

201. exactly n/t

[Selatius]

238. You can pray, just not with publicly funded equipment like the microphone or the speaker system.

She used both, and that's where there is a problem.

[Wait Wut]

83. So sad that none of the nonChristian students didn't stand up...

...after she was done showboating and demand the "moment of silence" that they were promised. Y'know, a moment where every student could pray, meditate or reflect without the drama. I wonder how many of those kids were seriously "praying" and how many were mouthing the words just to make a point. How does their Christ feel about being made a political statement?

Children brainwashed by their parents should not be encouraged to force that brainwashing upon other children.

[Blasphemer]

85. I hope that Mr. Fowler does not feel mocked. What happened is an affirmation that he did the right..

thing and everyone's Constitutional rights were protected. The school clearly understood that sanctioning a religion via the inclusion of a prayer in the ceremony was wrong. Thus, it was removed. Other students seem to understand that separation of church and state does not prevent them from practising their religion as individuals. They may have learned more from Mr. Fowler's actions than they learned in four years of high school.

[geardaddy]

88. ACLU's letter to Bastrop HS

https://www.laaclu.org/PDF_documents/Bastrop_HS_re_Graduation_prayer_052011.pdf

[Initech]

101. I'd expect this kind of behavior out of the Taliban, not this country.

:banghead:

[Fumesucker]

105. Don't live in the Bible Belt, eh?

This sort of thing is a constant refrain down here.

The funny thing is that I went to high school here too about forty years ago and there was no controversy at all about evolution being in the biology textbook.

Things are actually getting worse in this respect, not better.

[Initech]

116. I live in So Cal.

We have some crazy fundamentalists here but I'm sure it's nothing like the south. I've been through the deepest parts of the south. I've been told I'm going to hell on more than one occasion in my life. My reaction is pretty much always the same. .

[callous taoboy]

102. The Taliborn-again need to dry up and blow away.

[Raffi Ella]

106. AMEN.

They weren't mocking that student they were breaking the law. I hope the ACLU or whoever is in charge of investigating these sort of things, sue the School.

[RagAss]

107. You cannot mock an Atheist with a prayer !

[hifiguy]

112. As usual, FZ got it right a long time ago

"My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can."

— Frank Zappa

[TNLib]

120. I'm tired of these intolerant fundies walking all over everyone else

Pray at home or in church and quit ramming it down the rest of our throats!

[rgbecker]

121. Turns out Lord's prayer isn't Christian....

No mention of Son or Holy Ghost....likely a jewish prayer taught to the little jewish boy jesus when he was a boy. Would work for Muslims or anyone with a vision of God as Father.

[Rex]

122. Well I expected nothing less, is anyone really that surprised?

The Age of Insanity reigns supreme.

[Obamanaut]

124. If the Supreme Court ruled in 1983 that an opening prayer in Congress

is not "establishment of a religion", why can there not be a similar prayer at a high school graduation?

[spooky3]

139. google, and other posts on this thread, are your friend

[Obamanaut]

165. You mean I could find the Marsh v. Chambers 1983 decision that says prayer is not 'establishment'?

<snip> The Supreme Court ruled on this issue in Marsh v. Chambers<1> in 1983, finding that the opening prayer is not an "establishment of religion" prohibited by the 1st amendment, but merely "a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country."


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_Congress%27s_opening_prayer_Controversial



And a longer version

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=463&invol=783

[trotsky]

169. Or you could look up the Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe decision.

Far more applicable to this situation.

[Mr. Jefferson]

126. "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

[Ikonoklast]

135. Did someone stop her from going to church? No?

Then she has no right to impose her beliefs on the public, using a taxpayer-funded venue to do so.

None.

Mr. Jefferson, indeed.

Tick, tick, tick...

[Obamanaut]

187. Was she trying to 'establish' a religion? No?

[Mr. Jefferson]

194. She has (had) the right to freely express her beliefs.

You seem to have overlooked the flip side of the 1st Amendment.

[cleanhippie]

157. You need to educate yourself before you embarrass yourself.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fascisthunter]

128. Separation of Church and State

US Constitution: Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[JanMichael]

131. The atheists agnostics pagans and Jews Etcetera should have hummed or yelled...

...yelled loud to enough to obscure the inanity of the drones.

[Heywood J]

132. She was told not to do it.

Punish her the same way as if she had grabbed the mic when it was time to speak and yelled "FUCK!"

[The Nexus]

159. How?

Revoke her diploma?

[Heywood J]

228. However the school would normally punish someone in that circumstance.

Presumably, that's specific to the school, but there are several possible ways since this can't be the first time an outburst has happened.

The two I can think of would be to boot her from the ceremony (she can receive the diploma by mail) or revoke a credit such as civics, if the rules allow, since she obviously hasn't understood the course material (she would then make up the credit in the summer).

But again, this is a decision the school would make based on whatever rules apply locally.

[The Nexus]

234. Way way too late

She did it at the ceremony, and they can't revoke credits since the diploma was already finalized. basically there is nothing anyone can do. I am against what she did, but I won't make a big fuss because there is no resolution to this. So might as well let it go.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spooky3]

138. there's a very simple way of looking at this

if a student chosen as an official representative deviated from the planned remarks and said something like "There is no god. Say it with me", people attending would have been outraged, rightfully, and people learning of it would object on principle. Few if anyone would view it as a student merely exercising free speech rights, given the captive audience and the official capacity of the student. If the school failed to intervene to stop the student from continuing, particularly if they had been warned not to have any such remarks be part of the ceremony, people would rightly object to the inaction on principle.

[Mariana]

142. I can't imagine why anyone would be outraged

if a student chosen as an official representative said something like, "There is no God. Say it with me." What on earth would could they possibly be upset about? It's just a student saying some words they don't agree with and expressing something they don't believe. All they have to do is NOT say it with him, right? Just tune him out and think of something else till it's over. No one would be irreparably harmed by hearing it. Anyone claiming it bothers them and asking that it not be done should be ridiculed, since obviously such a person is a pathetic attention whore and a drama queen who just wants to stir up shit in the community.

:sarcasm:

[cleanhippie]

160. Don't you get it?

Its ok if you are a christian!!!!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

210. Yes, down there they'd be offended

Here on DU, you know there'd be someone applauding them and we'd have a thread as long as this one going back and forth about were they brave, or just an asshole.

Me, I'd take the same stand as I am now......annoyed that some twit like this girl who wants to make it all about them had hijacked something that wasn't all about them.

[spooky3]

211. no, I don't "know" that

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

213. Not one person?

Really? Really?

[Nevernose]

147. We laminate multiple, numbered copies of the graduation script.

And then rehearse the heck out of it. If a single word is altered or added, we cut the microphone and move to the next person. If it's a student who did the alteration, they have to wait until the end of the summer to pick up their diploma (which doesn't really seem like a big deal, but it's quite horrifying for most high school seniors). There's also a contract signed with all participants beforehand agreeing to all thr rules. So far there's never been a single mistake.

[Marr]

149. Boorish behavior, cheered on.

The people who cheered for this ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[Bluebear]

150. Including those here who say 'well, nobody was forced to pray with her'

The US cannot survive if people don't know what makes it the US.

[Marr]

151. Oddly enough, they seem to be same people who complain about anti-Christian remarks here at DU.

This is essentially the same thing, only 100 times worse. But now they're excusing it. It's very disappointing, and I for one am not going to give those complaints a lick of credence in the future. If you'll excuse this real-life bullying, you've got no business playing martyr about the dialogue on internet message board.

[Mariana]

154. There were people flat out lying about this student

on some of the earlier threads about this story. It wasn't enough to simply say they disagreed with him and they thought the prayer should be allowed. Several made up lies about what he did and what he said, trying to make him out to be a rotten kid who deserved everything he got. It was sickening.

[darkstar3]

209. ^THIS^

Precisely. :thumbsup:

[KinMd]

153. Lets see what the Bible says..

"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
Matthew 6:5-7
New American Standard Bible

[The Nexus]

158. To put it bluntly.....

the girl saying the prayer in the video basically told the ACLU to "go fuck themselves and they can't touch me".

[cleanhippie]

161. Fortunately, they can.

And I hope they touch her, her parents, the school, and the district deep in their wallets.

[Cid_B]

212. Cracks me up...

All we hear is "Oh NOES! If we put more money in the EDUCATION our kids wouldn't be so damn dumb!"

Then you get calls hoping that someone sues and takes money from the school system because someone hear some naughty words.

[cleanhippie]

214. Do you really think its that simple?

This is a much bigger issue than "hearing some naughty words." Too bad you cannot see that.

[Cid_B]

215. Of course it is...

... but I can still laugh at the irony.

"Gosh, you know what would make that school system even better? If we made them devote time and resources away from books and teachers and gave it to some lawyers over a long period of time."

[cleanhippie]

225. Blatantly ignoring the law in order to further a religious cause is good grounds for a lawsuit.

Like I said, you can choose to be blind to the real issue here if you want to. Ignorance is a personal choice.

[The Nexus]

235. Sue her for what? nt

[The Nexus]

223. Actually, she does have a point in "touching her"

If she is 18 at the time of grad and she can't afford the the claim if she lost (even after asset checks), I am 90% sure that the court would toss out her part in the suit.

[JVS]

162. Rude but I don't see how the establishment clause is violated by this.

What she did was essentially disrupting a school activity in order to make a statement, not unlike Code Pink does with other governmental functions. Unless collusion between the school administration and the student can be demonstrated, or one is willing to consider the student an agent of the state, the establishment clause hasn't been violated.

[stranger81]

163. Does it change your view to know that the same student

did exactly the same thing in a school ceremony the night before graduation?

[JVS]

164. That would point to collusion between the student and administration.

My view remains the same, only the administration has the ability to violate the establishment clause. The student doesn't. If she did this the night before and the school did nothing, then they are responsible.

Is that what happened?

[trotsky]

170. Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe

Feel free to join the court's dissenting members on that one if you wish.

[JVS]

171. Can you demonstrate a policy? The girl went against the policy of holding a moment of silence.

"It ruled that a policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at high school football games violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment."- Wiki

[trotsky]

172. Did the school stop her?

I can't believe that so many Democrats don't give a crap about religious coercion, as long as it's the majority faith getting to do the coercing.

[JVS]

173. Is it their job to stop her? If so, what measures does the law deem appropriate?

Should they have shot her?

[trotsky]

174. Glad to see you're serious.

Enjoy your majority religious status. I'm sure it feels great. Fuck everyone else - they can just shut up and deal.

[JVS]

175. Since you seem perfectly capable of putting the words in my mouth for me, you can feel free to...

continue the discussion without me.

[trotsky]

178. Perhaps you could clearly explain how your position on this incident...

is not summed up by saying that you think others should "shut up and deal." Maybe you just prefer softer phrasing? "Don't make a fuss, ignore the prayer."

[Fumesucker]

176. How long would it have taken them to shut her off if she had started a Satanist prayer?

We all know the reaction would have been totally different..

[JVS]

179. And then they might have been in trouble, it turns out

"Prayer at Graduation

School officials may not mandate or organize prayer at graduation or select speakers for such events in a manner that favors religious speech such as prayer. Where students or other private graduation speakers are selected on the basis of genuinely neutral, evenhanded criteria and retain primary control over the content of their expression, however, that expression is not attributable to the school and therefore may not be restricted because of its religious (or anti-religious) content. To avoid any mistaken perception that a school endorses student or other private speech that is not in fact attributable to the school, school officials may make appropriate, neutral disclaimers to clarify that such speech (whether religious or nonreligious) is the speaker's and not the school's."

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html

[Fumesucker]

183. You think it's really possible to have genuinely neutral and even handed behavior?

When it comes to religion in the USA?

Tell me again how many atheist politicians there are in this country?

[spooky3]

208. Three points:

1) What exactly in the quote you included would in any way differentiate how a satanic prayer vs. a non-satanic prayer vs. an atheist assertion should be treated? It appears to me to say that by law all of them would have to be treated in the same way.

2) She was not invited to speak, as a valedictorian or student leader might be chosen, to express views. Instead, she was invited "to introduce the moment of silence." Her deviation from this invitation, in light of what she and others knew about the prior events concerning the canceled prayer, could clearly be seen as "disruptive" which is one limitation on "free speech" in schools. This situation is entirely different from the example in the guidelines you cited.

3) Did you read the final sentence of the paragraph you quoted? Exactly what disclaimers did the school offer before or after the student's speech? Clearly the ed.gov policy anticipated a very different situation, where someone was invited to share views (not introduce a moment of silence), the school reviews the speech in advance, and states when introducing the speaker that she or he is expressing his or her own views and not those of the school.

[Mariana]

181. You mean you don't believe they would have

quietly and respectfully allowed her to finish a Satanist prayer, the same way they did with this one? Of course they would have.

:sarcasm:

[spooky3]

204. Of course it's their job, and it's easily done. What if a student rep. began swearing or

engaging in racist hate speech after the school was specifically warned not to permit that behavior? what if she or he started yelling "fire! fire! run for your lives!"? There are constitutional limits on free speech (read some of Justice Stevens' opinions for some examples), and no reasonable person would have said the school officials should have sat there doing nothing had those events occurred.

You'd better believe that two officials would have quickly taken the student by each arm and escorted him or her off the stage. Given the warning the school had, a school admin. that actually didn't want to have a disrupted graduation and wanted to respect the law would have prepared by telling all speakers about the the warning and what was expected of them, and even had security on hand in case there were any incidents.

[Mariana]

177. Believe it.

There have been some Christians on these threads who have said they think the coerced prayer is wrong. Not many, though, just a few. There were many more attacking the student personally, calling him names and telling lies about him.

I think it's likely that some of the teachers, administrators, and other adults involved with the high school and the graduation are Democrats. Yet, apparently not a one of them saw fit to do anything about the official prayer that was originally planned, or to support the atheist student who did do something about it.

[trotsky]

180. Yep, there are a disappointingly tiny number of Christians...

who feel not only does this violate church-state separation, it's wholly inappropriate to broadcast their faith like this. The whole Matthew 6:5-6 thing.

If only there were a lot more of those Christians, instead of the ones who applaud this incident as someone exercising their free speech but insist they and their religion are being savagely attacked if someone posts to an anonymous Internet message board that they think belief in gods is irrational.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spooky3]

205. in case anyone can't find the simple wiki description, here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Independent_School_Dist._v._Doe

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TCJ70]

200. Why should the school get sued? n/t

[Goblinmonger]

247. Violation of the establishment clause.

Did you really not know that?

[TCJ70]

251. The school didn't do anything wrong...

...in fact, they tried to accommodate the complaint against the official prayer by removing it from the program. A single student cannot violate the establishment clause.

[Goblinmonger]

256. They needed to stop it when it started

It's their mike. And she was operating in an official capacity for them (she was introducing the moment of silence not giving her own speech) and they are responsible for what she says/does. When they saw that she was violating the ruling, they needed to cut her mike. And if they aren't planning for that contingency in their commencements then they are lying.

[Le Taz Hot]

191. I find I must evoke Jon Stewart here.

"Lacy, those voices in your head? Not always God. :shrug:

[WatsonT]

217. I don't see the connection

Why the need to pray for such an event?

It took gods will to get you to graduate?

Seems like getting pissed off that your waiter doesn't say a prayer for you before a meal. You can do it on your own time.

[sudopod]

218. Oh ye of little faith.

[Mariana]

227. She wanted everyone to SEE her pray.

She can't do that on her own time. What's the point of praying privately, anyway? That's only between yourself and God, and what good is that? Isn't it much better to pray when you're up on a stage and have a microphone, and lots of people are watching and listening to you? Now, everyone knows how pious she is, especially since she did it twice, at two separate events. She's probably getting all kinds of recognition from her family, church and community for being such a godly young woman because she did that. That's the connnection.

My sarcasm is not directed at you, Watson. I don't believe you feel the way I described. Just wanted to make sure you know that. :)

[piratefish08]

221. why does God need so much public defending by mere mortals, anyway??

shouldn't "omnipotent" be enough all by it's lonesome?

:shrug:

[Lucian]

226. What does an imaginary being have to do with a high school graduation?

I hope that student gets punished.

[and-justice-for-all]

260. gawd, Huh, what is it good for? absolutely nothin'...nt

[Horse with no Name]

230. They told us before we graduated

that if we did ANYTHING inappropriate during the ceremony, they would tear up our diploma and we would be failed in our Senior year.

This should happen in this instance.

[Mariana]

232. Does the administration consider what she did inappropriate?

Remember, they had originally planned to have a prayer at the graduation - that's what the whole flap started over. Clearly someone important is in favor of prayers at graduation.

The way I understand it, the atheist student quietly sent an e-mail saying he wanted the originally planned prayer to be cancelled. Then someone (or someones) decided to tell the public about it, after which the atheist student became the target of harassment and threats. That's when we heard about it. (If I'm wrong about the sequence of events here, someone please correct me.)

So, who was it that maliciously outed the atheist student? Was it the same people who decide what's appropriate for a graduation ceremony?

[Horse with no Name]

245. It doesn't matter

There was an AGREEMENT that there would be a moment of silence that was actually suggested by this particular girl after the threat that the ACLU would be contacted.

The Atheist acted in good faith and took them at their word that there would be a moment of silence instead of prayer and was satisfied with that and did not get the ACLU involved.

It seems pretty clear to me that the girl showed clear deception here. She suggested a moment of silence while probably all along planning on doing what she did.

The school district was remiss in not laying out a clear mandate on what would or wouldn't be allowed. Perhaps they were ALL in on the plan--assuming that once it was done, oh well, whathcha gonna do about it now?

[underpants]

240. REBELS!!! seriously when will Christians ever get a break in this country?

They are VICTIMS I tell you

[KansDem]

243. I would have broken into a chorus of "Love for Sale."

When the only sound in the empty street,
Is the heavy tread of the heavy feet
That belong to a lonesome cop
I open shop.
When the moon so long has been gazing down
On the wayward ways of this wayward town.
That her smile becomes a smirk,
I go to work.

Love for sale,
Appetizing young love for sale.
Love that's fresh and still unspoiled,
Love that's only slightly soiled,
Love for sale.
Who will buy?
Who would like to sample my supply?
Who's prepared to pay the price,
For a trip to paradise?
Love for sale
Let the poets pipe of love
in their childish way,
I know every type of love
Better far than they.
If you want the thrill of love,
I've been through the mill of love;
Old love, new love
Every love but true love
Love for sale.

Appetising young love for sale.
If you want to buy my wares.
Follow me and climb the stairs
Love for sale.
Love for sale.

Cole Porter

Always a crowd-pleaser at any public "moment of silence."

[and-justice-for-all]

259. The school should be fined.nt